Microsoft is changing the game. How will Apple and M chips fair?

[deconstruct60]

No one suggest that some of the tech is new but rather how Microsoft is engaging it this time around.

As I mentioned in a reply above this is detached from the history that Microsoft had with Windows Phone (and Win RT). Microsoft has been trying and in typical fashion screwing-up the first couple of iterations. This is not a response to Apple because they actually started long before Apple did. If Apple had tried to stuff the major of mac OS GUI into iOS then Apple would have wondered 'lost in the woods' for years too.

This iteration is far more in line as a response to ARM/Apple.

Microsoft was on Arm for laptops in 2012! That is eight years before Apple shipped Arm laptops. Long before the M1 was ever even initailly speced out; let alone designed. If anything it would be the other way around.

More so this iteration Microsoft stops stumbling and bumbling along. ( which as stated before multiple versions until Microsoft tends to get anything substantive "correct" is rather their modus operandi. ).

Whether Apple did a high end Arm core or not Arm was going to need to transition to doing higher margin server and "X-class" cores anyway because as they saturated the low end and mobile phone markets there would be no growth. Could things have gone faster if Qualcomm had not nuke'd their internal Arm core design team to fend off Broadcomm (and chase after server cores)? Probably. Even more probably if Microsoft (and a few others) had front loaded some R&D dollars to get it done.

Part of Microsoft's failing around problem is that they are off trying to do lots of things for everybody. Competing with AWS (Azure), for a while competing with Android/iOS (ran off and bought the remnants of Nokia phone at one point) . Playstation (Xbox ) . VR headsets . Google ( Bing) . They just do tons more than what Apple does.

The other major factor is the Microsoft is trying to do things with partners to do a large , diverse ecosystem growth. Apple is significantly throwing partners out the window and making iMacs to iPad Pro specs (thinnest possible and Ethernet squeezed out into a 'dongle' ). Microsoft has a bigger "herding cats" problem.

Qualcomm getting 'fired' from doing future Apple cellular radios is part of this "NPU" labeling shift. The radio less M-series Macs (so far) isn't a major driver of that.

 

[MayaUser]

They won't ditch the x86 architecture, but they will more likely have two Windows versions (ARM & x86).

they will have? they already have
And and I felt it on my skin how bad the surface pro x was
This news are just brand news for people that didnt know already that Microsoft is trying this for at least 3 years and thats what Microsoft wants, to renew the old, failed projects
Probably Microsoft after mobileOS failing, windows rt, vista , windows 10s etc they will sooner than later retire the surface duo as well
Microsoft had a lot of failed projects in the last decade or so

 

[jav6454]

they will have? they already have
And and I felt it on my skin how bad the surface pro x was
This news are just brand news for people that didnt know already that Microsoft is trying this for at least 3 years and thats what Microsoft wants, to renew the old, failed projects

Right now, their main focus has been on x86-64, not both. With this move, it signals that Windows will have two different versions for two different architectures.

In a sense, it's a slap in the face to Intel and AMD.

 

[MayaUser]

Right now, their main focus has been on x86-64, not both. With this move, it signals that Windows will have two different versions for two different architectures.

In a sense, it's a slap in the face to Intel and AMD.

when they release the surface pro x the same way the users reacted..."this move it signals that microsoft is serious and can make a huge step into arm"
Time will tell, but i was here before

 

[exoticSpice]

aking iMacs to iPad Pro specs (thinnest possible and Ethernet squeezed out into a 'dongle' ). Microsoft has a bigger "herding cats" problem.

The 24" iMac is more a lifestyle "fun" product. If you want a proper Mac desktop the Mac Studio got all the ports and is not by any means "thin".

 

[exoticSpice]

he radio less M-series Macs (so far) isn't a major driver of that.

Apple has radios/modem for 5G on iPad M1's. I would think Apple wants to move to their own 5G tech before they put it on macs.

