Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

JouniS

macrumors 6502a
Nov 22, 2020
638
399
Why else the development of the 2013 Mac Pro, 2017 iMac Pro and 2022 Mac Studio? Those SKUs saved a lot for the end user who wanted the power but not the bulk of the 2012 & 2019 Mac Pro.
Apple admitted that the 2013 Mac Pro was a failure and the 2017 iMac Pro was a temporary solution while waiting for the real Mac Pro. The Mac Studio is better seen as a successor to the high-end iMac, because it doesn't really offer anything more than a high-end consumer desktop.

Due to the way the market works, failures are the price of success. If your products don't fail often enough, your entire company will fail, because you are not trying hard enough to remain competitive. The 2013 Mac Pro was a failure. The touchbar generation of MacBook Pros was a failure. In both cases, Apple had ambitious ideas that turned out to be wrong. Other ambitious ideas, such as the iPhone, the iPad, and Apple Silicon, turned out to be right. The problem is, when your ideas are ambitious, you can't tell the difference between those two cases in advance.

And, for power users who like Macs, the problem is that Apple is more likely to make wrong guesses with the products you buy than with consumer products.

Apple's doing well for a company that briefly have a $3 trillion market cap within the last 52 weeks. This was nearly 10x what Steve Jobs was able to do in his lifetime.
Those are not mutually exclusive. An organization can simultaneously be very successful and incapable of delivering some things it wants to deliver. If things flow in a certain way, going against the flow is difficult.
 

MrGunny94

macrumors 65816
Dec 3, 2016
1,148
675
Malaga, Spain
With what you've seen so far... do you think ARMs laptops will take over ~80% of the Windows laptops within 2 decades?

I'm betting that x86 legacy software/hardware will keep AMD/Intel hardware relevance dropping to ~20% within 2 decades.

MR reported Apple bought Intel's wireless modem business to R&D their own 5G/6G modem. Odds are they're doing this to cut down on cost and provide the same or better margin without drastically increasing MSRP.

At the rate Apple's putting everything possible into a SoC package makes it apparent that the logic board may be reduced into just a SoC package the size of a postage stamp.
It's simply software at this point, performance is good with Windows (no drivers to test with Linux as most of the stuff is not on the Linux kernel yet)

There is so some sort of translation layer that you can install but at this stage it doesn't work with half of the stuff.
 

Gudi

Suspended
May 3, 2013
4,590
3,267
Berlin, Berlin
Just because Tesla popularized EVs first doesn't mean …
Not even that is true. 38% of American cars were electric in 1900. If there is one thing Tesla actually popularized, it is sleeping at the wheel while the fake AutoPilot crashes into traffic and kills a bunch of people. Thanks Elon!
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
Bumping this thread. What do people make of the 1 year cadence prediction now that M3 and M4 have been released?
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
Obviously it was wrong ... they released the M4 after only 7 months! ;) Now I'm looking forward to the M5 in December! 🤪
I was less wrong than people who claimed 18-24 months. 🤣


  • Rumors were that M2 SoC was ready much earlier but was held back by the late new Air design.
  • Reports and video file name suggest that the M2 Pro/Max were ready as early as October 2022, which would have made it one year since M1 Pro/Max
  • M2 used A15 cores (not A16 in iPhone 14), which suggests Apple wants to take advantage of the iPhone SoC design update each year
  • Reports are that M2 will be a short-lived generation because M3 is expected to launch on time
  • Many speculators point to iPad SoCs, which were not updated yearly. However, the base M chips go into far more devices than old iPad SoCs. This makes it more economical to design and launch new SoCs yearly.
  • M1 launched in the same quarter as A14, which suggests Apple develops the base M and the A series in tandem
  • Apple has been fighting supply chain issues in the last 3 years, which caused many delays in new designs shipping.
All these bullet points are looking pretty spot on thus far.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: crazy dave

crazy dave

macrumors 65816
Sep 9, 2010
1,450
1,219
I was less wrong than people who claimed 18-24 months. 🤣



All these bullet points are looking pretty spot on thus far.
To be clear my laughing emoji reaction was an actual laughing emoji not a sarcastic one, I know some people toxically abuse it on these forums.

Yeah I though it would be a year too ... this was unexpected ...
 
  • Like
Reactions: senttoschool

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
Too many variables to have cadence. Supply chain, design, performance, market, and revenue considerations can all change the plans. That is assuming Apple has a set yearly plan.
 

senttoschool

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Nov 2, 2017
2,626
5,482
Too many variables to have cadence. Supply chain, design, performance, market, and revenue considerations can all change the plans. That is assuming Apple has a set yearly plan.
That's basically saying "Apple will release it when they release it" which is as valuable of a prediction as not making one at all. Sorry.

