MP 7,1 MPX module - a proprietary dead end?

[Slash-2CPU]

There are two Thunderbolt 3 ports on the top of the Mac Pro case along with the Apple I/O card.

There is a Titan Ridge controller on the I/O card and there should be one on the motherboard itself, but until a teardown occurs, no one can say with 100% certainty.

I also don’t see any reason why Sonnet Tech couldn’t build a 4-port or even an 8-port Thunderbolt 3 PCIe to go into one of the x8 PCIe slots depending on whether or not enough wattage could be allocated to the PCIe card to provide the requisite power for bus-powers devices.

As others have stated, why would I care about adding an eGPU when the Mac Pro has 8 PCIe slots? That is an edge case at best.

There are no external ports on the motherboard itself. 100% certain there are two TB3 ports on base config.

For it to work properly, TB3 requires a GPIO header connection. Here's hoping Apple included one, but I doubt it.

Why would you want to use an eGPU instead of an internal one? Same thing with the ssd’s.

SSD's specifically, for moving data between systems or sites. You'll be surprised how quickly "all" those slots will fill up.

Lack of external ports will be a long-term shortcoming of these systems. Still buying one.

 

[th0masp]

The GPU is actively cooled - but by the case fan, not by a fan on the GPU card. This is quite common with server-oriented GPUs.

Yeah I get that. However with the machine not even out and Apple's well known preference for custom engineered solutions over going with the standards I don't think anybody can be sure that a regular GPU turned fanless will be cooled enough by this solution (or even fit).

What comes to mind as an example is this custom underclocked pair of AMD GPU's cooled by a passive central core with a single fan at the bottom of the machine's case. Genius design or thermal corner - your choice...

 

[Zdigital2015]

There are no external ports on the motherboard itself. 100% certain there are two TB3 ports on base config.

For it to work properly, TB3 requires a GPIO header connection. Here's hoping Apple included one, but I doubt it.




SSD's specifically, for moving data between systems or sites. You'll be surprised how quickly "all" those slots will fill up.

Lack of external ports will be a long-term shortcoming of these systems. Still buying one.

There are 4 Thunderbolt ports on the base configuration...jeez, they are located on the top of the unit. Even if they aren’t soldered to the motherboard, they are there and they work...but, sure, Apple hates you.

https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

Lack of external ports? Or is this about lack of USB-A ports...again?

 

[Slash-2CPU]

There are 4 Thunderbolt ports on the base configuration...jeez, they are located on the top of the unit. Even if they aren’t soldered to the motherboard, they are there and they work...but, sure, Apple hates you.

https://www.apple.com/mac-pro/specs/

Lack of external ports? Or is this about lack of USB-A ports...again?

Both. Top ports are really for temporary connections. Having two TB3 and two USB 3.1 on the rear is inadequate. It's unusual for any desktop box to have four total ports on the rear by default.

Come to think of it, two on top/front user-accessible area is kind of low as well for a workstation.

I'm not sure why my opinion of available port adequacy is so upsetting to you.

 

[deconstruct60]

Since Apple themselves provide a PCIe card for thunderbolt 3 ports (+ USB and jack), they may offer the option to configure a Mac Pro with more than one such card. Having several audio jacks would be a waste though.

Err, very probably no. That specific slot is probably special in that it has two DisplayPort feeds that come in through the slot. You can put a x4 card in there that ignores those connectors but it probably won't work in any other than that specific slot.

Never-mind you'd need specific routing through he motherboard to some other location for the two DP streams. Apple's I/O card do not appear to use some "Rube Goldberg" solution of loop back cables to get the DP input. The whole approach of MPX suggests that is not the path to a solution that they prefer.
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T2 is near useless. It locks in a proprietary SSD tech that is hugely over priced and slow.

Apple's SSD were higher priced long before the T2 came along. T2 didn't' particularly change that. The T2 isn't a lock-in as much as it is better security. Some folks may not want to make the tradeoff for increased security but it is far from useless. Other solutions don't have the same level.

 

[goMac]

Err, very probably no. That specific slot is probably special in that it has two DisplayPort feeds that come in through the slot. You can put a x4 card in there that ignores those connectors but it probably won't work in any other than that specific slot.

The extra pins along the edge of that slot, and the lack of an expansion kit listed for that card, implies you're probably right.

 

[deconstruct60]

There are no external ports on the motherboard itself. 100% certain there are two TB3 ports on base config.

The 10GbE ports are probably on the motherboard.

