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That's a by product of an open ecosystem that benefits no one except the scammers.
"No one is a big criteria, all it takes is for one to prove it false."
It doesn’t exist on iOS
Yes it does. And still does today - though I won't be linking such stores here myself.
Not the same
Why not? If I can invite the friends I choose to my gated community house, you aren't forced to invite anyone.

Very fitting analogy IMO.

It's only when you force an authoritarian decision-making body on everyone that some of my friends may not pass their/its scrutiny.
 
"No one is a big criteria, all it takes is for one to prove it false."

Yes it does. And still does today - though I won't be linking such stores here myself.

Why not? If I can invite the friends I choose to my gated community house, you aren't forced to invite anyone.

Very fitting analogy IMO.

It's only when you force an authoritarian decision-making body on everyone that some of my friends may not pass their/its scrutiny.
Yes. There are legal stores that have to be applied through apple and given a certificate. Not pop up stores.
 
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Reality has to be taken into account. Guns are great as personal protection. Maybe we should allow everyone to get a gun without a background check or license. Let's just focus on the positives and not the negatives.

Reality is looking at the good and bad, not focusing on the bad. Otherwise if you only focus on the negatives, you might as well push to have Apple shut down.



This type of broad based legislation will facilitate the use of the products for even easier "unsavory" or "illegal" activities. Sure let's shut Apple and Google down and let the world figure out by themselves how they are going to get and use cell phones. Let's roll the clock back to 1980. /s

1980 may not be going back far enough. I am sure some people were using their Apple I, Apple II, Apple II+ and Apple III computers for "unsavory" and illegal activities.

Thanks for reminding people how rotten companies like Apple can be for society. Whether it be from use of their computers, smartphones, web browsers or other products, Apple has been a major force in corrupting societies around the world for decades. They really do need to be shut down! /s
 
Leave iOS be. What is inherently wrong with choice here? Opening up iOS does not help the consumer. It won't suddenly resolve the "duopoly" issue people keep posting here.

The choice here:
Gated community - iOS
Open community - Android

There was a choice of desktop operating systems in the 1990s. Are you saying that governments were wrong to go after Microsoft for trying to put restrictions on things like which browsers were or weren't allowed to be sold with Windows? Microsoft didn't even prevent end users from installing alternative browsers yet governments came down on them and a U.S. District Court judge even ruled to have Microsoft split into two companies, although that was later overturned.

Apple should not be able to get away with anticompetiive behavior that other companies of similar market power, size, dominance, etc. (criteria can vary) can't get away with.
 
Reality is looking at the good and bad, not focusing on the bad. Otherwise if you only focus on the negatives, you might as well push to have Apple shut down.
Well this legislation is nothing but bad, imo. All legislation is not great, I’m sure I can dig up some examples in the good old US of A.
1980 may not be going back far enough. I am sure some people were using their Apple I, Apple II, Apple II+ and Apple III computers for "unsavory" and illegal activities.

Thanks for reminding people how rotten companies like Apple can be for society. Whether it be from use of their computers, smartphones, web browsers or other products, Apple has been a major force in corrupting societies around the world for decades. They really do need to be shut down! /s
Yep, let’s take it a step further and shut down the banks, tech companies, electric companies. Let’s live like a caveman. /s
There was a choice of desktop operating systems in the 1990s. Are you saying that governments were wrong to go after Microsoft for trying to put restrictions on things like which browsers were or weren't allowed to be sold with Windows?
Yes, I have mixed feelings about this except Microsoft made up the rules jn the fly. Apple has been tweaking the App Store, which has been operating more or less unchanged since the beginning .

Microsoft didn't even prevent end users from installing alternative browsers yet governments came down on them and a U.S. District Court judge even ruled to have Microsoft split into two companies, although that was later overturned.
The government doesn’t win them all. Thankfully.
Apple should not be able to get away with anticompetiive behavior that other companies of similar market power, size, dominance, etc. (criteria can vary) can't get away with.
Nowhere have they been convicted of anticompetitive behavior with the App Store or proprietary products.
 
Apple has been tweaking the App Store, which has been operating more or less unchanged since the beginning .
It hasn't. What used to be a level playing for app discovery that features the most relevant search results first, is now littered with paid ads.
except Microsoft made up the rules jn the fly
So does Apple (in fact, they may be doing it more evilly than Microsoft ever did):

👉 https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/11/apple-updates-app-store-review-guidelines/

Do video streaming services get native apps? Yes they do. Do they (e.g. Netflix or Disney) have to submit for review every individual movie/series title to Apple for review? No. Is this a security measure, to protect against malware? No, the content is just streamed to the device. And when Netflix can stream depictions of drug use, sexual intercourse, war and homicides via their App (again, without Apple reviewing and approving their content), it's not a credible measure to protect children either.

