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sam_dean

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Most x86 laptops still let you upgrade the SSD in the form an M.2 slot. I'm actually struggling to think of one that has soldered storage like a modern MacBook even small devices like the Steam Deck don't. There's even some that have multiple M.2 slots. The WiFi card is also typically upgradable too.

Right now soldered RAM is somewhat common but it's not hard to find PC laptops with RAM slots still. And that may change again with the upcoming CAMM RAM standard which will allow for things like replaceable LPDDR5 and thinner laptops than SO-DIMM slots allow while increasing speeds.
Are these 2023 year models? How much empty space do they have? Weight and dimensions vs a Mac?

Better question.. will >50% of buyers of these upgradeble laptops actually replace their

- SSD
- RAM
- WiFi card

Or.... they will just replace the whole thing instead?

I am not invalidating anyone's use case here but let us not mistake our use case as reflective to the majority/whole field.

There are companies that offer modular Android smartphones where in you can assemble it like a LEGO. I have yet to see it hitting the headlines like a Galaxy or iPhone. Also cannot find any telco that offers it on a plan.

User appeal may be to gear heads, PC gamers and maybe the odd tree hugger.
 
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bcortens

macrumors 65816
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Most x86 laptops still let you upgrade the SSD in the form an M.2 slot. I'm actually struggling to think of one that has soldered storage like a modern MacBook even small devices like the Steam Deck don't. There's even some that have multiple M.2 slots. The WiFi card is also typically upgradable too.

Right now soldered RAM is somewhat common but it's not hard to find PC laptops with RAM slots still. And that may change again with the upcoming CAMM RAM standard which will allow for things like replaceable LPDDR5 and thinner laptops than SO-DIMM slots allow while increasing speeds.

I think the big issue with the soldered storage in Macs is just how stingy apple is with it and how much they overcharge for upgrades. If it was more economically reasonable to upgrade the storage I think it would be less of an issue.
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
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The advantage of a modular PC is not just for "gamers" who want "the latest specs".
Modular parts increase repairability.

Here's a real-life example: last year, a power failure damaged my motherboard components and made it unstable, so it would reboot randomly. I had to take it to a shop to get the parts tested and buy a new part.

It stung, but what if it were a Mac Studio? I'd probably have to buy a shiny new one because I can't just replace the motherboard (logic board, in Mac terminology) and keep the SSD. Apple probably would refuse to cover damage due to a power failure.

Even if they did, once the warranty expires, you are toast.
That's a bad example because you are in fact able to buy and replace every part of the Mac Studio through the Self Service Repair Store.

However because the NAND flash controller is on the SoC you need a backup solution for your data so you don't lose it if you replace the whole logic board.
 

sam_dean

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I think the big issue with the soldered storage in Macs is just how stingy apple is with it and how much they overcharge for upgrades. If it was more economically reasonable to upgrade the storage I think it would be less of an issue.
I think the design decision was made to make the Mac as simple of a design as possible, consume the least power as possible, the longest battery life and provide the best performance per watt possible.

As compared to modularized parts that just increase power consumption and waste heat.

Apple does not disclose the cost of repair of their devices. Labor is cheaper in China so it may be more economical to just replace the whole thing rather than do repairs within a rich nation's city. Repair jobs may not be that reliable as well considering repair man jobs aren't what most rich nations citizens see themselves doing.

Like say what is the cost in terms of BoM, shipment, logistics and labor of allowing M.2 slots vs soldered memory?

Odds are soldered NAND flash memory direct to the logic board with the SSD controller in the SoC may be cheaper than having a M.2 slots.
 
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MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
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It hurts x86 more than Apple. As those who demand Windows 11 will stick to the best hardware that can run it.

In one competitive advantage Qualcomm could leverage their 5G/6G modem and out cost AMD/Intel.

By 2040 I see x86 dropping to near 20% PC market share because R&D of ~1 billion Android ARM SoC shipped annually worldwide (excludes any & all Apple devices) will make a drastic differentiator in that market.

By comparison x86 PCs ships this many annually worldwide

- 2021: 322.2 million units
- 2022: 263.7 million units

x86 will end up being the next mainframe in importance where in the main advantage to it would be for native legacy x86 hardware/software support for the platform.

