My First Job. Critiques/Ideas needed!

[SwiftLives]

bbeers - Valid points.

But I'm a much much better designer than any half-wit who things that a copy of Publisher, MS Paint, and a piece of clip art from Google makes him a designer.

And my work shows that.

Frankly, I don't want to do business with a client who is unable or unwilling to see the difference. (In my experience, they don't tend to pay much and are significantly more trouble than they're worth.)

My advice is this: Develop an ego. I'm not saying that you need to become an arrogant ****. You just need to tell yourself that you're a good designer. You'd be very surprised what you can sell to a client with a little bit of confidence.

I don't sweat the novices undercutting me and taking food off my table quite like I used to.

 

[arkitect]

So you think you can talk down to him because you have a meaningless qualification.

Wow. Pardon me if I say you come across just a tad bitter…
What did happen at that college of yours?

 

[Dal123]

Lol you think I'm being bitter. Read the posts. It seems majority are bitter on here because someone without a qualification is designing a logo. Everyone thinks they are out of a job so funny.

 

[SwiftLives]

Okay. Moving back to the original concept of this thread...

MacDaddy901 - Lose the color. For the time being, you should concentrate on form, not on color. As others have said, color is secondary.

I like where you're going with your latest design - the first aid cross in the "O" makes a lot of sense. I do think it needs to be bigger and bolder, as it does not come across as deliberate at the moment, nor does it look like the first aid cross.

Why is the baseline of "growth" flush with the bottom of the black box? For that matter, why do you need the reversed out text? Why do you need the small caps? Why that particular typeface?

While everything you do doesn't necessarily have to have a reason, it does need to be deliberate. And you need to be able to explain questions such as I've posed to your client. Or at least come up with a complete BS answer on the spot.

Keep exploring. Your work has a lot of potential.

Last bit of advice - keep it simple. Lines and boxes and reversed text aren't necessary to make a good logo.

 

[bbeers]

But I'm a much much better designer than any half-wit who things that a copy of Publisher, MS Paint, and a piece of clip art from Google makes him a designer.

And my work shows that.

As am I, but sometimes potential clients don't go past the.. so and son has a kid who can do it cheap, or so on.

Frankly, I don't want to do business with a client who is unable or unwilling to see the difference. (In my experience, they don't tend to pay much and are significantly more trouble than they're worth.)

I can agree with that most of the time. But sometime you do need to take what ever you can get to feed the little mouths. And I will always take an underpaid job to no job at all in that respect.

 

[MacDaddy901]

SwiftLives. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. That is all I wanted.

 

[THX1139]

Wow. If most of the designers are as hostile and selfish as they are here then I might not want to go into this field...

And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

 

[Gelfin]

Lets talk about the high level programming assistance I provide on forums, free of charge. Are you indicating that my skills are lesser than your graphical skills? My point is that he was simply asking for help. And if someone asks me for programming help, I help if I can. If I don't want to, I don't. But I don't say I have paid $X,000 for my college programming classes and until you do so I refuse to help you.

I guess thats where we differ. The programming community is a very open, helpful community. I suppose the same can't be said about graphic designers. A lesson learned.

Try that same programming community, though, by going in and saying, "I have this great idea for an iPhone app. Tell me how to make it." You'll see the same negative reaction.

The difference is that the barrier to entry for design is very low, so you get more the equivalent of somebody who comes into a programming forum with a piece of code composed primarily of chewing gum and happy thoughts asking why it doesn't work.

We are all prone to getting a little testy when someone seems to deeply underestimate the complexity involved in skills we've spent years honing. Trying to kickstart them into operating at their own level so that they can appreciate the task before them and grow into it normally is always going to feel a little abusive even when done with the best of intentions.

OP, if I were trying to become better at logo design, what I would probably do is go and start entering every Worth1000 Free Logo Contest I could make time for. Be sure to check that you want feedback. Be sure to follow the rules, as they are serious about rejecting those that don't conform. Over time, you should start getting a feel for your weaknesses through feedback, and your strengths by observing what efforts result in higher scores.

