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AltecX

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
550
1,391
Philly
Apple is closer to the truth than PC...i never got those claims...not in my surface or dell laptops
Light usage always was around 60% of the claims, while in heavy duty close to 2 hours
Light usage on M1 SoC i always got around 80-90% from that claim in light usage and around 4 hours on heavy duty
I saw an big Alienware that can also be treated as a desktop thanks to the weight and dimensions that never reach more than 1 hour and a half of heavy duty...
PC manufactures cannot do more since the dGpu are more hungry and the battery inside for most laptops tops 100-watt-hour lithium-polymer battery
Because they have tiny batteries because they have massive room dedicated for the GPU, CPU, their cooling and the ability to swap out more components than any of the Mac options do, often including adding more than 1 drive. On huge devices like that a battery is more of a "battery backup" than a power source.

There is a reason that machine is referred to as a "desktop replacement"
 
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Alameda

macrumors 65816
Jun 22, 2012
1,276
870
Well, first of all, whatever Microsoft is doing, they'll be facing an even larger problem, which is backward compatibility and emulation. Apple with Rosetta 2 is already considered "transparent," yet many still have problems, and that's with the limited and highly controlled mac ecosystem and Apple already ditching 32bit completely. Windows is a completely different beast, where not only full 32bit compatibility is expected, there are still even expected compatibility bits with MS-DOS. Add on the numerous drivers.

Making the hardware is easy. MS already tried it multiple times, since Windows RT days. The problem is, Qualcomm, MS' exclusive partner, is not even giving the performance good enough to compete with x86.

And don't forget that Apple already had a huge head start. The only thing that will allow competitors to gain advantage is if Apple stumbled themselves (eg. being distracted to be the new Netflix).

It's nothing unexpected that ARM is the next evolution for the personal computers. Mobile phones and Apple have shown it. Windows will get there, but it would probably take another 5 to 10 years. MS is still having problems to force devs to even do UWP. And then there's the enterprise customers, which is actually Microsoft's main bread and butter, and they're the ones having highly customized legacy anything.

So, good to know, but don't expect much. Heck, I expected the Windows PC and laptops market to have a shakedown with the M1 release, yet everything is still more of the same. 5 years later, maybe, but not anytime soon.
EXACTLY!
“Hi, I’m Microsoft. Ignore the 20,000 pound elephant in the room.”

Apple made a clean cut from x86, and they built Rosetta2, and gave developers years to migrate, etc.

Microsoft is making no clean break at all. There will continue to be x86 Intel and AMD laptops, desktops and servers for… well, at least for the foreseeable future, and probably for the unforeseeable as well! This means there will be new versions of both Arm and x86 apps. Not a very rosy compatibility landscape.
 

phrehdd

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 25, 2008
4,498
1,455
EXACTLY!
“Hi, I’m Microsoft. Ignore the 20,000 pound elephant in the room.”

Apple made a clean cut from x86, and they built Rosetta2, and gave developers years to migrate, etc.

Microsoft is making no clean break at all. There will continue to be x86 Intel and AMD laptops, desktops and servers for… well, at least for the foreseeable future, and probably for the unforeseeable as well! This means there will be new versions of both Arm and x86 apps. Not a very rosy compatibility landscape.
Kind of hard (for me) to see Apple and Microsoft and equal competitors given that Microsoft is in more markets than Apple. Consider Azure cloud and Microsoft's efforts to push more ARM processors. Perhaps they will offer VMs for Intel based applications and OS. If that turns out to be the case, wouldn't it make sense that Microsoft "encourage" businesses to move over to Azure and use the VMs for non-native ARM apps and OS until such time? As for desktop/laptop - I would be curious to see how Intel morphs and AMD. This is not an opinion that this is what is going to happen but perhaps a reasonable scenario. Thoughts?
 

Tagbert

macrumors 603
Jun 22, 2011
6,256
7,281
Seattle
Well, that sucks. I was trying to not get Office for Mac as I have read several bad reviews about M1 support.
Office 365 works quite as well on M1 Macs as on the Intel ones now. Of course in the first 9 months or so, running on Rosetta the apps were no faster and were a little unstable but once the Apple Silicon versions came out last fall, the Office apps were find and run faster than on an equivalent Intel Mac.

Have you seen any recent reviews that claim problems?
 

AltecX

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
550
1,391
Philly
I fee
Teams rubs horribly everywhere. I try to avoid it like a plague.
lts like the only place I see people say this is online. I've supported Teams for multiple companies for years and it's never been an issue in any of those environments. The only "big" issue I've encountered in the probable 600+ installations I've managed are occasionally status synchronizing between phone and desktop or due to a home user with ****** web latency.