What Microsoft and Qualcomm/Android ARM SoC makers need to work on are future Windows 11 fat binaries that allows programs to run on both x86 & ARM just like how Apple did it.

Heck, Apple already provided the workflow for that transition.

Intel's researched upgrade cycle is every 5-6 years. As the bulk of upgraders bought a new PC between 2020-2022 for remote work/learning then the next opportunity for ARM PCs to sell to those users would be 2025-2028. Between now and then is where they will make the minority of money.

Personally I wish I did the following upgrades

- 2011 MBP 13" 32nm > 2021 MBP 16" 5nm

Or if I accepted the handme down 2013 MBA

- 2011 MBP 13" 32nm > 2013 MBA 13" 22nm > 2023 MBA 15" 5nm

&

- 2012 iMac 27" 22nm > 2023 iMac 27" 5nm

Or if I accepted the half off 2015 iMac if I gave my 2012 to my uncle.

- 2012 iMac 27" 22nm > 2015 iMac 27" 14m > 2025 iMac 27" 2nm
I have one of the 'prototype' ARM Qualcomm laptops with me at the moment, as the company is working together with them to develop models for the business line and modems are integrated on the one we have.
 
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Rychiar

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I think the big issue with the soldered storage in Macs is just how stingy apple is with it and how much they overcharge for upgrades. If it was more economically reasonable to upgrade the storage I think it would be less of an issue.
$2400 to put 8tb in a Mac mini…. INSANE… amazon had an 8tb ssd for 599 yesterday. I know apples is faster but as someone who always had mechanical hard drives, who gives a f@ck.
 
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sam_dean

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I have one of the 'prototype' ARM Qualcomm laptops with me at the moment, as the company is working together with them to develop models for the business line and modems are integrated on the one we have.
With what you've seen so far... do you think ARMs laptops will take over ~80% of the Windows laptops within 2 decades?

I'm betting that x86 legacy software/hardware will keep AMD/Intel hardware relevance dropping to ~20% within 2 decades.

MR reported Apple bought Intel's wireless modem business to R&D their own 5G/6G modem. Odds are they're doing this to cut down on cost and provide the same or better margin without drastically increasing MSRP.

At the rate Apple's putting everything possible into a SoC package makes it apparent that the logic board may be reduced into just a SoC package the size of a postage stamp.
 
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sam_dean

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$2400 to put 8tb in a Mac mini…. INSANE… amazon had an 8tb ssd for 599 yesterday. I know apples is faster but as someone who always had mechanical hard drives, who gives a f@ck.
Is the 8TB a SATA SSD that is cap'd at ~0.5GB/s? I think the Mac mini 8TB does ~7.5GB/s.

How is the space, heat and other diffrence of the 2?
 

salamanderjuice

macrumors 6502a
Feb 28, 2020
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Is the 8TB a SATA SSD that is cap'd at ~0.5GB/s? I think the Mac mini 8TB does ~7.5GB/s.

How is the space, heat and other diffrence of the 2?

Well of course. It's a SATA drive. There's a few M.2 8TB PCIe Gen 4 options with 7GB/s+ speeds for a little over $1000 USD. Still far less than Apple asks to add one even ignoring the fact Apple requires you to buy an M2 Pro to get 8TB. Want 8TB of storage for a media server or something? Well you need a better CPU too for some reason.
 

bcortens

macrumors 65816
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I think the design decision was made to make the Mac as simple of a design as possible, consume the least power as possible, the longest battery life and provide the best performance per watt possible.

As compared to modularized parts that just increase power consumption and waste heat.

Apple does not disclose the cost of repair of their devices. Labor is cheaper in China so it may be more economical to just replace the whole thing rather than do repairs within a rich nation's city. Repair jobs may not be that reliable as well considering repair man jobs aren't what most rich nations citizens see themselves doing.

Like say what is the cost in terms of BoM, shipment, logistics and labor of allowing M.2 slots vs soldered memory?

Odds are soldered NAND flash memory direct to the logic board with the SSD controller in the SoC may be cheaper than having a M.2 slots.