 

[bbeers]

So I'm scared to post these and ask for and opinion, but maybe there are some generous people out their who don't think their opinion is worth money. And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

I agree with SwiftLives, and feel that this is headed in a much better direction. Have you tried other type choices. I am not feeling feeling that type, is it Antenna Regular? maybe something like a flared-sans or just a different san-serif.

 

[bbeers]

No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.

 

[mwchris]

Get Over Yourself!

No, actually designers are usually a bunch of friendly people. We just don't like it when someone comes along and acts as a poser saying that they are doing a particular "design" because it's a great chance to make some big money- then asks us to help them do it. I spend a lot of time helping others who are pursuing design. But if they don't have the basics down and seem to be unwilling to devote time to learning those basics, well.. I have an aversion to that because it cheapens the industry. An industry that I'm pretty protective of and have spent thousands of hours learning.

How is he a poser? You mean you never once did any type of art prior to COMPLETING your degree? Reading that previous statement, and other "designer" threads here makes me think of something . . . "One bad apple spoils the bunch"

And for the record, I'm NOT jealous that you are making money. The feeling is better described as frustration for what you are asking help with. If you would have come here with some tight designs and needed some crit to finish them off, I would have willingly helped. But then again, you don't listen to advice that is given... so maybe not.

So because his designs did not fit your opinion of "tight" he shouldn't ask for help? Sure looks like he put forth effort to me, probably spending hours of time, which I'm sure would have taken you minutes with your formal training and all . . .

For those of you who don't agree and think I'm being too harsh, well then you have no respect for what designers have to learn to be good at what we do. You can go anywhere and pickup a book on programming and teach yourself. Not so easy to do with design. Design requires multiple disciplines in order to be any good. Art history, design history, math, writing, color-theory, print production and pre-press, interface design, typography, photography, architecture, drawing skills, grid, proportion, gestalt theory, etc. Then there are all of the programs that you need to become expert at. Yeah, some of you "designers" want to skip directly over the fundamentals and go right into Photoshop/Illustrator because you think that is where the magic happens. That is what the OP appears to have done and I spotted it right away.

Again, way to represent your fellow "designers". I would not want to be lumped into "your" group . . . You say that design is so complex and that you can't be self taught . . . that's a load of crap! MOST artistic people have it in them well before they have taken any formal course work. Sure they learn a few design elements here and there, but don't even try to tell me that to be a "designer" you have to have taken part in some serious formal training.

So, what's wrong with helping someone in his situation? Well, let's say he gets hired by a business for a measly $20, of which is is willing to take because he is "just getting started." Next, he creates/copies a few designs and then come here to have us fix them. Some of you generous people give him advice and maybe he manages to come out with something decent and takes them to the client who uses them in their business. Well that's okay, right? NO! First off, you have managed to devalue logo design to $20 and that has a slight ripple effect over the industry. Secondly, you have created a logo for the OPs portfolio that he can maybe use to get another (cheap) job from a (cheap) client and so it goes on and on. It reminds me of outsourcing!

So what!? Would you rather him be making $200, or $2,000, or $20,000?? Of course not because then you would attack him because he has no formal training. It is just crazy for someone who has no formal training, and not spent X number of dollars, and X number of hours to produce an image a client may like and pay for . . .I'm sure no one has ever helped you do anything, let alone anything that you received some sort of "payment" for.

I'll end this by saying that I'm sorry if I offended anyone. However, I won't make apologies for my feeling about what it takes to be a graphic designer. I have invested too much money, too many over-nighters, and endless hours of harsh crit to make apologies for an industry that I love.

You might want to add that you are sorry for insulting other "designers" by displaying such a poor attitude . . . I'm sorry that you are insulted by someone who has some artistic ability without having such formal training, regardless of whether it meets yours, or industry "standards". I believe the saying is something like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" . . . As long as he likes it and the client likes AND he is ok with getting $20 for it, so what!?!?!