A company like Apple always has internal plans. We're just speculating what those plans are.
 

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
That's basically saying "Apple will release it when they release it" which is as valuable of a prediction as not making one at all. Sorry.

A company like Apple always has internal plans. We're just speculating what those plans are.
Not what I said, but Better than pulling stuff from thin air on Apple’s plans and cadence. Apple has plans, but doesn’t mean they have 1 year release plans which are fixed.
 

Joe Dohn

macrumors 6502a
Jul 6, 2020
840
748
That motherboard you threw out could probably have been fixed too if the tools were availability.
I didn't really throw it out, but there's nowhere around me where I can safely send it to be fixed. I could send it to another state, maybe, but it would get too expensive to even try to fix.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bcortens

Bug-Creator

macrumors 68000
May 30, 2011
1,783
4,717
Germany
A company like Apple always has internal plans.

Sure, they have plans based on what they hope to by a certain date and other more detailed plans based on what the know they can do at a certain date.

Just look at Intel and AMD and how often they failed to deliver on big plans, how often the CPU they launched were flawed or underperformed and how often they did try to sell a rebrand of the last gen as the next gen.

Chip development intertwined with designing them for processes not yet shipping is a multi year task, a task where success or failure is only determined pretty close to release.


So yeah Apple does have plans for at least M5 to M7 including release schedules, but the chance of the M7 dropping at that exact moment is rather low.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
Getting back to the question of efficiency, I think M4 really illustrates what this is about. Apple's last CPU delivers more single-core performance than Intel's fasters desktop/workstation design, and that in a passively cooled device that is as thick as the entire Intel CPU package.
 

tenthousandthings

Contributor
May 14, 2012
274
318
New Haven, CT
Not what I said, but Better than pulling stuff from thin air on Apple’s plans and cadence. Apple has plans, but doesn’t mean they have 1 year release plans which are fixed.
Yes, I agree with @TechnoMonk, I think the lesson from the Apple silicon cadence so far is that Apple is serious (meaning it's not just marketing-speak) when it talks about its silicon being driven by its products. I'll quote one interview, but there are several more like this. Anand Shimpi, in February 2023 with Andru Edwards:

"The silicon team doesn’t operate in a vacuum, right? When these products are being envisioned and designed, folks on the architecture team, the design team, they’re there, they’re aware of where we’re going, what’s important, both from a workload perspective, as well as the things that are most important to enable in all of these designs. [...] You can look at how chip design works at Apple. You have to remember we’re not a merchant silicon vendor, at the end of the day we ship product. So the story for the chip team actually starts at the product, right? [...] On the silicon side, the team doesn’t pull any punches, right? The goal across all the IPs is, one, make sure you can enable the vision of the product, that there’s a new feature, a new capability that we have to bring to the table in order for the product to have everything that we envisioned, that’s clearly something that you can’t pull back on. And then secondly, it’s do the best you can, right? Get as much down in terms of performance and capability as you can in every single generation. The other thing is, Apple’s not a chip company. At the end of the day, we’re a product company. So we want to deliver, whether it’s features, performance, efficiency. If we’re not able to deliver something compelling, we won’t engage, right? We won’t build the chip. So each generation we’re motivated as much as possible to deliver the best that we can."

It's also worth noting that, in that same interview, Shimpi uses the term "cadence" to refer to whether or not every product gets every generation of silicon. So Apple's braintrust isn't really thinking in terms of annual or other cycles when they think about cadence:

"But really the thing that we see, that the iPhone and the iPad have enjoyed over the years, is this idea that every generation gets the latest of our IPs, the latest CPU IP, the latest GPU, media engine, neural engine, and so on and so forth, and so now the Mac gets to be on that cadence too. If you look at how we’ve evolved things on the phone and iPad, those IPs tend to get more efficient over time. There is this relationship, if the fundamental chassis doesn’t change, any additional performance you draw, you deliver has to be done more efficiently, and so this is the first time the MacBook Pro gets to enjoy that and be on that same sort of cycle."

This M4 release perfectly illustrates these two points. The 7th-generation iPad Pro gets M4 because it needs a specific display engine that M3 does not have. So it launches now, not a year from M3, or 18 months, but now, because the iPad Pro with its tandem OLED display needs it. But that doesn't mean the M4 is just an M3 with an additional display engine. No. It's a new generation and everything will shift to it now. That's what a product-driven cadence means.

That said, I'm still in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode. The iPhone's annual cadence is hard to ignore, but everything about the M-series (and the A-series X cadence that preceded it) argues for this more flexible approach. I still believe, deep down, that M3 Ultra and M3 Extreme will launch in less than a month at WWDC. But my logical brain says that's wrong, and M4 Ultra is on the way...
 