I really doubt that the storage interface on the Mac Studio contributes meaningfully to power consumption.
 

sam_dean

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Well of course. It's a SATA drive. There's a few M.2 8TB PCIe Gen 4 options with 7GB/s+ speeds for a little over $1000 USD. Still far less than Apple asks to add one even ignoring the fact Apple requires you to buy an M2 Pro to get 8TB. Want 8TB of storage for a media server or something? Well you need a better CPU too for some reason.
That's Apple's up selling OR they've done the statistical model of which SKU will be ~80% popular within such tech spec.

Like say I'm uprading for a 1 decade old iMac with 32GB RAM.

If given a choice I'd choose an iPhone chip with 32GB as I find the M1 overpowered. From Apple's use case studies odds are they think that <20% of users will buy a M1 with 32GB. So what about the M2? Odds are ~80% will buy a M2 with 24GB RAM.

Do not get me wrong... I agree with you!

I wish Apple offered an all NAND flash memory Fusion Drive of a mix of fast & slow chips.

- 1-2TB fast NAND flash memory
- 8TB slow NAND flash memory

macOS decides to put apps and most frequently accessed data files on fast NAND and put the least used files in slow NAND.
 

sam_dean

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I really doubt that the storage interface on the Mac Studio contributes meaningfully to power consumption.
But it may impact BoM or even labor cost.

TBH with how complicated some supply chains are we'd need to have a highly detailed checklist to address all the concerns of any discussion about why Apple did X, Y or Z.
 

sam_dean

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Considering the way they overcharge on storage they should be able to manage it with minimal impact on margins ...
Not to mention Apple changed the way they do their quarterly reports from quantity of units shipped/sold to $ revenue figure.
 

sam_dean

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It has been recently reported that Apple has experienced problems with modem development and all but scrapped the project. Some things are just hard.
It may be delayed as Qualcomm may have given Apple a deal for them to push back deployment to 2025.

Any which way it's a + for consumers but a headache for PC gamers and gear head who demand modularized PCs for which they can easily replace parts.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
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Most x86 laptops still let you upgrade the SSD in the form an M.2 slot. I'm actually struggling to think of one that has soldered storage like a modern MacBook even small devices like the Steam Deck don't.
Yeah, I think that's right. Some have followed Apple's example and moved away from upgradeable RAM, esp on their smaller devices (you can upgrade RAM on the XPS 15 but not the the XPS 13), but I can't think of any other than Apple's that have non-upgradeable storage.
I think the big issue with the soldered storage in Macs is just how stingy apple is with it and how much they overcharge for upgrades. If it was more economically reasonable to upgrade the storage I think it would be less of an issue.
I think you're right that, for most laptop buyers, it simply comes down to $. When upgrade prices are modest relative to the latop's purchase price, most will simply get what they need and forget about it, so soldered SSDs aren't an issue.

For instance, if you're buying a Dell XPS, it's $200 to go from 1 TB to 2 TB. With Macs, it's double that.

But that's simply Apple's business model, and it's not going to change. They do it so they can keep the base prices on their devices relatively low (which helps with marketing, and caters to the important student market), while maintaining high overall profit margins by charging high upgrade prices. Essentially, the fancier models subsidize the base ones.

OTOH, many who buy desktops have a different mindset--they buy for their needs at the time of purchase, but want to have the option to upgrade RAM and/or SSD size as their needs expand (at least that's how I've done it).
 

sam_dean

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Yeah, I think that's right. Some have followed Apple's example and moved away from upgradeable RAM, esp on their smaller devices (you can upgrade RAM on the XPS 15 but not the the XPS 13), but I can't think of any other than Apple's that have non-upgradeable storage.

I think you're right that, for most laptop buyers, it simply comes down to $. When upgrade prices are modest relative to the latop's purchase price, most will simply get what they need and forget about it, so soldered SSDs aren't an issue.

For instance, if you're buying a Dell XPS, it's $200 to go from 1 TB to 2 TB. With Macs, it's double that.

But that's simply Apple's business model, and it's not going to change. They do it so they can keep the base prices on their devices relatively low (which helps with marketing, and caters to the important student market), while maintaining high overall profit margins by charging high upgrade prices. Essentially, the fancier models subsidize the base ones.

OTOH, many who buy desktops have a different mindset--they buy for their needs at the time of purchase, but want to have the option to upgrade RAM and/or SSD size as their needs expand (at least that's how I've done it).
TBH I do not mind the "Apple tax" that Apple imposes on upgrading parts. They do deserve to earn.