The top Thunderbolt controller may be feed through some custom header off the motherboard ( the rack version is going to need to move that, so it wouldn't be surprising if the board routes to two branches only one of which can be connected. ).

For it to work properly, TB3 requires a GPIO header connection. Here's hoping Apple included one, but I doubt it.

Connection and some standard usable connector are two different things. I suspect the I/O card fits into a specialized slot that also happens to do x4 but does a bit more ( unless Apple's pictures and AR fly though are missing lots of additional wires. )

Lack of external ports will be a long-term shortcoming of these systems. Still buying one.

The number of these systems that will be hooked to a Thunderbolt Display docking station like monitor I think it being underestimated. A number of folks on MacPro 2013 would have them. There are options from more than simply just Apple now and the number if growing each year. It is not just the XPD 6K monitor that probably a large majority of Mac Pro buyers are not going to buy.

Thunderbolt docks ( without display built in) probably will be in play in a number of contexts also. ( system on the floor. Dock on the desk within much easier reach for plugging in "sneaker net" media. ) The top of the Mac Pro is easier than the back, but something in approxiamately the same working space as keyboard/mouse/trackpad is even closer to the hands.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

Err, very probably no. That specific slot is probably special in that it has two DisplayPort feeds that come in through the slot. You can put a x4 card in there that ignores those connectors but it probably won't work in any other than that specific slot.

Never-mind you'd need specific routing through he motherboard to some other location for the two DP streams. Apple's I/O card do not appear to use some "Rube Goldberg" solution of loop back cables to get the DP input. The whole approach of MPX suggests that is not the path to a solution that they prefer.
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Apple's SSD were higher priced long before the T2 came along. T2 didn't' particularly change that. The T2 isn't a lock-in as much as it is better security. Some folks may not want to make the tradeoff for increased security but it is far from useless. Other solutions don't have the same level.

Yea their “security” is lock-in that makes migrating your own data sometimes impossible. With a proprietary connector mated to the t2 chip no other storage maybe used which lets them charge even more absurd prices for their storage than in the past, outright gouging users. Your apologies for them notwithstanding, it’s garbage.

 

[mauriziodececco]

Going back to the MPX modules: it has been already said that they are optional and you can only use the PCIe part of them.
But i have the impression that Apple prepared this a bit better than what we expect, and not only concerning GPUs.
Pegasus already announced a MPX format RAID unit (up to 32T). OWC stated in a blog post that they are excited about the Mac Pro *and* MPX and they plan to bring their stuff to the new Mac Pro. It depends how Apple plays it, but it seems they already shared specs with other companies, with the idea of getting new expansion modules.
I personally think we will be surprised.

 

[JoSch]

If they don't pull an IBM and the licensing conditions aren't too harsh, it could be a thriving eco system, especially because the customers pay big money.

 

[deconstruct60]

Yea their “security” is lock-in that makes migrating your own data sometimes impossible.

That is only true if you have zero backups of your "Pro" data. Otherwise is it not true.

With a proprietary connector mated to the t2 chip no other storage maybe used

This is pragmatically a warped viewpoint. The T2 and the NAND daughter cards are basically two parts of the same subsystem. They are not logically separate.

Used for the default "out of the box' boot drive, yes it is the only option. The only possible storage option? Not even close.

which lets them charge even more absurd prices for their storage than in the past, outright gouging users.

Which is even less true in the new Mac Pro context where there is not a "one and only one", internal, storage drive constraint on the system.

Your apologies for them notwithstanding,

I'm not apologizing for reality. If Apple was solely looking for SSD markup they could have pretty easily just soldered the NAND chips to the board (in this new logic board). ( which would be cheaper BOM of to do and charge the same prices ... for even larger margin. ). Apple does have inflated prices on SSD capacity but they don't absolutely need the T2 in the slightest to maintain those higher prices. The T2 presence isn't making the SSD prices higher in and of itself.

it’s garbage.

In a myopic control freak (and form over function ) only unidimensional graph of utility, perhaps. But value ( useful/useless ; utility) has multiple dimensions to it.

To bring things a bit back toward the MPX module topic this thread started off on, this is close to the same problem of looking at the MPX modules only and not looking objectively at the MPX system that includes both the module and the MPX bay. Apple could have gone the control freak way and made MPX system something that only fit one set modules because "Apple has to be in control". Yet they didn't.

There is some where Apple can add substantive value where they take control and other areas where they cannot. MPX is a balance between the two where they could do both. Boot security is substantively different. If allow random 3rd parties to jump into the process the integrity can be compromised. If can point to how the other "form over function" solutions to this deliver better security then Apple solution could be "garbage' , but they don't. Security function is sacrificed to get the form ( mandated part dimensions).