0 reported or experiences calling or video issues, same for meetings, chats fine, editing shared documents fine, wiki features fine.

It almost like either these issues DONT exist and people just find it 'cool" to bash Teams, or for some reason people just rather complain online than report them to their IT, as I know many other IT people that also manage Teams and all have the same feedback as me: People complain online but they have almost 0 issues reported to them regarding Teams from users no matter what OS/system they are using.
 
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StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
1,133
2,270
Kind of hard (for me) to see Apple and Microsoft and equal competitors given that Microsoft is in more markets than Apple.
If you focus on all of Microsoft versus the Mac, that's true. However, all Apple devices run on ARM, so limiting the discussion to the Mac doesn't make sense. Especially since you go on to add Microsoft cloud services to the discussion.

I will agree they aren't equal competitors since Apple is twice as big. In fiscal 2021, Microsoft had $168 billion in revenue while Apple had $365.8 billion in revenue.

Apple silicon powers a range of devices running iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS, building an ecosystem of seamlessly integrated devices stretching into markets Microsoft failed in years ago.
 
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phrehdd

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Original poster
Oct 25, 2008
4,498
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If you focus on all of Microsoft versus the Mac, that's true. However, all Apple devices run on ARM, so limiting the discussion to the Mac doesn't make sense. Especially since you go on to add Microsoft cloud services to the discussion.

I will agree they aren't equal competitors since Apple is twice as big. In fiscal 2021, Microsoft had $168 billion in revenue while Apple had $365.8 billion in revenue.

Apple silicon powers a range of devices running iOS, iPadOS, macOS, tvOS, and watchOS, building an ecosystem of seamlessly integrated devices stretching into markets Microsoft failed in years ago.
I appreciate what you are saying. My thoughts were more about how Microsoft is pushing forward with ARM in other markets and thus, difficult to compare. Consider as I mentioned the use of ARM in their cloud services and the drive to further convince companies to include or switch over entirely to Azure. Legacy items might require VMs that are migrated from Intel based machines. Like other cloud services, not only would they replace Intel systems that preexist but also expand. I guess the overlap between Microsoft and Apple might be a topic unto itself and the disparate areas of each that both engage ARM as another discussion. Your thoughts, please.
 

StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
1,133
2,270
I guess the overlap between Microsoft and Apple might be a topic unto itself and the disparate areas of each that both engage ARM as another discussion. Your thoughts, please.
The title of your post "Microsoft is changing the game. How will Apple and M chips fair?" isn't actually discussed in your first post, which mentions Intel, AMD, and NVidia as potential losers.

I think that's because your post title is made up of two unrelated sentences. Regarding the first sentence, Microsoft isn't changing anything about Apple's game. I'm not sure that with the launch of a developer kit Microsoft is even changing their own game – it's certainly not a revolution. Which brings us to the second sentence, and the fact that nothing Microsoft does will affect how Apple (and Apple silicon) fares because they are in separate markets with only a tiny overlap.
 

phrehdd

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Original poster
Oct 25, 2008
4,498
1,455
The title of your post "Microsoft is changing the game. How will Apple and M chips fair?" isn't actually discussed in your first post, which mentions Intel, AMD, and NVidia as potential losers.

I think that's because your post title is made up of two unrelated sentences. Regarding the first sentence, Microsoft isn't changing anything about Apple's game. I'm not sure that with the launch of a developer kit Microsoft is even changing their own game – it's certainly not a revolution. Which brings us to the second sentence, and the fact that nothing Microsoft does will affect how Apple (and Apple silicon) fares because they are in separate markets with only a tiny overlap.
I guess there is a bit of a disconnect (for me here).

Two items - the original post and then my last response which was to a specific post of yours.

Microsoft is moving towards ARM for certain purposes and in turn, that does possibly impact Intel and AMD in certain tech spaces (as I mentioned, Azure). Would it be possible for Microsoft to, with partners, develop a chip that can be a counterpart to M chips that has a better cost and performance ratio and try to push it into more mainstream devices, possibly. I left the original message entirely open and was not advocating anything. If people find the video or source of the video suspect, they are welcome of course to say so and often with their own take on why. Next time, I won't be so direct and generic at the same time as it was taken to be hype which was an error on my part. I'll still continue to see how things unfold over the next 2-5 years for Microsoft, Intel, and AMD in their respective markets. (I am sorry if my response here is a bit awkward... waiting out a health challenge as it were.)
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,677
Which brings us to the second sentence, and the fact that nothing Microsoft does will affect how Apple (and Apple silicon) fares because they are in separate markets with only a tiny overlap.