What I do wish for is a compromise that current SKUs at their current MSRP and current binned Mac SoC would all have 2x RAM & 2x SSD.

Doing so would increase the value of the Macs while at the same time maintaining MSRP.

Yes, doing so would probably double the useful life of the Mac from Apple's expected 4 years or more to 8 years or more.

If Mac purchases by 1st time Mac buyers just balances the end of life of the Mac users then it would be problematic if people like me proliferate. People like me wait for the final Security Update before replacing... like say after 9.5 years. I haven't upgraded my 2012 iMac 27" 22nm yet because they have not offered a 2023 model yet. :mad:

The dream...

iMac 27" replacement with 27" 5K, 30" 5.5K or 32" 6K display

- M2 Pro 5nm
- 10-Core CPU
- 16-Core GPU
- 32GB RAM LPDDR5
- 1TB SSD ~7.5GB/s
- $2599
- ~100W
 

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
I think the design decision was made to make the Mac as simple of a design as possible, consume the least power as possible, the longest battery life and provide the best performance per watt possible.
Designing and manufacturing computers from modular parts is simple enough that a teenager can do it in their bedroom. They can also deliver custom configurations much faster than Apple can. While integration makes things more efficient, it also makes everything more complex and rigid.
 

sam_dean

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Designing and manufacturing computers from modular parts is simple enough that a teenager can do it in their bedroom. They can also deliver custom configurations much faster than Apple can. While integration makes things more efficient, it also makes everything more complex and rigid.
What you describe runs counter to the performance/use case of today's Mac users.

People who want what you describe are better served buying a x86 PC.
 
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JouniS

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You may be better served buying a x86 PC instead.

What you describe is a commodity ~$699 x86 laptop akin to a sack of potatoes.

The Mac, much less any other Apple product, is not positioned for that because most of their users would never used those features.
That has nothing to do with my point, which was that the choice between integration and modularity is a trade-off, a compromise. Modular designs are simple, flexible, and less efficient, while integrated designs are complex, rigid, and more efficient. Both have their places, and neither is inherently superior to the other.
 

sam_dean

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That has nothing to do with my point, which was that the choice between integration and modularity is a trade-off, a compromise. Modular designs are simple, flexible, and less efficient, while integrated designs are complex, rigid, and more efficient. Both have their places, and neither is inherently superior to the other.
Different markets... different use case. What you describe isn't what most Mac users are willing to buy into anymore.

And your attempt at reducing the importance of efficiency tries to hide its potency on how users want to use their devices today and not a decade ago.

Modularity just imposes

- heat
- weight
- bulk
- <1/2 day battery life
- cheap parts

all for raw performance at a price of a higher power bill.

Yes, where you live may be cold so the heat output helps keep the room warm and $/kWh where you live may be among the cheapest in the world.

Other places you just dont want waste heat as you live in the tropics and $/kWh there tend to be amongst the highest in the world.

Intel was very proud of getting Apple as a PC OEM as it allowed them to have a crystal ball on what the PC will be like next. Sadly Intel's business model cannot push itself in the direction where most users want to go to.
 
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JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
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Different markets... different use case. What you describe isn't what most Mac users are willing to buy into anymore.
What most people want is not always relevant.

Most people don't use Apple devices. Does that mean that Apple should ignore what the people using them want when designing new devices?

Most Apple users don't use Macs. Does that mean that Apple should ignore Mac users when designing Macs?

Most Mac users don't buy high-end models. Does that mean that Apple should ignore high-end users when designing high-end models?

Power users form a larger share of Mac users than Windows users, because power users are more likely to buy expensive computers. On the intellectual level, Apple knows what power users want and how to deliver it. The organization is just incapable of doing that consistently. Ever since the success of the iPhone made Apple a lifestyle company selling consumer electronics, organizational inertia has made high-end models more like more expensive consumer devices than tools designed for power users. Sometimes Apple makes deliberate effort to reverse the trend, like with the 2019 Mac Pro and 2021 MBP, but eventually the inertia wins again.

That's just a weakness Apple has as an organization, much like Google's inability to continue supporting existing services.
 
