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ipponrg

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2008
2,309
2,087
Well - perhaps just accept that "it is"?



I don't even use a laptop anymore, so no I don't have a personal example, but I completely recognize that it's a hassle for many and their views on it are totally understandable and valid.
[doublepost=1485029136][/doublepost]

The specific nickel & diming I sort of have in mind is the purposeful price anchoring on the low end with specs that are past being acceptable (the iPhone stuck @ 16gb forever was an example, but it's been done on most all types of upgrades for the past few years especially).

On the new laptop side, this entire experience of removing every nicety or extra in the box, while raising prices and not throwing in some adapters just sucks. Then they say "we've temporarily lowered adapter prices, so no issue!"

Well - How about including some in the box and always having those lower adapter (still high) prices to ease this USB-C transition?

If they've "always done it", maybe so, but it feels like they are doing it more and in either case it's not a defense of continuing to do it, especially from a CEO so obsessed with "Customer Sat".

This is Bean Counter Tim's MO - loads of SKU's and ways to push accessory sales.

The entire company has become about raising ASP's and keeping margins high, irrespective of most anything else.
It's just frustrating.

I agree that it's definitely feeling much more granular now. I am also disappointed that they didn't include a USB-C to USB-A adapter out of the box.

I guarantee you though that if/when a company comes out with a good integration native OS with unix integration, I + many other devs/engrs would jump off the Mac ship easy. It's hard to deny that MacOS (with unix backing) is pretty solid in work/business environments. Microsoft has already started this path, but until they decouple from the registry and all the other Windows nuances, people such as myself will probably continue to support Apple.
 
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turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,268
39,777
I agree that it's definitely feeling much more granular now. I am also disappointed that they didn't include a USB-C to USB-A adapter out of the box.

I guarantee you though that if/when a company comes out with a good integration native OS with unix integration, I + many other devs/engrs would jump off the Mac ship easy. It's hard to deny that MacOS (with unix backing) is pretty solid in work/business environments. Microsoft has already started this path, but until they decouple from the registry and all the other Windows nuances, people such as myself will probably continue to support Apple.


Totally agree - I think we all love macOS which makes this so much more frustrating.

I'd really rather Apple just go back to licensing macOS for third party pro hardware if this is the tack they are going to take.

Then they could just fulfill Tim's dream of change to "iOS Inc."
 
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aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
The entire company has become about raising ASP's and keeping margins high, irrespective of most anything else.
It's just frustrating.
You'd almost think he was the CEO of a publicly traded company whose stock lives and dies by the product margins... or something. It's a good thing we live in a world where he isn't held accountable by AAPL stockholders (or the board) and can just throw in all sorts of crap in the box to make folks happy (because apparently buying some of the best-engineered products on the market is pointless if they don't come with cloths to wipe the screen down anymore).
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,268
39,777
You'd almost think he was the CEO of a publicly traded company whose stock lives and dies by the product margins... or something. It's a good thing we live in a world where he isn't held accountable by AAPL stockholders (and the board).

There are many ways to accomplish great returns for investors, and long term considerations should come into play.

Keep treating people like this and the end will come at some point..
 
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aevan

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2015
4,533
7,228
Serbia
Nobody "owes you reasons for their opinions"
Can we just be nice and not argumentative please?

You don't "owe" me anything. Let me remind you that you asked me a question - directly. You asked me if it has occured to me that issues that don't affect me do apply to others. I anwered that it has occured to me, but stated that in this instance this doesn't seem to be the case. Then I asked you to give me an example proving otherwise. You responded with, I'm paraphrasing: why don't you just accept it as I say it.

So, I asked you again to give me an example where this is an issue. You don't owe it to me. But if you want me to accept your reasoning, I will need more than "it just is".

If you do not provide an example, respectfully, I will continue believing what I do now: it's not really an issue for anyone - at least in the case of USB-A devices. I accept that people have different needs and issues and still stand by what I said: this is not an issue.

If you don't want to elaborate further, we'll leave it at that.
 
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aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
There are many ways to accomplish great returns for investors, and long term considerations should come into play.

Keep treating people like this and the end will come at some point..
Personally, I think the end coming for certain customers is long overdue, and it's not a bad thing.
 

aevan

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2015
4,533
7,228
Serbia
let's do that

Fine.

But I am honestly sorry to hear that - I was hoping you'd give me an example, I really was. Perhaps I was missing something. I'm not pushing any agenda here, you know. I just think it's funny to get annoyed over a few new cables, but hey, maybe there is some valid reason. Some special usage case? Some specific situation where it is really a problem? I like reading about this stuff.

Sadly, it turns out you just felt the need to tell me that I should accept that this is a real life problem without giving me any reason for it.
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,268
39,777
Sadly, it turns out you just felt the need to tell me that I should accept that this is a real life problem without giving me any reason for it.