Making (up, on the fly) such fine-grained a distinction between types of apps doesn't follow any rhyme or reason. Except to serve its intended purpose: Stifling the competition, when Apple just released their own gaming subscription service.
 
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It hasn't. What used to be a level playing for app discovery that features the most relevant search results first, is now littered with paid ads.
I repeat, the App Store virtually operates the way it did years ago. Virtually doesn’t mean identically and nothing stays the same.
So does Apple (in fact, they may be doing it more evilly than Microsoft ever did):

👉 https://www.macrumors.com/2020/09/11/apple-updates-app-store-review-guidelines/
Yes, changes have to be made as everything changes with time.
Do video streaming services get native apps? Yes they do. Do they (e.g. Netflix or Disney) have to submit for review every individual movie/series title to Apple for review? No. Is this a security measure, to protect against malware? No, the content is just streamed to the device. And when Netflix can stream depictions of drug use, sexual intercourse, war and homicides via their App (again, without Apple reviewing and approving their content), it's not a credible measure to protect children either.
What’s the point? that apple had to adapt with the times? You’re only making the case that things change. And you’re Netflix example is just some hyperbole for hyperboles sake.
Making (up, on the fly) such fine-grained a distinction between types of apps doesn't follow any rhyme or reason.
It does when businesses change over the course of time.
Except to serve its intended purpose: Stifling the competition, when Apple just released their own gaming subscription service.
Except to change with the times.
 
There was a choice of desktop operating systems in the 1990s. Are you saying that governments were wrong to go after Microsoft for trying to put restrictions on things like which browsers were or weren't allowed to be sold with Windows?
Absolutely. None of the govt's business.

Apple should not be able to get away with anticompetiive behavior that other companies of similar market power, size, dominance, etc. (criteria can vary) can't get away with.
Why not?
 
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It's a theoretical choice - when in reality no one chooses their smartphone OS based on that as their first or only criterion.
I do. Others I know do as well. Android is actually much better than iOS in many ways. But I choose it due to it being locked down.
 
That's like complaining:

"The only way I can get one particular product in town is to buy it from Walmart, cause they stock it exclusively. I have no choice" 😭

But also...

"Why should everyone in town being forced to buy everything from Target be a problem - as long as we can trust Target's merchandise quality review process? (And also, you can move away to Canada, if you don't like it)" 🤷‍♀️
That is what people are complaining about in this thread! The ONLY place to get iOS apps is on Apple's store.

Yet, if I want a mobile Microsoft Outlook, I can use Android instead of an iPhone....solution solved. JUST like if I got a different product vs a Walmart exclusive.
 
There was a choice of desktop operating systems in the 1990s. Are you saying that governments were wrong to go after Microsoft for trying to put restrictions on things like which browsers were or weren't allowed to be sold with Windows? Microsoft didn't even prevent end users from installing alternative browsers yet governments came down on them and a U.S. District Court judge even ruled to have Microsoft split into two companies, although that was later overturned.

Apple should not be able to get away with anticompetiive behavior that other companies of similar market power, size, dominance, etc. (criteria can vary) can't get away with.
Please read what actively happened. They pressured Netscape devs to stop working on the browser. They prevented OEMs from bundling other things than their software, they also made it intentionally difficult for Sun Java code to be modified/changed (it wasn't just Netscape, Sun was involved in it too).

Here is a link if you need a refresher. A lot more complicated than "WAAAA Microsoft has a popular OS and bundled browser so they got in trouble!!!!" - https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-fact#iva

Some highlights.

Microsoft's first response to the threat posed by Navigator was an effort to persuade Netscape to structure its business such that the company would not distribute platform- level browsing software for Windows.

Decision-makers at Microsoft worried that simply developing its own attractive browser product, pricing it at zero, and promoting it vigorously would not divert enough browser usage from Navigator to neutralize it as a platform. They believed that a comparable browser product offered at no charge would still not be compelling enough to consumers to detract substantially from Navigator's existing share of browser usage. This belief was due, at least in part, to the fact that Navigator already enjoyed a very large installed base and had become nearly synonymous with the Web in the public's consciousness. If Microsoft was going to raise Internet Explorer's share of browser usage and lower Navigator's share, executives at Microsoft believed they needed to constrict Netscape's access to the distribution channels that led most efficiently to browser usage.