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sam_dean

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What most people want is not always relevant.
If you mean x86 users then they're not a market Apple is interested in serving.
Most people don't use Apple devices. Does that mean that Apple should ignore what the people using them want when designing new devices?
Apple has a performance / use case team to determine what directions their SoC and product lines will target next.

As such the devices we are seeing is what >80% of all Mac/Apple users are looking for.

When sales does not reflect this they either space out further any R&D spend or halt the product line all together.
Most Apple users don't use Macs. Does that mean that Apple should ignore Mac users when designing Macs?
That's a silly statement. The Macs of today reflects the use case priorities of >80% of its users. I get there are users for the Mac Pro with PCIe expansion slots but Apple appears to have determined that >50% of their Mac Pro users do not want to pay for that feature. It is reflective on the 2013, 2017 and 2022 Pro desktops without it.

Sometimes a market/user base grows too small to be worth the bother. So you either space out refresh to ~4 years or let others service it as it may not be worth the time, effort and money anymore.
Most Mac users don't buy high-end models. Does that mean that Apple should ignore high-end users when designing high-end models?
All Apple devices are high-end. You can tell from the Apple tax. If you mean Apple not catering to users with very unique use case then it has to show specific volumes to be worth Apple's time to bother with it.
Power users form a larger share of Mac users than Windows users, because power users are more likely to buy expensive computers. On the intellectual level, Apple knows what power users want and how to deliver it. The organization is just incapable of doing that consistently.
If units bought does not reflect this then they are better of being catered to by someone else.
Ever since the success of the iPhone made Apple a lifestyle company selling consumer electronics, organizational inertia has made high-end models more like more expensive consumer devices than tools designed for power users. Sometimes Apple makes deliberate effort to reverse the trend, like with the 2019 Mac Pro and 2021 MBP, but eventually the inertia wins again.
Use cases changes over time.

What we are witnessing is the same thing that happened when the microprocessor took over the mainframe/supercomputers.

The perception was the system that took a whole room and had lots of blinking lights had to be the more powerful. However, what was happening was that the microprocessor guys were integrating the same functionality that took lots of separate boards on a mainframe down to a few chips.

There were some very specific use cases where the mainframe had the edge, but for the 99% of the rest of the applications, we were ending up with system on our desktops that were faster than a computer who took a whole room. Heck, you can now buy a GPU for a $1k that is more powerful than the fastest supercomputer from 2000, which cost millions of dollars, took an entire floor in a datacenter, and used almost 1 megawatt.

The microprocessor vendors also had access to larger economies of scale, which meant they could spend more money in development of their designs/tech so they were able to overlap the old large system vendors who had slower development cycles and smaller revenues.

The same thing is now happening with SoCs. They are having larger levels of integration, so they can fit a whole PC into a single chip. Which means that things run faster, with less power, and less cost. And since they are leveraging the mobile/embedded markets that are larger and are growing faster than the traditional PC/datacenter stuff. The SoC vendors are the ones with access to the larger economies of scale. So they are developing things faster.

Which is why you end up with a mobile chip trading blows with a whole PC.

So you will see mobile SoCs getting more and more powerful at a faster rate than desktop microprocessors. And once they pass the inflection point, the desktop processor starts to actually lag in performance and can't catch up.

This has happened several times Mainframes -> Minicomputers -> Microcomputers -> SoCs... and it's usually correlated with jumps in levels of integration.

BTW, you still have old guys who come from the mainframe era still in denial of how a PC could possibly be faster ;-)

What I am trying to say in my lengthy short story is that perhaps the time of a Pro desktop like the Mac Pro has reduced the number of buyers over time as there are more modern alternatives to it. Sure there are some use cases that requires it but many other users have moved away from it.

Why else the development of the 2013 Mac Pro, 2017 iMac Pro and 2022 Mac Studio? Those SKUs saved a lot for the end user who wanted the power but not the bulk of the 2012 & 2019 Mac Pro.

That's just a weakness Apple has as an organization,
Apple's doing well for a company that briefly have a $3 trillion market cap within the last 52 weeks. This was nearly 10x what Steve Jobs was able to do in his lifetime.
much like Google's inability to continue supporting existing services.
Google keeps making experiments until shareholders demanded they stop throwing money at the wall in the hopes it sticks to it.

They keep having redundant projects compete with each other that leads to nothing.
 
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