Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
I read a lot of reviews when I was shopping for a video card about 12 months ago. There were a LOT of problems, especially with crossfire, that have resolved over the past 2 years. There is still a whole lot of in-game frame-rate variability with Crossfire over SLI, and SLI over single GPU cards. There are also sometimes issues with games after their initial release (before the first update) but in general games are bug-fixed for SLI/Xfire before they are released nowadays.

That said, do you really think Apple's going to the OS X drivers as shorn up as the Windows Drivers? This is their first attempt; even with AMDs help it's going to be a bear.

Oh heck no, I wish they would, but yeah, excellent point on the drivers.

I run crossfire and have run it hard and every game pushed to max detail and still haven't had those issues from day one.

The only issue I have ever run into was an unrelated audio driver issue in Batman Arkham Asylum.
 
I read a lot of reviews when I was shopping for a video card about 12 months ago. There were a LOT of problems, especially with crossfire, that have resolved over the past 2 years. There is still a whole lot of in-game frame-rate variability with Crossfire over SLI, and SLI over single GPU cards. There are also sometimes issues with games after their initial release (before the first update) but in general games are bug-fixed for SLI/Xfire before they are released nowadays.

That said, do you really think Apple's going to the OS X drivers as shorn up as the Windows Drivers? This is their first attempt; even with AMDs help it's going to be a bear.

I think they've got a better shot than you'd expect - the Mac Pro is a single stable platform, with potentially only a single GPU type in a known configuration to target, with a fixed motherboard, etc.

Whereas on the PC side, the sheer number of combinations you have to design for, where everyone is doing their own thing, is rough. That being said, I don't think it'll happen.
 
He just posted some benchmarks demonstrating the latency with certain TB SATA controllers.

It's not a problem with TB itself, he's just showing that the some of the available TB devices aren't so great yet. As to whether this is a problem with most/all of the TB SATA controllers, I don't know.

I am not in favor of TB for desktops and therefore decidedly against Apple's move with the nMP, but I assumed that TB would theoretically be the same as PCIe, apart from the 1GB/s throughput per channel (TB2 is only 2 channels). However, if the technology hasn't matured yet, I wouldn't be surprised.

There's all this talk about how PCIe cards have been so unsupported on mac, while at the same time ignoring that the TB products are substandard and have many bugs of their own that may be even less likely to be resolved.

I'm still struggling to understand why people think TB is a replacement for regular old internal spinning disks when USB3 is there too
 
Buggy as hell? I've run a crossfire set up for 4 years and have yet to have one graphics related issue with it.

"Buggy as hell" doesn't mean every single person had a problem. The fact that you, one individual, found a setup that worked well for you doesn't prove wrong the plethora of complaints and problems from everyone else.
 
"Buggy as hell" doesn't mean every single person had a problem. The fact that you, one individual, found a setup that worked well for you doesn't prove wrong the plethora of complaints and problems from everyone else.

You make a good point, even adding in all the people I know running dual cards, it's a VERY limited sample size.
 
No, you haven't outlined how moving to USB3, TB, or high speed shared storage is a decrease in performance compared to your internal 7200 RPM. I have a hard time believing that video editors can edit off of 10Gbe but you "can't access files" off of 10Gbe at a reasonable rate of performance.

Video editors who do lots of sequential reads and writes, which 10GbE is suitable for.

Put an SSD (for example!!!) on a 10GbE network and then do random access tests and you'll see a drop.
 
I'm still struggling to understand why people think TB is a replacement for regular old internal spinning disks when USB3 is there too

Totally agree. I just got my 4,1 back from an Apple Store repair. It's so nice to have all five hard drives back inside where they all work together with the push of one button.

If I was using SSDs or RAID HDs I could understand a need for additional bandwidth and expensive, external hardware. The external disk to disk backups is even done via FW800. Unless I need to copy a disk FW works just fine.

One of these days I may lose my fear of USB3 and upgrade backup speed but I really like having internal hard drives.
 
Video editors who do lots of sequential reads and writes, which 10GbE is suitable for.

Put an SSD (for example!!!) on a 10GbE network and then do random access tests and you'll see a drop.

No one said that the performance of drives over a network was the exact same as it was locally - what I don't understand is why some people outline this as a problem when it isn't for any modern user of dense storage. People have been dealing with that drawback since SANs were first used. Given the centralization of storage today - It doesn't seem to be a problem...
 
No one said that the performance of drives over a network was the exact same as it was locally - what I don't understand is why some people outline this as a problem when it isn't for any modern user of dense storage. People have been dealing with that drawback since SANs were first used. Given the centralization of storage today - It doesn't seem to be a problem...

Ok, so how much does a high performance 10GbE setup cost?

