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Microsoft Says Windows Laptops With Snapdragon X Elite Will Be Faster Than M3 MacBook Air
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Because I was talking about total power consumption, not batteries. The "save the planet" folks think saving battery power is a savings, it is not. It only results in longer battery life. The power consumed is the same.
Are you claiming, for example, that Apple is so far ahead of the rest of the industry in efficiency cores (E cores) simply because of the node they’re on?
Obviously there’s an advantage during node shrinks, but I’ve never seen anyone make the kind of claims your making, including some former chip designers here.
Can you elaborate on this for those of us without this supposed common knowledge?
They're not. See pic below.
The Wattage is 2-3X higher under their most recent processor because TSMC's 3nm is total ******* and provides almost no PPA gains from their N4P node. It's another proof that design doesn't matter and it's all in the node. To get any form of performance gain, Apple had to move further right in the PPW curve to the inefficient side (Where derivative < 1) which is why you're seeing such terrible PPW on the M3 and A17 Pro when it does anything other than idle. You also notice the battery life + battery health complaints on the iPhone 15 pro? That's because Apple moved to the inefficient side of TSMC's PPW curve (More heat and more watts).
Usually Apple gets first dibs on the best technology from their suppliers, but this backfired on 3nm because TSMC messed that node up badly. The gains on N3B are extremely minimal compared to N4P that Apple had no choice but to play on the right-side of the PPW curve or they risk getting no performance gains from last gen chips. That would've been a marketing and sales disaster.
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You're not even replying to what I asked you. It *IS* common knowledge that Apple's E cores are a step above in capability than the ones Intel or AMD design. Your assertion is that design has no impact on it and if a core is on the same node it will have the same performance from a PPW standpoint?They're not. See pic below.
The Wattage is 2-3X higher under their most recent processor because TSMC's 3nm is total ******* and provides almost no PPA gains from their N4P node. It's another proof that design doesn't matter and it's all in the node. To get any form of performance gain, Apple had to move further right in the PPW curve to the inefficient side (Where derivative < 1) which is why you're seeing such terrible PPW when it does anything other than idle.
This is not my area of expertise, but in reading several of your posts throughout this thread I get the idea that you might be good at researching sources, but some of the claims you make lead me to think you don't quite understand what you're talking about (likening chip design to making a pizza or that a 3 year old can do for example).
TSMC's N3E, N3B, N3P, N3X, etc are all on the same same node. Are you claiming that chips based on any of these are going to have the same power characteristics? If so, why is chipmaking such a lucrative sector that commands such high salaries? Is it just a big secret that these engineers are all just in on some big secret?
I really don't get where you're coming from in your posts.
Intel and AMD are on older nodes. Intel is on 10nm and about to go down to 7nm while AMD is still on 4-5nm.
The 3nm lineup is FinFlex, so there are manufacturing improvements with each generation. Normally how it works is that you have a manufacturing base process (1st gen N3B) and each subsequent generation (N3E, N3P, N3X, etc.) is a slightly modified/improved manufacturing process that gives you some PPA improvement though at a smaller gain than a full node jump.
Chipmaking is a lucrative sector. I don't downplay the manufacturing aspect. I only say the "designing" part that Apple, Qualcomm, AMD, etc. do is child's play and an intellectual joke.
You keep making these same “child’s play” and “pizza making” references across tons of different threads.
You also seem to be aware of current technology terms, but not their application.
I’m not sure what your deal is but your claims make you seem way out over your skis and I really don’t get why you use almost the exact same language in multiple threads here.
Anywho, I don’t need to continue my back and forth on this, I have a clearer picture from looking at your post history so I’m moving on.
Regarding the Snapdragon, does anyone know if this chip is their high end? Or is there going to be another one that tries to compete more directly with Apple’s higher end Pro and Max chips?
I agree that the node process fabrication is hard, but I don't think taking advantage of node process is a "joke", but ok, I can only think that since 2021, Apple is the only "kid" that liked to make very good "jokes" and profit a lot from them... And TSMC, I don't know, is probably a "Deus Ex Machina" thing that a "kid" learned to use. 🤷♂️
Apple provides large sales volume. That’s about it. The actual designing part is pretty easy and trivial.
We can see how Apple gave up on microLED and the car that they just suck at engineering. Their strength is in marketing and branding. Tim Cook knows this, which is why he’s pivoting away from engineering and leaving that to their higher IQ suppliers.
Apple will focus on DEI, affirmative action, social justice, marketing political activism and other activities that increase their social clout to get higher sales.
Seeing how the report specifically calls out the MBA, my guess is that the first wave of ARM windows laptops will be thicker, heavier and sport shorter battery life. There's a lot more to a great laptop experience than simply shoving a processor into a laptop and calling it a day.
But, given how poor battery life seems to be the average experience for PC laptop buyers today, will an uptick of even 25-30% in Windows be enough to gather momentum? I mean this in the sense of "No it doesn't live up to the technical *potential*, but its still a significant enough difference to make people take notice"?
Apple was never good at engineering or developing sophisticated technology. Their strength is in marketing and large sales volume to get good discounts from their suppliers.
That's why I cringe whenever Johny Srouji says "Apple is not a chip company." That type of sentiment inside the leadership of Apple should be worrisome for a "computer company". Unless they really do want to become just a lifestyle company like Louis Vuitton and just slap their logo on things. Especially now, with everyone seeing the benefit and racing to develop their own chips. Apple needs to step up and say out loud that they ARE a chip company, otherwise, the competition will do the talking for them and let everyone know how they failed.
You don't need to repeat the argument, it don't stick to me, I thought I was clear about my view. I was just a bit curious where you wanted to go with this funny argument.
All other things equal, more battery life is always welcome.
There's the question of how well software optimised for intel processors will run, such as games.
It also looks like ARM laptops could offer 5g capabilities, though that might offset any battery life savings (while raising the price significantly).
Finally, I am curious as to Microsoft is content to just support both windows for Intel and ARM and see how the market reacts, or will they decide to eventually favour one over the other? For example, developers are going to want some assurance that there will be a market for native ARM apps, but a wait-and-see approach just leads to a vicious cycle where people hesitate on ARM laptops because of lack of software support and developers don't want to develop for a nascent platform.
Conversely, it's easy for Apple because they don't really have to worry about supporting enterprise that much, but I don't know if it's in Microsoft's best interests to do likewise and commit to say - phasing out support for intel devices by a certain deadline.
For now that's all they have. These Oryon cores don't scale very well at high TDPs but they seem to be very competitive with M2/3 and even M2/3 pro in terms of power efficiency. Apple manages to scale much better with max and ultra. But they are at a more mature stage of development.
I have read that Qualcomm is insisting with OEMs to not go under a given wattage (probably 15w but not clear), they don't want something that would be less powerful than Apple, even if with better battery life. And they are not selling cheaper chips either. For now.
Do you have any semiconductor engineering experience (Programming doesn’t count)
I think this is the worst thing I proactively decided to avoid when coming back To MacOS in 2021. The experience was quite a breeze for users, a bit turbulent for people that work with software development (my case), but quite manageable for such a change. I don't want to even know what will Windows developers pass through.
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You must be going into a different SB than I do. About 80% Macs is what I see
My friend, you need to learn that not everybody will agree with you, and that this is FINE. It could be Steve Jobs telling me what you said, I would not agree and would find it funny, I don't need an authority to make my mind.
Pretty sure this is their high end for now.
Keep in mind higher ends come with lower volumes. They probably want to see how they can recoup the investment first. $1.4B plus additional R&D since.
I said I'm not convinced by your argument, not sure what is not clear about this, any child would understand what not "being convinced" means.