Same "ultimate control" issue with the users . The pushing at Apple to just make Macs out of completely generic parts probably won't succeed long term. Nor is it a particular objective evaluation of value being offered.

 

[Ph.D.]

MPX modules are neat, but they will be an evolutionary dead-end, supported only by Apple and at best a few blessed third parties who won't directly compete with Apple.

The biggest risk is that Apple will not officially support new graphics cards, etc., on older machines. This was common practice back in the cMP days. A new iteration of the Pro would be announced with better graphics card options, but those new options were only officially supported on the new machines. You took your chances if you installed a new card in an older machine.

This got worse over time. Indeed, late in the life of my 3,1, my experience was that the last official Apple cards were only available for purchase as a "repair" part, and then only if I could prove (via serial number) that I owned an officially-compatible machine.

In addition, a next-gen mMP may very well have PCIe-4 or 5. New cards may be backward-compatible, but would not work at full performance in a PCIe-3 chassis.

But presumably you can install any other graphics card using only the standard PCI slot. Whether it's compatible or not, though ...

 

[Manzanito]

Going back to the MPX modules: it has been already said that they are optional and you can only use the PCIe part of them.
But i have the impression that Apple prepared this a bit better than what we expect, and not only concerning GPUs.
Pegasus already announced a MPX format RAID unit (up to 32T). OWC stated in a blog post that they are excited about the Mac Pro *and* MPX and they plan to bring their stuff to the new Mac Pro. It depends how Apple plays it, but it seems they already shared specs with other companies, with the idea of getting new expansion modules.
I personally think we will be surprised.

I think you are right.

 

[edgerider]

what i am almost sure is that there will be some chinese cheap adapter to convert the mpx connector on whatever we need or to 8pin pcie power.
unless there are some actual harware limitation to this with a sort of t2 chip
it remain unclear for me if the actual mpx connector next to the standard pcie slot is also a pcie slot but in a proprietary connector.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

You called him an apologist and that wasn't nice or meant to be nice, so I correctly characterize you as destructive.
It's surely not constructive to have to call you out, but it's not me deriding anybody who has something good to say about Apple or what they are doing. We don't have agree with everything, but don't seem to agree with nothing somebody has to say in favor of Apple out of principle.
You should have more fun there: https://www.facebook.com/apphaters/.

I don't know how you afford all the glass repairs with all the stones youre throwing. But carry on!

 

[JoSch]

And how does this comment contribute to a healthy debate? You seem to be resorting to name-calling to complain about what you interpret as name-calling in another post.

I don't know how you afford all the glass repairs with all the stones youre throwing. But carry on!

Sure, hit somebody and complain that you got hit back.

 

[theluggage]

Both. Top ports are really for temporary connections. Having two TB3 and two USB 3.1 on the rear is inadequate. It's unusual for any desktop box to have four total ports on the rear by default.

Bear in mind that every pair of Thunderbolt ports is a bunch (4?) of PCIe lanes committed - and the whole point of this MP is customisability. The MP has a ludicrous number of PCIe slots - even more than most PC desktop workstation - which can be used to add whatever connectivity you need (Fibre channel, 100Gb Ethernet, more USB A/C) - and other types of hardware (extra GPUs, specialist audio/video interfaces, storage) would be fitted internally as PCIe cards anyway.

On top of that - the base model has 4 x DisplayPort and 2 x HDMI, plus the VegaII MPX modules each add 4 TB3 ports, - any other MPX GPUs that appear will likely follow suit - so you're not going to be relying on the built-in TB3 ports for connecting displays (not that you'll want to once DP2.0 cards and displays start appearing, if Intel takes as long adding it to Thunderbolt as they did with DP1.4).

What I don't like is the idea of top-mounted ports on a machine that will often live under a desk. Seems to be the worst of both worlds c.f. front-mounted (for easy access) or rear-mounted (for tucking cables out of sight). Well, that and the way Apple couldn't contrive to make a $3k-$4k expandable desktop for those who need 0 < n < 8 PCIe slots and < 1TB RAM or - failing that - at least make the $6k machine substantially more powerful than the $5k iMP. Apart from that (Mrs Lincoln) I think the MPX concept is quite neat.

T2 is near useless. It locks in a proprietary SSD tech that is hugely over priced and slow. Almost any NVMe SSD is orders of magnitude cheaper, and is significantly faster.