So now weve gone full circle round to it being expensive!

Excellent, progress has been made...
 
Ok, so how much does a high performance 10GbE setup cost?

So now weve gone full circle round to it being expensive!

Excellent, progress has been made...

Why would you even need 10Gbe when you are using 7200 RPM discs in your tower?? This is what I'm saying - how does 10Gbe even come into question when an external HDD plugged through USB3 would achieve what you are looking for??
 
Why would you even need 10Gbe when you are using 7200 RPM discs in your tower?? This is what I'm saying - how does 10Gbe even come into question when an external HDD plugged through USB3 would achieve what you are looking for??


I have two Barracudas (200MB/sec!) disks in my Mac Pro along with another two disks.

So I need, at minimum, a four bay enclosure which USB 3 does not support and has performance degradation anyway.

I'm baffled to as why you think having multiple boxes on my desk is an acceptable solution to a problem that didn't exist before hand.

The irony is that now with everything pushing towards energy efficiency I could have a number of 12V adapters and multiple PSUs everywhere.

Im all in favour of technology pushing forward, but if it comes at the expense of other things then that is NOT progress.
 
Sorry, can you repeat the part after 'This essay starts'... I missed it... :)

The essay is talking about itself in the 3rd person. THE ESSAY HAS BECOME SENTIENT AND TALKS LIKE BOB DOLE! GOD HELP US! SAVE JOHN CONNER!
 
I have two Barracudas (200MB/sec!) disks in my Mac Pro along with another two disks.

So I need, at minimum, a four bay enclosure which USB 3 does not support and has performance degradation anyway.

I'm baffled to as why you think having multiple boxes on my desk is an acceptable solution to a problem that didn't exist before hand.

The irony is that now with everything pushing towards energy efficiency I could have a number of 12V adapters and multiple PSUs everywhere.

Im all in favour of technology pushing forward, but if it comes at the expense of other things then that is NOT progress.

Well seeing as how the workstation itself is now a small device instead of the large obtuse box it was before - I don't see how having a few extra boxes is a big deal. 200MB/Sec a problem with USB3? News to me!! Same for it not supporting 4 drives. Really now.

I'm not sure why you think putting the discs inside of the tower would reflect technology pushing forward, when the industry has been moving towards centralized storage for years now.
 
Why do we need every available drive to have the same latency anyway? Some things benefit from being on an internal SSD and some things don't. Having a rational storage plan is the real issue -- not how many drives I want to cram into my desktop.
 
Why do we need every available drive to have the same latency anyway? Some things benefit from being on an internal SSD and some things don't. Having a rational storage plan is the real issue -- not how many drives I want to cram into my desktop.

Well said. I have an SSD for the system and another for user data. But my iTunes library and other media files reside on HDD where the cost per MB is much more reasonable. And image backups are all on HDD.

While I like the fact that all of these currently fit in my 5,1 MP, I'm not married to having them in the same enclosure. Besides, it sits under my desk, as will the nMP (and its disk farm) should it meet my ideas of what is an acceptable price and the availability of appropriate drive enclosures.
 
What you are missing here, is that my original post was about the fact that for the most part the desktop is dying. It is becoming more and more of a niche product. The sales numbers prove that.
What you are missing is the ability to actually interpret those numbers. These numbers are for the major part about CONSUMERS and not companies (Apple and most other companies mainly manufacture for consumers). Which makes your entire point moot.

You seem to think that the data anymore is stored in the "working" building. No longer my friend.
You seem to think there are only fortune 500 companies and their only task is to work with digital data that is stored on a computer or some storage network. There is no such thing. There are more companies that are not fortune 500 than there are fortune 500 companies. There are also more companies working with analogue technologies or where a computer doesn't do much with data. Apple is aiming for the entire audience, not only for the Prada underwear wearing people in the audience!

For example there are companies such as Foxconn where they build computers. If their facility burns down they lose their production facility and thus can't produce. Moving to another site with their computers will not bring back the machines that make the components. Those machines are what allows them to do their core business, not the data and not the notebooks. This applies to ANY production company.

What about universities? They have quite a lot of labs and such. The University of Delft (TU Delft) in the Netherlands has had a building where a vending machine caused a short circuit. The entire building burned down. In that building they had a huge collection of rare chairs and other design items. The fire brigade rescued some of it, other parts were lost. Lots of people lost their project because it was an actual thing (the building housed the constructional engineering department for example) or plain paper. They didn't lose their digital data because it was housed on storage elsewhere on the campus. It took them a few days to get back with teaching because they had to put up tents for that. They were out of business for a certain amount of months yet they could take their notebooks elsewhere and work with the data in the datacentre. Why? Because an organisation consist of far more than computers and data.