The "I got mine, go earn yours attitude" has got to stop! If you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all!


To the OP, nice job! I agree with many of the others comments of making sure you have some sort of purpose, and be sure it is something that is recognizable to the client and general public. For example show it to someone else and see if they can figure out what the company does or something like that . . . Keep up the hard work and ignore the the helpless!

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

Wow. If most of the designers are as hostile and selfish as they are here then I might not want to go into this field. I though you guys could give me some good help, a step in the right direction. But I guess I was wrong. You would think that I was personally taking all of your work.

I'm sorry I asked for some opinions but obviously I won't be getting any. Only belittled because I haven't taken design courses and haven't been in the business for years. And I don't live anywhere near London and I've never seen that logo. So I didn't copy it.

So I'm scared to post these and ask for and opinion, but maybe there are some generous people out their who don't think their opinion is worth money. And by the way, I'm getting $20 for this.

That's pretty darned good actually for a beginner. I'd have a look at some other fonts though - personally I'd want the 'o' in 'Growth' to be a perfect circle, which it isn't in this font.

For what it's worth, I know a fairly successful graphic designer with some pretty high profile clients. He never had any 'formal' training, just had he desire to create inside him. In my experience, designers tend to dislike other designers - probably largely due to differing tastes in design and looks. Programmers on the other hand usually are aiming at solving a problem or getting a job done and so are more friendly towards one another.

Keep up the good work and once you're finished with this logo, play around doing logos for other things even if they're not jobs so as to practice.

 

[mwchris]

Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.

How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

 

[Designer Dale]

Notes for the OP

Hi.

I've posted bad design here and been hit hard by the pros. I learned to not take it personally and separate the comments from the criticism. The main thing I learned in a short time was to start working on a small pallet. You seem to be working on a 9.5 inch US space, and that is not good for something that will be most used on a business card. You first stated that you liked the third and have since revamped the first. Here are what they look like at business card size.

Dale

 

[THX1139]

Thanks you for being so much more articulate than I am. I completely agree with you. I wish the industry would pick up a licensing. Something that would allow designers to demonstrate they have the basic concepts of design under there belt. Some kind of written test, nothing based off quality, leave that for the portfolio, but something that will allow the client to know exactly what to expect. This way we can increase the design world as a whole.

Thanks. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm trying to convey. The difference of opinion reminds me of Obama vs McCain. You can't sway on side to the other. What I would be interested to see is whether there are any established designers (who have reputable degrees) who disagree with my position. I suspect that the defenders of the OP are NOT graphic designers.

I agree that the industry needs to push for accreditation of some sort. There has been some discussion of having some kind of sponsorship through AIGA, but that was awhile ago so I don't know what became of that. The way to get qualified could be through a certain amount of work experience (test), or a 4 year degree through a qualified school. Of course that wouldn't stop amateurs from designing, or businesses from hiring them. But it would go along way towards legitimizing the industry and separating those who have put in their dues in from those who haven't. That would also give room to help people as they are trying to learn the trade. If you were a first timer needing a bit of help, I would definitely be down for that if they were a part of an apprenticeship for certification. Of course, there would probably be rules that didn't allow for doing $20 logos while you are still learning.

 

[THX1139]

How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

You are the one who needs to "get over" yourself.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. You all have fun designing the logo. Make sure the OP sends you a dollar for helping out.

 

[MacDaddy901]

Thanks. It's good to know that someone understands what I'm trying to convey. The difference of opinion reminds me of Obama vs McCain. You can't sway on side to the other. What I would be interested to see is whether there are any established designers (who have reputable degrees) who disagree with my position. I suspect that the defenders of the OP are NOT graphic designers.

So what you just said is "Is there anyone out there who has the same exact viewpoint as me, disagree with me?". Ill answers that for you, probably not a whole lot. Especially since established to you obviously means you have a college degree. My uncle is an "established" web designer and hasn't ever been to college.

There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.

Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

I never "SOLD" my services. I never went and pursued this person to pay me. I didn't advertise my skills, because right now, I am a novice at this, and all I was SIMPLY trying to do what get someone elses opinion of my work. Not have it done for me, not have someone else make me one, but give me YOUR thoughts on MY work. But obviously you would like me to already be a professional to get your advice or pay you.

So I'll send you the dollar, because it sounds like you need it way more than I do.

 

[bbeers]

How is it any different to any other profession? Should all professions require a test? Your "Certification" is your portfolio, client references/referrals, etc. etc.

You say you don't want a test based off of quality, but yet want something that will allow the client to expect? I believe what I previously mentioned will do just that.

There are plenty of "self-taught" artists out there that do just fine, and do not degrade the "design" community, but perhaps make better.

Just because someone took part in formal training and paid money for it does not make them an expert or necessarily any better than someone who has not done the same.

Get over yourselves!

A lot of other industries have or require certification, why should graphic design be any different. And the test I would like to see would test for design concepts, it would have nothing to do with formal training at all. I don't care if someone has formal training or is just naturally talented towards design, as long as the work that comes out follow some basic design principles.

And for every self taught artist that improve the community, because I do agree there are plenty out there, there are more that hurt it.

I am sorry if you don't see this or can't except it, but some people went through the trouble of working hard and studying their chosen field to become a designer and feel cheapened when a random joe comes along with publisher and tries to call themselves a designer.

 

[Muncher]

So what you just said is "Is there anyone out there who has the same exact viewpoint as me, disagree with me?". Ill answers that for you, probably not a whole lot. Especially since established to you obviously means you have a college degree. My uncle is an "established" web designer and hasn't ever been to college.

There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.

Look, it's not worth arguing. There are people here who are willing to give you some advice, don't bother with the others. No, creativity can't be taught. In fact, I really dislike art classes. I've had some basic formal instruction in Graphic Design, and I can say that the only truly core idea I picked up on (other than using that demonic Illustrator pen tool ) was mindset. You just need to find what the company/person/entity you're designing logos for is, and represent that well.

One the other hand, I do see the point of some of the designers here. They would be more helpful if your design was closer to completion. Instead, they find it frustrating that you're asking such elementary questions.

My advice for your logo: I think it would be better without the subtle emboss/drop shadow. Also, the plus should be thicker. The font is good, but I feel like the bottoms of the letters are cut off, and looking at it I can't tell whether that's intentional. Either way, it bothers me. Good work for a beginner though!

 

[mwchris]

Wow dude, way to take the whole conversation out of context! First off, no one here (or at least I didn't) say anything bad about a self-taught designer who put their dues in. I don't think anyone is going to minimize a person who spent countless hours learning how to do decent design on their own (before selling their services). However, I do believe that formal training almost always improve design skills if you are willing to learn and go to a good school (or internship). What I was trying to convey in my posts is when someone who has little or no experience SELLS his services, then comes on to a forum like this to have people help him finish what he couldn't do with the basics. There are more ethical ways to teach yourself if that is the way you want to go, or can't afford an education.

And for what it's worth... there is quite a difference between "Artist" and "Designer." Designer is far more technical of a vocation. Of course, how would you know that?

You are the one who needs to "get over" yourself.

Okay, I'm done with this thread. You all have fun designing the logo. Make sure the OP sends you a dollar for helping out.

There you go again with "putting your dues in". Everything you say is so subjective! His design was not "tight" enough for you. What he is doing is not ethical. And now he hasn't put his "dues" in, how do you know? Art, and design for what it's worth, are all very subjective, so as I previously stated before if the client likes the product, and the artist, or designer do not mind getting $20 for it then what does it matter. Isn't it up to the client in the end?

Also for what it's worth, judging from the first post, his neighbor, or client in this case, sought him out. The neighbor knew the OP had an interest in design and gave him a shot. Perhaps you should work on a better advertising campaign . . .