 

[Mike Boreham]

This is actually pretty good for Apple too. It may enable virtualisation of Windows for consumers will a proper license (not depending on Insider builds) and, if they partner with Apple, the return of Bootcamp. In terms of software, it opens another door for developers to compile for ARM and may facilitate porting of software to/from Mac.
Interesting times ahead

Just to update a small point here....Silicon macs have not depended on Insider builds since last year. Release version Windows 11 is downloadable from Microsoft and activates with a Win 10 license.

 

[thenewperson]

eg. being distracted to be the new Netflix

...is this something people are actually worried about? Seems like a very dumb concern.

 

[altaic]

Is this clickbait time or what?

Yes.

 

[altaic]

The only worthwhile recent content they had was the Studio teardown.

In which he spent most of the time just waving the thing around. I had to step through frame by frame to actually figure out anything of significance. Their business is rhetoric.

They have a lot to learn, yet they seem to be posing as some sort of authority— and thus they get recognition from these sorts of trolls. Welcome to South Park 2016.

 

[stanleystf]

When will these changes affect Microsoft products? I've been thinking about getting a Surface Pro 8. Do you think I should wait for Surface pro 9?

 

[Bodhitree]

The thing is, Microsoft do not have an Arm product capable of competing with x86 product lines. They’re waiting to see whether Qualcomm’s Nuvia-based architecture ends up being sufficiently capable, but the snapdragon processors have a geekbench 5 score of 1100 single-threaded / 3300 multi-threaded, which isn’t really good enough compared to M1’s 1700 / 7700. It’s not that different a situation from when Apple was putting out their Developer kits for Arm macs with an A12Z.

Project Volterra seems to me to be an admission that Qualcomm’s chips do not cut the mustard compared to Alder Lake and Ryzen 6000/7000, and an attempt to reframe the debate.

 

[Kaikidan]

My only hopes with windows is that if a future migration to ARM and a fresh start happens, that it at least bring consistency to the plataform, which currently is a clusterfreak of madness, 3 types of overlapping UI, 2 entirely control panel interfaces with diferent options, some apps that follow new UI design and some that still runs old windows UI...

Recently upgraded my keyboard at home and decided to bring my old MX Keys to work, since it's still a pretty good device. problem is, work computer uses ABNT2, keyboard is ENGLISH-International. don't find the option to change layout, search google, instructions are deprecated, menu changed, it's subdivided in two now. Fiddle a little more, has to download additional language support for a simple keyboard layout change. On mac you just connect the keyboard and the keyboard detection assistant shows up, or else it's just a few clicks away in the system preferences. That's my major problens with windows, how convoluted it is with years and years of legacy baggage.

 

[Mr47]

This is good as it will eventually push 3rd parties to also develop ARM versions of their software which is good for Apple as then making a Apple Silicon variant will be less intense.

 

[leman]

This is good as it will eventually push 3rd parties to also develop ARM versions of their software which is good for Apple as then making a Apple Silicon variant will be less intense.

Different system APIs and standards (and to a lesser degrees compilers) are a much bigger hurdle to software porting than CPU architectures.

 

[jav6454]

when they release the surface pro x the same way the users reacted..."this move it signals that microsoft is serious and can make a huge step into arm"
Time will tell, but i was here before

Well, it was a signal. However, it was so poorly implemented that any momentum fizzled.

 

[Danfango]

As always, Microsoft try and enter an already entrenched market way too late while theirs is shrinking because they are investing in the new market, not the old one. This annoys customers who are fed up of using rotten broken dung and move off to other pastures (Google and Apple).

If they concentrated on their core competency, which are fundamentally good products, then they'd be fine.

Open comment to the companies:

Microsoft -> clean windows up, clean office up, fix all the bugs, clean the legacy stink out of it and for gods sake stop investing in UI rewrites that never get finished. Forget ARM - retain your existing customers!