How about hospitals, fire brigades, law enforcement, etc.? Same thing. A company or organisation does not exist of only digital data and computers. A company is much more than that. That's why it is not a matter of grabbing notebooks and going elsewhere. You clearly haven't dealt with these kind of situations. If you did you'd have known this! This is also basic economics.

Nope. Companies big and small are going portable. But instead of having you store data on your computer, you store it on the network. We all have laptops with "small" 128GB SSD's in them. Why? Because that isn't our primary storage. In fact the company does network sweeps regularly to make sure that we aren't storing a bunch of personal data.
Now go do field research in India or Africa where there is no network whatsoever and try accessing your data such as something simple and easy to access as e-mail. Try something similar in an underground car park, basement, etc. somewhere on site. Usually there will be no reception to the outside world so no e-mail, no vpn tunnel to the company in order to access data. That's why there are notebooks with ssd's for speed and a huge disk for storage.

Btw, the network sweep for personal data isn't allowed in many countries due to privacy laws. In order to see if it is personal or work related data you have to look into the data and that is a criminal offence in such countries. This is different in the UK and the USA where there simply isn't any privacy any more but those countries are not the only countries Apples aims it products at.

Heck we don't even have a developer anymore in our building that has a desktop. The only desktops to even be found are the guys who put together our promotional videos.
Quite a lot are still using a desktop because it is cheaper to buy. For (IT) management it doesn't really matter (you simply roll out the same installation) although notebooks are more prone to problems (obviously...because they get a lot more beating than a desktop sitting in a corner under a desk).

I would say that the Mac Pro forum is an insignificant number of people to be honest compared to overall sales. And many who have Mac Pros could be just as easily served by a Macbook Pro or Mac Mini. I'm in the process of replacing my Mac Pro.
The Mac Pro itself is a niche product as much as any other kind of workstation is. There are some professions that require such a beast of a machine, but many others that do not. Technology is also improving a lot. Where you used to use an MBA purely for text work you can now use it to game, virtualise, etc. The performance line between desktops, notebooks, all-in-ones, etc. is becoming thinner and thinner. This new Mac Pro clearly shows how far we can go with modern day technology. It used to be this really big case, it is now something tiny. Yet the tiny thing is more powerful than the really big cased computer. We'll see machines like this disappear in the future eventually but not now. Even though this is a niche product there still is enough demand for it. If there weren't, Apple would have killed it like they did with the Xserve.

I'll give you gaming as well, but frankly that's not a mac strong suit no matter what many will try to tell you.
It depends on what that person defines as gaming. If you want high end games than stick with an ordinary homebrew Windows pc.
 
What you are missing is the ability to actually interpret those numbers. These numbers are for the major part about CONSUMERS and not companies...

A fair enough point, although I do believe that the Pro has traditionally had a major segment of specialty business sales volume.

You seem to think there are only fortune 500 companies and their only task is to work with digital data that is stored on a computer or some storage network. There is no such thing

Personally, I suspect that Apple is focused on the pro movie business types .. and while certain IT practices such as in data centralization may be present, that is functionally self-limiting their market and thus sales by making it too optimized. Of course, the real factor there also includes software.

What about universities? They have quite a lot of labs and such. The University of Delft (TU Delft) in the Netherlands has had a building where a vending machine caused a short circuit. The entire building burned down.


Oh poor Delft! Another 'Thunderclap' -like event.

But you're right: a Fortune 100 company I'm familiar with has done the smart thing in establishing redundant data centers .. But what wasn't realized until much later (and $$$$s) was that BOTH were located on the same power grid...

Now go do field research in India or Africa where there is no network whatsoever ...

....or even in most of the USA, where 'High Speed' Internet doesn't exist in 80% of households, let alone at World marketplace competitive rates, such as to be able to move large files - - such as an OS X install(!).


-hh
 
Thunderbolt is going to give new breath for external expansion boxes (mostly for Graphics Cards).

I am currently running a 2012 Mac Mini with an nVidia 660 desktop gpu hooked up using the Thunderbolt port. This is working in OS X and in Windows 8. I have an incredibly powerful Mac that costs $1100 less than the baseline Mac Pro, and an argument can be made for which one is better.

The thing is Thunderbolt can redefine how consumers have their computers set up. You have the base system, such as the new Mac Pro, and you can add virtually anything to it via Thunderbolt. And since everything is external, upgrades are much easier and a certain part isn't just locked to one system.

I'm not sure whether Apple would be willing to do it, but a small part of me wouldn't be surprised if they sold external pci-thunderbolt enclosures once Thunderbolt 2 gains momentum. This is what Thunderbolt was designed to do, so it really depends on whether Apple understands this.
 