Last edited:

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
Yes, I agree with @TechnoMonk, I think the lesson from the Apple silicon cadence so far is that Apple is serious (meaning it's not just marketing-speak) when it talks about its silicon being driven by its products. I'll quote one interview, but there are several more like this. Anand Shimpi, in February 2023 with Andru Edwards:

"The silicon team doesn’t operate in a vacuum, right? When these products are being envisioned and designed, folks on the architecture team, the design team, they’re there, they’re aware of where we’re going, what’s important, both from a workload perspective, as well as the things that are most important to enable in all of these designs. [...] You can look at how chip design works at Apple. You have to remember we’re not a merchant silicon vendor, at the end of the day we ship product. So the story for the chip team actually starts at the product, right? [...] On the silicon side, the team doesn’t pull any punches, right? The goal across all the IPs is, one, make sure you can enable the vision of the product, that there’s a new feature, a new capability that we have to bring to the table in order for the product to have everything that we envisioned, that’s clearly something that you can’t pull back on. And then secondly, it’s do the best you can, right? Get as much down in terms of performance and capability as you can in every single generation. The other thing is, Apple’s not a chip company. At the end of the day, we’re a product company. So we want to deliver, whether it’s features, performance, efficiency. If we’re not able to deliver something compelling, we won’t engage, right? We won’t build the chip. So each generation we’re motivated as much as possible to deliver the best that we can."

It's also worth noting that, in that same interview, Shimpi uses the term "cadence" to refer to whether or not every product gets every generation of silicon. So Apple's braintrust isn't really thinking in terms of annual or other cycles when they think about cadence:

"But really the thing that we see, that the iPhone and the iPad have enjoyed over the years, is this idea that every generation gets the latest of our IPs, the latest CPU IP, the latest GPU, media engine, neural engine, and so on and so forth, and so now the Mac gets to be on that cadence too. If you look at how we’ve evolved things on the phone and iPad, those IPs tend to get more efficient over time. There is this relationship, if the fundamental chassis doesn’t change, any additional performance you draw, you deliver has to be done more efficiently, and so this is the first time the MacBook Pro gets to enjoy that and be on that same sort of cycle."

This M4 release perfectly illustrates these two points. The 7th-generation iPad Pro gets M4 because it needs a specific display engine that M3 does not have. So it launches now, not a year from M3, or 18 months, but now, because the iPad Pro with its tandem OLED display needs it. But that doesn't mean the M4 is just an M3 with an additional display engine. No. It's a new generation and everything will shift to it now. That's what a product-driven cadence means.

That said, I'm still in "I'll believe it when I see it" mode. The iPhone's annual cadence is hard to ignore, but everything about the M-series (and the A-series X cadence that preceded it) argues for this more flexible approach. I still believe, deep down, that M3 Ultra and M3 Extreme will launch in less than a month at WWDC. But my logical brain says that's wrong, and M4 Ultra is on the way...
100%. iPhone is Apples biggest driver, and Apple started off with an efficient mobile processor that could power laptops and workstations(Mx max, Pro and Ultra). I can see Apple further differentiating the design of Processors based on Product requirements. iPhone/ipad and AVP with efficient processor and thermal footprint. Mx Max, Ultra or possibly server class GPUs that can leverage large Unified memory. Apple decision not to fuse multiple Mx Max chips in to Ultra shows Apple is evolving to product lines.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tenthousandthings

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,516
19,664
@tenthousandthings @TechnoMonk And I think it also shows that Apple is very flexible when it comes to adapting the silicon strategy as well. Instead of forcing rigid cycles and standards (like Intel's famous tick-tock), they appear to be adjusting to the dynamic nature of the chip design process, picking and shifting IP and processes to enable rapid iteration rather than consistent iteration. I think this makes a lot of sense, especially in the current lackluster market, as it helps motivate the customer.

What I find most impressive that none of this would be possible without Apple's ability to plan architectures many years in advance. Take AMX for example. It took them many years to open it up to the developers, and they iterated through multiple version of the design, while working together with their partner (ARM) on a forward-looking instruction set. The result of all this is that they can "magically" ship an implementation is just a few months, which is only possible because of many hundreds incremental steps that were done before. I am also sure we are seeing something similar with the GPU, as Apple has been slowly building a foundation for a high-performance architecture that could give Nvidia a run for its money.

At any rate, exciting stuff!
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
@tenthousandthings @TechnoMonk And I think it also shows that Apple is very flexible when it comes to adapting the silicon strategy as well. Instead of forcing rigid cycles and standards (like Intel's famous tick-tock), they appear to be adjusting to the dynamic nature of the chip design process, picking and shifting IP and processes to enable rapid iteration rather than consistent iteration. I think this makes a lot of sense, especially in the current lackluster market, as it helps motivate the customer.