I would disagree. The development we are discussing here (Microsoft pushing Microsoft-made premium personal portables and PCs) is directly related to the market where Microsoft and Apple compete: premium personal portables and PCs :)
 

TTYS0

macrumors member
Jul 31, 2010
43
98
Nashville, TN
Consider as I mentioned the use of ARM in their cloud services and the drive to further convince companies to include or switch over entirely to Azure.
In the context of the Mac, and M1, that doesn't have much relevance. Those Azure ARM instance are for metered servers, and targeted to compete with things like AWS Graviton. What happens in the "infinitely scalable" cloud space shouldn't be used as any kind of signal for what is going on in the consumer space. The needs and requirements are completely different, as is the scale.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
Mostly relating to Teams.
Teams isn't Office just like Visual Studio Code isn't Visual Studio. Completely different product with a completely different code base. The Microsoft marketing dept likes to confuse. Reminds me of:

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy describes the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as: "A bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."

 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
In the context of the Mac, and M1, that doesn't have much relevance. Those Azure ARM instance are for metered servers, and targeted to compete with things like AWS Graviton. What happens in the "infinitely scalable" cloud space shouldn't be used as any kind of signal for what is going on in the consumer space. The needs and requirements are completely different, as is the scale.
Of course cloud resources are only "infinitely scalable" if you have an "infinite" amount of money.
 
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jav6454

macrumors Core
Nov 14, 2007
22,303
6,264
1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
Teams isn't Office just like Visual Studio Code isn't Visual Studio. Completely different product with a completely different code base. The Microsoft marketing dept likes to confuse. Reminds me of:

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy describes the Marketing Department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation as: "A bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."

I would like to agree, but since it’s bundled in with Office.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
I would like to agree, but since it’s bundled in with Office.
Being bundled with Office does not make it part of Office and doesn’t mean someone should avoid the Mac version of Office and install Windows on their Mac because they want to use Word or PowerPoint on a Mac. There are good reasons for some power users to avoid MacOS Excel but those users should probably also stick to Windows on Intel. There are other products bundled with Office that aren’t even available on the Mac but for someone just using the core Office products that does not matter.
 
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phrehdd

Contributor
Original poster
Oct 25, 2008
4,498
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In the context of the Mac, and M1, that doesn't have much relevance. Those Azure ARM instance are for metered servers, and targeted to compete with things like AWS Graviton. What happens in the "infinitely scalable" cloud space shouldn't be used as any kind of signal for what is going on in the consumer space. The needs and requirements are completely different, as is the scale.
Those servers are likely to handle VMs so yes, there is some relevance given that the migration of businesses are often of OS and applications that work with Intel. I am keenly aware they are a response to AWS. Running more efficient and cooler, the ARM processors appear to be good candidates to replace far more of Azure than what you mentioned. The latter, simply conjecture.
 

StudioMacs

macrumors 65816
Apr 7, 2022
1,133
2,270
The development we are discussing here (Microsoft pushing Microsoft-made premium personal portables and PCs)
Except that’s not what Microsoft announced:

As we look forward to what is next and how we can further innovate in this space, we are excited to announce Project Volterra, a new device powered by the Snapdragon compute platform. With Project Volterra* you will be able to explore many AI scenarios via the new Qualcomm Neural Processing SDK for Windows toolkit announced today by Qualcomm Technologies.

And because we expect to see NPUs being built into most, if not all, future computing devices, we’re going to make it easy for developers to leverage these new capabilities, by baking support for NPUs into the end-to-end Windows platform.

Microsoft announced software support for an AI toolkit from Qualcomm with a baked in NPU that runs on the snapdragon platform. I don’t see how that changes the game for Apple, affects Apple silicon development, or determines how the M series chips fare. If anything, it seems like a response to Apple rather than a challenge.
 
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Bodhitree

macrumors 68020
Apr 5, 2021
2,085
2,216
Netherlands
EXACTLY!
“Hi, I’m Microsoft. Ignore the 20,000 pound elephant in the room.”

Apple made a clean cut from x86, and they built Rosetta2, and gave developers years to migrate, etc.

Microsoft is making no clean break at all. There will continue to be x86 Intel and AMD laptops, desktops and servers for… well, at least for the foreseeable future, and probably for the unforeseeable as well! This means there will be new versions of both Arm and x86 apps. Not a very rosy compatibility landscape.

Microsoft build on backwards compatibility on the OS level, unlike Apple. For them, the ARM version is just a hedge in case ARM turns out to be architecturally so superior that the market moves to ARM in preference over the x86 family. They will just wait things out and let the market forces make a decision between instruction sets.

There’s still a possibility that Intel and AMD will manage to crank up performance-per-watt while allowing power useage to slowly come down. Intel’s implementation of P-cores and E-cores has not been bad, and their strategy of spreading highly-multithreaded workloads over as many cores as possible has some advantages.
 
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