Microsoft easily could have implemented Sun's native method along with its own in its developer tools and its JVM, thereby allowing Java developers to choose between speed and portability; however, it elected instead to implement only the Microsoft methods. The result was that if a Java developer used the Sun method for making native calls, his application would not run on Microsoft's version of the Windows JVM, and if he used Microsoft's native methods, his application would not run on any JVM other than Microsoft's version. Far from being the unintended consequence of an attempt to help Java developers more easily develop high- performing applications, incompatibility was the intended result of Microsoft's efforts. In fact, Microsoft would subsequently threaten to use the same tactic against Apple's QuickTime. Microsoft continued to refuse to implement Sun's native method until November 1998, when a court ordered it to do so. It then took Microsoft only a few weeks to implement Sun's native method in its developer tools and JVM.
 
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Yes, changes have to be made as everything changes with time.
Except to change with the times.
that apple had to adapt with the times?
It does when businesses change over the course of time.
Rendering gaming content in a datacenter and streaming it to handheld devices actually was and is quite innovative.
A real change over time that this became possible.

👉 There was nothing forcing Apple to "have to" make up this rule and treat game streamers any differently than other streaming apps. They just ruthlessly decided to make up this finely tailored rule to neuter innovation and competing services.

Now, I can, kind of, "get" the argument that Apple is and should be free do whatever they please with their platform (even though I in many ways disagree with it), even so far as shutting out unwanted competition on a whim - cause hey, it's their platform.

What I can't comprehend is how someone can champion Apple as innovators and "encouraging innovation". And deny that stripping them of a little of their gatekeeping power would have no benefits whatsoever to consumers and other honest businesses.

What they did was a big "**** you!" to innovation.
They have been encouraging innovation since the beginning
Making innovative ways of delivering gaming content financially unviable is not encouraging innovation.

It's opposing innovation.
 
I do. Others I know do as well.
So let's fast-forward 2 years, Apple is complying with the regulation and allows sideloading.
With a simple "trust other developers" switch in settings.

I take it you're going to switch to Android soon then?

I mean, if the one distinguishing feature of the iOS platform was taken away from you by law, there's nothing holding you back, is there? Andyou said it yourself: Android's better in so many ways.
 
Rendering gaming content in a datacenter and streaming it to handheld devices actually was and is quite innovative.
A real change over time that this became possible.

👉 There was nothing forcing Apple to "have to" make up this rule and treat game streamers any differently than other streaming apps. They just ruthlessly decided to make up this finely tailored rule to neuter innovation and competing services.

Now, I can, kind of, "get" the argument that Apple is and should be free do whatever they please with their platform (even though I in many ways disagree with it), even so far as shutting out unwanted competition on a whim - cause hey, it's their platform.

What I can't comprehend is how someone can champion Apple as innovators and "encouraging innovation". And deny that stripping them of a little of their gatekeeping power would have no benefits whatsoever to consumers and other honest businesses.

What they did was a big "**** you!" to innovation.

Making innovative ways of delivering gaming content financially unviable is not encouraging innovation.

It's opposing innovation.
The App Store is apples ip. They built it and devs came to enroll by the boatload. Apple is fully justified with their rules, which haven’t changed much from the beginning. If you want innovation support a platform that offers innovation to your liking. Go android:
 
So let's fast-forward 2 years, Apple is complying with the regulation and allows sideloading.
With a simple "trust other developers" switch in settings.

I take it you're going to switch to Android soon then?

I mean, if the one distinguishing feature of the iOS platform was taken away from you by law, there's nothing holding you back, is there? Andyou said it yourself: Android's better in so many ways.
Yes I will. Or I will stay on an older iOS version until I can no longer do so.
 
Well this legislation is nothing but bad, imo. All legislation is not great, I’m sure I can dig up some examples in the good old US of A.

Yep, let’s take it a step further and shut down the banks, tech companies, electric companies. Let’s live like a caveman. /s

Yes, you've made your position known. My point was that you were focusing on the potential negatives which is why I responded as I did pointing out that if one wants to focus on the negatives, Apple's products have been corrupting societies for decades.



Yes, I have mixed feelings about this except Microsoft made up the rules jn the fly. Apple has been tweaking the App Store, which has been operating more or less unchanged since the beginning .

Microsoft didn't make up "rules" on the fly any more than Apple has made up "rules" of their own.



The government doesn’t win them all. Thankfully.

No, they don't and these types of cases can often end up in a compromise (settled, modified on appeal, etc.).



Nowhere have they been convicted of anticompetitive behavior with the App Store or proprietary products.

Maybe not but that doesn't mean it won't happen or Apple hasn't/won't change their behavior to avoid lawsuits, fines and/or convictions.
 