...but at least with the Mac Pro you should be able to chuck in a PCIe-to-M.2 card to expand the internal storage and there's space & connectors for spinning rust (or cheap SATA SSDs) for bulk storage. Pegasus have already announced both a RAID module that goes in a MPX bay and a dual SATA cradle that goes at the top above the SATA/USB/power sockets.

The real problem with the built-in SSD is that the entry level 256GB is uneccessarily small for a system disc that will be used for pro applications and their temporary files.

The 10GbE ports are probably on the motherboard.

Nope - it says quite clearly on the Mac Pro tech specs page on apple.com that the PCIe I/O card contains 2 x TB3, 2 x 10GbE and 2xUSB 3.

 

[goMac]

Nope - it says quite clearly on the Mac Pro tech specs page on apple.com that the PCIe I/O card contains 2 x TB3, 2 x 10GbE and 2xUSB 3.

The Ethernet ports are on the power supply (!) and not the I/O card.

 

[JesterJJZ]

what i am almost sure is that there will be some chinese cheap adapter to convert the mpx connector on whatever we need or to 8pin pcie power.
unless there are some actual harware limitation to this with a sort of t2 chip
it remain unclear for me if the actual mpx connector next to the standard pcie slot is also a pcie slot but in a proprietary connector.

Hope so. I’d like to be able to throw in say 4x Radeon VIIs and be able to power them properly.

 

[ZombiePhysicist]

...but at least with the Mac Pro you should be able to chuck in a PCIe-to-M.2 card to expand the internal storage and there's space & connectors for spinning rust (or cheap SATA SSDs) for bulk storage. Pegasus have already announced both a RAID module that goes in a MPX bay and a dual SATA cradle that goes at the top above the SATA/USB/power sockets.

Agreed. And I think most folks will opt to get the small 256GB of T2 boat anchor storage, basically never use that, and chuck in PCI cards or even use the internal sata ports.

But the discussion was if the T2 was useless and basically it is. It's only clear cut value is the secure enclave (which is no small thing). But all it's other "features" (low quality MPEG encoding that is worse than CPU quality, encryption that ties the drive to the motherboard and locks in your data making migration and external booting an data retrieval a pain/too-iffy, sound interference, etc) can fairly be said to be boat anchors or worse.

 

[JoSch]

Thanks Don Quixote. Let me know how your tilting turns out for you.

How is that contributing to a healthy discussion?

But the discussion was if the T2 was useless and basically it is. It's only clear cut value is the secure enclave (which is no small thing). But all it's other "features" (low quality MPEG encoding that is worse than CPU quality, encryption that ties the drive to the motherboard and locks in your data making migration and external booting an data retrieval a pain/too-iffy, sound interference, etc) can fairly be said to be boat anchors or worse.

First of all, the discussion of the supposed uselessness of T2 was only started by you. This is a thread about MPX.
Secondly, T2 ensures the state of the OS. I know from my work as developer in the health insurance sector, that this ensurance is of paramount importance when dealing with health data. So, yes: T2 can make sense to secure and ensure the state of the OS.

 

[goMac]

First of all, the discussion of the supposed uselessness of T2 was only started by you. This is a thread about MPX.
Secondly, T2 ensures the state of the OS. I know from my work as developer in the health insurance sector, that this ensurance is of paramount importance when dealing with health data. So, yes: T2 can make sense to secure and ensure the state of the OS.

T2 also makes erase secure. Instead of worrying about people recovering your data off your Mac Pro after you sell it, you just trash the encryption key and the data is basically gone/irrecoverable. Or if you remove/sell the SSDs themselves, you don't have to worry about someone recovering data off them.

I know, probably dragging us more off topic.

 

[AidenShaw]

T2 also makes erase secure. Instead of worrying about people recovering your data off your Mac Pro after you sell it, you just trash the encryption key and the data is basically gone/irrecoverable. Or if you remove/sell the SSDs themselves, you don't have to worry about someone recovering data off them.

Have you heard of the 'secure erase' feature that all recent SSDs support?

You don't need T2 to erase an SSD.

 

[goMac]

Have you heard of the 'secure erase' feature that all recent SSDs support?

You don't need T2 to erase an SSD.

SSDs can't really be securely erased. You can try to do repeated writes like you'd do with a spinning drive, and it might work well enough for most use cases, but that has the side effect of burning through the life of a drive.

The other reliable option is destroying the drive.

 

[thevault]

Would there be issues if one mirrors the main ssd with the T2???