Intel -> concentrate more on value and efficiency. Your stuff is too expensive, your GPUs suck, your power envelope is comedic and you are too busy running marketing than technical. Then Microsoft might want you as a vendor again...

 

[phrehdd]

It took you 11 minutes to read my comment? Oh my…

In respect to the video, I stopped watching Maxims stuff a while ago. He is a sensationalist who too often talks about stuff he has little clue about. The only worthwhile recent content they had was the Studio teardown.

Nah, I simply skimmed through your rant. You stopped watching yet you said you watched a one with a teardown. Candidly, you simply could have stated the above rather than being rude out the door. I suppose these days that is asking too much.

 

[mi7chy]

When will these changes affect Microsoft products? I've been thinking about getting a Surface Pro 8. Do you think I should wait for Surface pro 9?

I'd wait. Hoping for Surface Pro 9 with Ryzen 7000U/6000U APU to upgrade from a Surface Pro X which is nice but ARM native software availability is rather limited compared to x64.

 

[leman]

Nah, I simply skimmed through your rant. You stopped watching yet you said you watched a one with a teardown. Candidly, you simply could have stated the above rather than being rude out the door. I suppose these days that is asking too much.

I understand and admit that my reply sounded at least a bit confrontational. Alas, there is a reason for that. Your post appeared to me overly sensationalist and lacking rational base. You make it sound like Microsoft is finally joining the fray with some sort of new revolutionary technology, while in fact they have been trying (and repeatedly failing) in this marked for the last decade, and their competitors have been shipping products with advanced NPUs for years. Maybe Microsoft product will be good this time, maybe not (their track record and poor software transitions do not make me optimistic), but it's them who is catching up, not other vendors. In the consumer space, Apple has been shipping a well rounded product since 2020. In the datacenter machine learning space, Nvidia reigns supreme with advanced ML accelerator designs, and they have an ARM-based product with fast CPU/GPU interconnect accounted last year. I mean, it's great that Microsoft is also pursuing these kind of devices, but they are vey far from "changing the game" — they are just desperately trying to jump onto the moving train before it leaves them behind.

And furthermore, as proof for your sensationalist story you are linking to a video of a sensationalist YouTube who is known for his arbitrary interpretations, wild perpetuation of myths as well as blatant misrepresentation of the technical side of things. I mean, just take his story about the alleged "TLB flaw" — it's blatantly clear that he doesn't know what a TLB is and how it works.

So yeah, if I sounded annoyed, it because I was. There were other, better ways to frame your post instead of going full sensationalist, and you could certainly have put more effort in it than just sending us off to watch a video rant of a guy with a proven track record of misunderstanding technology.

 

[jdb8167]

It took you 11 minutes to read my comment? Oh my…

In respect to the video, I stopped watching Maxims stuff a while ago. He is a sensationalist who too often talks about stuff he has little clue about. The only worthwhile recent content they had was the Studio teardown.

For example, he thinks that the Steam Deck uses Arm when in fact it uses an AMD CPU.

 

[Mr47]

For example, he thinks that the Steam Deck uses Arm when in fact it uses an AMD CPU.

Yeah you can make fun of others, but at least they try and promote Apple, yes it is also for making money but still better then be negative on internet and not achieving anything. They have good videos and bad videos, no need to point out as nobody is perfect.

 

[mi7chy]

You can still promote without resorting to BS.

 

[jdb8167]

Yeah you can make fun of others, but at least they try and promote Apple, yes it is also for making money but still better then be negative on internet and not achieving anything. They have good videos and bad videos, no need to point out as nobody is perfect.

Or you know, he could have spent 30 seconds on Google and not made himself sound stupid.

 

[Mr47]

Or you know, he could have spent 30 seconds on Google and not made himself sound stupid.

Who cares, it about the whole idea and I’m happy he tries. Seeing this forum the negative stuff is like 90% of the content but that is the internet I feel sorry for them.