Additionally I'd like to add that I do indeed understand what you mean by saying you don't like when others cheapen the design industry by not charging similiar prices. However, one would be wise to take a look at the current economic outlook and realize that prices are going to drop, not because people don't find value in good workmanship, but simply because they can't afford it. And, again I say, it is all subjective! If a client pays $20 for a design and they like it, why pay $200?

Recently there was a news article where Macy's paid for a new city logo for Cincinnati at a cost of $75,000. Which, in my opinion is quite ugly, no matter what "designer" rules it does or does not follow! (link below) http://www.fox19.com/Global/story.asp?S=10522103


Oh, and I like how you ignored my first response

Original poster, keep up the good work! I'll offer any suggestions I can!

 

[gillboyswims96]

i like the colored ones nice job

 

[bbeers]

There are people that could go to college for 4 years, take all of the classes you mentioned, and still be absolutely terrible at graphic design. My brother's fiance went to 4 years studying interior design and can't get a good paying job. Why? Because she sucks at interior design.

That is what a portfolio is for.

Does getting a degree hurt. No, I'm not saying that. But saying that graphic design is something that can be learned through books, is insane. You have it, or you don't. Creativity can't be taught.

I would say that there is a lot about graphic design that can be learned from a book. There is a whole technical aspect to graphic design that some people just don't know or haven't heard about. And while creativity might not be able to be taught, what can be taught it how to explore the creativity that you do have and how to exploit it to your benefits. School/training teach you so much more than just how to makes things pretty. One of the most important lessons I learned is school is how to take criticism and use it to please the client. Because in the the end that is who is paying.

I never "SOLD" my services.

If you are being paid, services are being sold. It doesn't matter who sought out whom.

 

[KeithPratt]

Creativity can't be taught.

Design 101.

To the rather unwelcoming critics: not everybody who posts here has the ambition of stealing your work as 'designer extraordinaire'. Some just want to hear somebody tell them their design is decent. You know, to give them a little confidence boost.

Take the designer's cap off for a moment and try being a human being. Let's show a little love.

 

[Spanky Deluxe]

A 'designer' that spends $$$$$ on 'training' is worth squat compared to a self-trained designer if he can't give a client what they want. There are plenty of 'highly trained' designers that get paid a lot of money to churn out crap. Its all about giving the client what they want.

After all, someone was paid £400,000 for designing this. A logo that even gave people migraines and seizures.

Honestly, so many designers are so far up their own arse that I'm amazed they have any light to see what they're designing. Why care about the 'industry' being 'cheapened' when you're working in a completely different price bracket. Do you really think that someone who wanted to spend $20 on a logo would be willing to spend $$$$ on something from a long standing design pro? Of course not! The successful design folk I know don't care that competitors are cheaper than them - they rely on their work being noticeably better than that of their competitors instead. If a designer is genuinely worried about the profession being 'cheapened' by a newbee with no experience charging a fraction of your usual prices then it might be worth sitting back and working out how to improve your own work.

 

[Muncher]

A 'designer' that spends $$$$$ on 'training' is worth squat compared to a self-trained designer if he can't give a client what they want. There are plenty of 'highly trained' designers that get paid a lot of money to churn out crap. Its all about giving the client what they want.

After all, someone was paid £400,000 for designing this. A logo that even gave people migraines and seizures.

Honestly, so many designers are so far up their own arse that I'm amazed they have any light to see what they're designing. Why care about the 'industry' being 'cheapened' when you're working in a completely different price bracket. Do you really think that someone who wanted to spend $20 on a logo would be willing to spend $$$$ on something from a long standing design pro? Of course not! The successful design folk I know don't care that competitors are cheaper than them - they rely on their work being noticeably better than that of their competitors instead. If a designer is genuinely worried about the profession being 'cheapened' by a newbee with no experience charging a fraction of your usual prices then it might be worth sitting back and working out how to improve your own work.

Ha! I remember in a design class the teacher used that london logo as an example of everything that could be wrong. I read your description of the logo before opening it and I thought that's what it was going to be. I completely agree with the rest of your post; if a designer isn't worth what he's being paid, regardless of his training, he shouldn't be getting paid that much.