Absolutely. None of the govt's business.

Why not?

Companies with significant market influence shouldn’t be able to get away anticompetitive behavior that violates antitrust laws and regulations.

When a company like Apple has a dominant position in a market, they can unfairly use that market power to block competition, stifle innovation, etc. Antitrust laws and regulations (which can vary by country) are meant to try to prevent that.
 
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Please read what actively happened. They pressured Netscape devs to stop working on the browser. They prevented OEMs from bundling other things than their software, they also made it intentionally difficult for Sun Java code to be modified/changed (it wasn't just Netscape, Sun was involved in it too).

Here is a link if you need a refresher. A lot more complicated than "WAAAA Microsoft has a popular OS and bundled browser so they got in trouble!!!!" - https://www.justice.gov/atr/us-v-microsoft-courts-findings-fact#iva

Some highlights.

Microsoft's first response to the threat posed by Navigator was an effort to persuade Netscape to structure its business such that the company would not distribute platform- level browsing software for Windows.

Decision-makers at Microsoft worried that simply developing its own attractive browser product, pricing it at zero, and promoting it vigorously would not divert enough browser usage from Navigator to neutralize it as a platform. They believed that a comparable browser product offered at no charge would still not be compelling enough to consumers to detract substantially from Navigator's existing share of browser usage. This belief was due, at least in part, to the fact that Navigator already enjoyed a very large installed base and had become nearly synonymous with the Web in the public's consciousness. If Microsoft was going to raise Internet Explorer's share of browser usage and lower Navigator's share, executives at Microsoft believed they needed to constrict Netscape's access to the distribution channels that led most efficiently to browser usage.

Microsoft easily could have implemented Sun's native method along with its own in its developer tools and its JVM, thereby allowing Java developers to choose between speed and portability; however, it elected instead to implement only the Microsoft methods. The result was that if a Java developer used the Sun method for making native calls, his application would not run on Microsoft's version of the Windows JVM, and if he used Microsoft's native methods, his application would not run on any JVM other than Microsoft's version. Far from being the unintended consequence of an attempt to help Java developers more easily develop high- performing applications, incompatibility was the intended result of Microsoft's efforts. In fact, Microsoft would subsequently threaten to use the same tactic against Apple's QuickTime. Microsoft continued to refuse to implement Sun's native method until November 1998, when a court ordered it to do so. It then took Microsoft only a few weeks to implement Sun's native method in its developer tools and JVM.

If you want to treat it like that, Apple "pressures" app developers to use Apple's App Store...Apple "pressures" browser companies to use the Webkit browser engine...Apple "pressures" retailers to only sell iPhones witbout alternative app stores, browser engines....etc.

At least with Microsoft, end users were still able to install alternative browsers if they chose to. In that sense, Apple is more restrictive and anticompetitive with iOS than Microsoft was with Windows.
 
Yes, you've made your position known. My point was that you were focusing on the potential negatives which is why I responded as I did pointing out that if one wants to focus on the negatives, Apple's products have been corrupting societies for decades.
If we're being candid here, everybody has made their position known - ad-nauseum. We just all go around in the same circles as if the person who has the last word will guide the universe into that frame of mind.
Microsoft didn't make up "rules" on the fly any more than Apple has made up "rules" of their own.
Apples rules have basically been in place since 2008. I say basically because Apple has tweaked them in the 14 years the app store has been in existence.
No, they don't and these types of cases can often end up in a compromise (settled, modified on appeal, etc.).
Yes, settled, compromised, modified on appeal or dismissed.
Maybe not but that doesn't mean it won't happen or Apple hasn't/won't change their behavior to avoid lawsuits, fines and/or convictions.
I wish I were prescient, but I'm not. We don't know what will happen in the future.
 
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Companies with significant market influence shouldn’t be able to get away anticompetitive behavior that violates antitrust laws and regulations.

When a company like Apple has a dominant position in a market, they can unfairly use that market power to block competition, stifle innovation, etc. Antitrust laws and regulations (which can vary by country) are meant to try to prevent that.
Yeah, screw all that.
 
So let's fast-forward 2 years, Apple is complying with the regulation and allows sideloading.
With a simple "trust other developers" switch in settings.

I take it you're going to switch to Android soon then?

I mean, if the one distinguishing feature of the iOS platform was taken away from you by law, there's nothing holding you back, is there? Andyou said it yourself: Android's better in so many ways.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the EU requires some people to use Android and other things, just to make things "equitable and fair". After all, why should anyone be allowed to to choose what they want to buy if it means some companies lose out?
 
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