What I find most impressive that none of this would be possible without Apple's ability to plan architectures many years in advance. Take AMX for example. It took them many years to open it up to the developers, and they iterated through multiple version of the design, while working together with their partner (ARM) on a forward-looking instruction set. The result of all this is that they can "magically" ship an implementation is just a few months, which is only possible because of many hundreds incremental steps that were done before. I am also sure we are seeing something similar with the GPU, as Apple has been slowly building a foundation for a high-performance architecture that could give Nvidia a run for its money.

At any rate, exciting stuff!

Apple also has the singular and unique advantage of designing its SoCs in tandem with the specific hardware they will be running on. Nobody else in the industry can say that with any sincerity. Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung (Exynos) are all designing SoCs/CPUs which will be used with a variety of different hardware combinations. Even nVidia faces a similar issue on the GPU side. In the (non-Apple) ARM space, the actual core designs are created by ARM itself, but individual SoC manufacturers (such as the aforementioned Qualcomm and Samsung) are taking those bits and pieces and effectively playing LEGO as they assemble them into their SoCs.
 

Pressure

macrumors 603
May 30, 2006
5,178
1,544
Denmark
Apple also has the singular and unique advantage of designing its SoCs in tandem with the specific hardware they will be running on. Nobody else in the industry can say that with any sincerity. Intel, AMD, Qualcomm, Samsung (Exynos) are all designing SoCs/CPUs which will be used with a variety of different hardware combinations. Even nVidia faces a similar issue on the GPU side. In the (non-Apple) ARM space, the actual core designs are created by ARM itself, but individual SoC manufacturers (such as the aforementioned Qualcomm and Samsung) are taking those bits and pieces and effectively playing LEGO as they assemble them into their SoCs.

Do you mean Apple are in the unique position that they are developing hardware for their own software?

That's basically what sets Apple apart from off the shelves builders and manufacturers. They get to choose what is important both in hardware and software.
 

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
@leman I haven’t been this excited about Mac’s since the return of Jobs, and revamping the Mac lineup. Apple needs a coherent strategy on how they will handle MLX/Core ML. MLX is great for ML/DL and non vision, speech and multimedia use cases. MLX is open source, unlike closed Core ML which uses Apple Neural Engine for Vision, speech and multimedia. Apple needs to provide framework for MLX to leverage ANE.
Nvidia seems to be shifting the focus to big server class GPU clusters than revamping their consumer GPUs for AI/ML. Apple has a great opportunity here if they play the software part right.
AI/ML space is still in early days similar to the Yahoos and AOLs of the world. Yahoo wanted users to stick on their portal and spend more time. Google came along with a different approach for folks to find better ranked sites, and go somewhere else.
Apple differs from others in AI space with more emphasis on device computing. Apple recent paper on context based training on device outperforming GPT4 models on devices shows an interesting way, different than Google, Open AI and others.
Exciting times ahead.
 

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68030
Oct 15, 2022
2,603
4,110
Do you mean Apple are in the unique position that they are developing hardware for their own software?

That's basically what sets Apple apart from off the shelves builders and manufacturers. They get to choose what is important both in hardware and software.
Much more than software. One of the issues I consistently faced over the years is the difference between Intel's recommendations and other PC/MB manufacturers. Intel says to run the chips at higher power/clock; the manufacturer advises to run at base profile. Intel has backward compatibility overheads, they don't control the timelines, so they have to keep supporting for longer periods or something other vendors need. Apple also can control the SoC, bandwidth cache tuned for a particular device, MBP, MBA, Ipad and so on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tenthousandthings

streetfunk

macrumors member
Feb 9, 2023
82
41
This M4 release perfectly illustrates these two points. The 7th-generation iPad Pro gets M4 because it needs a specific display engine that M3 does not have. So it launches now, not a year from M3, or 18 months, but now, because the iPad Pro with its tandem OLED display needs it.
This might have been one point. ( not in the position to judge it), but i think there is way more to it.

What Apple DID know, but we didn´t is:
The sheer power the M4 seems to have.

Releasing it in a I-Pad, means it´s also a trigger to make us all hot !
It´s the ***perfect*** PR for any upcoming M4 product !
The PR value on this is unpayable, i´d say.
While i would suspect that any other order of releasing the M4 wouldn´t be anything "that valuable" in this regard.
These jerks, they make us hot !
That´s what it is, haha.
;)

I would suspect that they @Apple do think very multidimensional.
It looks right now so to me.

They can bring in now some experiences, aftermarket software can be tailored and released, the whole thing will have developed further when it´s time for the next I-Phone. Their big seller.
I would further guess to tailor the SW for the I-Phone will be a harder task than starting it with an I-Pad,...and the desktops. (just uneducated guessworking).
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.