Interesting read, but I think a more fair assessment, kept as brief as possible:

The Good:
  • Plenty of bandwidth for most peripheral applications; Thunderbolt 1 delivering 10Gbps, and Thunderbolt 2 doubling this, means it can happily support most large capacity storage systems, and many high-speed (SSD/Flash) storage systems.
  • Hot-pluggable.
  • Standard interface across all systems; currently the entire Mac lineup, hopefully more of the PC market in future. This means Macs can easily share peripherals such as displays, backup drives etc.
  • Very little internal space requirement allowing for smaller form-factors, also potentially allows machines that never had PCIe expansion support to gain access to options they never had before.
  • Can daisy chain up to six devices per port (bigger deal for machines with fewer ports). Only require space for the devices you need.
  • Compatible with DisplayPort devices for pure video or mixed Thunderbolt/DisplayPort for video + hub etc.
  • Potentially better cross-platform support.

The Bad:
  • Significantly less bandwidth than some PCIe devices could use, e.g - GPUs, very high capacity/speed storage etc.
  • Only offers 10W per port, meaning external devices require their own power supplies.
  • Potential cabling nightmare + wasted space compared to fully internal solutions.
  • Currently a lot less choice for devices, even less for Thunderbolt 2 devices.
  • PCIe v4.0 and USB 3.1 just around the corner, which means Thunderbolt 2 still doesn't have all that much of a lead in performance over USB, and will soon be even further behind PCIe/external PCIe.

The Ugly:
  • Cost. Likely to go down eventually, but currently devices are mostly premium priced, even if not premium quality.
  • Poor changeover from existing devices (expensive PCIe enclosures are a poor option). This combines with high prices to make barrier to entry very high.
  • Intel controlled with overly strict requirements, creating a high barrier to entry for manufacturers.


I've probably missed a few things, but that just about covers it.

The way I see it, Thunderbolt is a great way to cut down on the need for PCIe expansion, but I was surprised that Apple went to such an extreme in a single step; I had hoped to see a smaller workstation style Mac Pro that ditched optical bays, 3.5" drive bays and maybe a PCIe slot or two in favour of 2.5" drive bays with integrated RAID, plus Thunderbolt expansion to create a mini-workstation that still retained a lot of internal and external flexibility. With all interfaces upgraded to modern standards of course.

I was surprised that they've gone so far with Thunderbolt in a single step, as it gives us no stage in between internal and external, creating a bigger financial and technical burden for anyone upgrading, especially since I'm not convinced of the quality or value of current Thunderbolt offerings. Still managed to make a desirable machine though, assuming energy efficiency, noise and size are important to you.
 
I was surprised that they've gone so far with Thunderbolt in a single step, as it gives us no stage in between internal and external, creating a bigger financial and technical burden for anyone upgrading, especially since I'm not convinced of the quality or value of current Thunderbolt offerings. Still managed to make a desirable machine though, assuming energy efficiency, noise and size are important to you.

This is typical Apple. They were never that concerned about cutting their ties to various technologies be it Floppy or SCSI. I think it's better to do it this way. If they released a machine with both PCI-e and Thunderbolt, people would still invest in PCI-e solutions instead of TB, the manufacturers still would not care much about TB, and when Apple eventually made the switch, the same thing still would have happened, just a bit later on. The quicker the transition the better.
 
If they released a machine with both PCI-e and Thunderbolt, people would still invest in PCI-e solutions instead of TB

I totally agree. Now, a question: Why do you think that's the case?

Is it because PCIe is more desirable due to it being less expensive, more efficient, faster, and more widely used?
 
Why Thunderbolt

3. Computers are systems and rarely does unlocking one bottleneck not reveal another immediately whereby the ultimate solution is an upgrade of several key components to really unlock new computing potential. At this point it's usually warranted to upgrade the whole system anyway (including CPU, I/O, and GPU).

I video edit on a 2.66 Quad-Core 4,1 Mac Pro with the 4870 GPU that came with the Mac Pro when I bought it. If I just upgrade the GPU to the GTX 680 I won't see the gains that Barefeats has shown because I have an underpowered CPU?
 
Movement of jobs and moving in general causes the need for mobile computing. Job movement is down job relocations are down.

Less need for mobile computing.

But yet the use of mobile computing in business had dramatically increased.

You don't have to use it only for travel to another location. Many are used for point of sales in retail stores. Which are often much cheaper to implement. Presentations during meetings. and so on...
 
[*]Intel controlled with overly strict requirements, creating a high barrier to entry for manufacturers.[/list]

is it publicly known what these requirements are? seems as if intel would be lenient/encouraging to get other manufacturers involved.. they're the ones placing the controllers on the motherboards but, as far as i can gather, they aren't making peripherals.. but they'll make money on every single thunderbolt device which is sold.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.