I am just trying to encourage common courtesy.

Nobody has to prove anything to anyone, can we just accept different situations lead to different frustrations?
Everything is nicer here when we all are simply courteous.

I'm sorry we aren't getting on well. I think there's a touch of language/international barrier as I've always been slightly put off by your tone. To me you just feel very aggressive in your opinions so often.

I really do apologize if I'm misreading that.
In any case - Have a great day. Cheers
 
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aevan

macrumors 601
Feb 5, 2015
4,533
7,228
Serbia
I shouldn't have to tell you - It's just common courtesy.

Nobody has to prove anything to anyone, can we just accept different situations lead to different frustrations?
Everything is nicer here when we all are simply courteous.

Oh, I do accept that people get frustrated. But people can get frustrated for various reasons - over a lot of things. Some people get frustrated over weather, some over work. Some people get frustrated over other people, sometimes for reasons that are not accepted in a moden society. We don't have to respect every frustration, do we? We criticize people who get frustrated with different cultures or minority rights, for example. I'm not comparing this situation to that, but it's a good example to show that we don't have to just accept other people's frustrations as a reason to criticize something.

In discussions such as these, I believe, it's good to offer different arguments, try to discuss different opinions. I don't consider it uncourteous. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm just claiming that certain issue is nonexistent. I'm open to being proven otherwise. I believe we're discussing if Apple made a good or wrong choice about not putting USB-A ports on a MacBook and in this case the fact that some people get frustrated doesn't say much unless we try to explain this frustration.

If you're just asking me to accept the fact that the frustration exists - I do accept it. But that doesn't tell us anything whether Apple made a good or bad choice, does it? As I said, people get frustrated over a lot of things.

Don't you agree?
 

mac_in_tosh

macrumors 6502a
Nov 6, 2016
597
6,338
Earth
And they are not ignoring Macs. Apple can't be blamed for stagnating CPU landscape or complicated GPU situation.

Can you explain this? I'm not arguing with the statements, and I've seen similar ones here, but am genuinely curious as to what you mean, given that other companies seem to update their machines on a much more frequent basis (compared to 2 and 3 years).
[doublepost=1485038037][/doublepost]
I love the values of the company—privacy, worker rights, environment responsibility, etc.

Worker rights? You mean like Foxconn providing nets outside the workers' dorms?
 

Mildredop

macrumors 68020
Oct 14, 2013
2,478
1,510
The lack of USB-A is the most easily fixed issue this machine has. Buy some tiny $5 adapters and leave one on the end of each cable you need one for. Fixed. Really not the big issue people are making of it in any practical way.
On the reasons in my previous post.


With what, and on what basis, if any?
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,495
19,632
Can you explain this? I'm not arguing with the statements, and I've seen similar ones here, but am genuinely curious as to what you mean, given that other companies seem to update their machines on a much more frequent basis (compared to 2 and 3 years).

I will give you a short summary of my post here, and then proceed to discuss it in detail below. The detailed explanation will be humongous. Short summary: I do not agree that Apple has in any form neglected or abandoned the Mac (aside the Mac Mini)! The Macs see less updates now, but this has simply to with the fact that the industry itself updates the CPUs/GPUs less frequently. And the configurations have gotten more complicated: you have expensive higher-end CPUs (which Apple uses) which don't get that many updates and often suffer from poor yields and other issues, but you also have cheaper low-end CPUs (of the type that Dell/Microsoft uses) which are available earlier. Don't fall for the marketing hype, look what you actually get. I remember the outrage when Dell has released the Kaby Lake CPU and everyone was criticising Apple for still using Skylake — but very few people noticed that the only available Kaby Lake at the time was the low-end 15W chip while Apple were using high-end 28W chips...

Now to more detail (to whom is interested in this stuff):

Take the 15" MacBook Pro. In October 2013, it received the Haswell CPU, and next year, in July 2014, got a slight CPU frequency bump. Then, in may 2015 it got a GPU upgrade (the M370X), while the CPU remained unchanged. Finally, in November 2016 we have a new TB model with Skylake CPUs and new Polaris GPUs. On paper, we have a computer that had basically the same CPU for 3 years, without any upgrades, and the same GPU for over a hear, without any upgrades. Which looks terrible.

Until we look at the actual market.

The Haswell CPUs used in the previous iteration of the MBP are high-end chips which feature the fastest Intel's integrated GPU (at that time) and 128MB of L4 cache. This CPU was launched in June 2013, so basically it was very new when Apple adopted it. Fast forward to 2014. The only change in Intel's CPU lineup are 'new' models which are basically fe Mhz faster — the MBP gets these updates immediately (one months after they are released). GPU is a bit more complicated: the Nvidia's 850M was a prime candidate for the MBP and drivers for it were found in OS X. Which means that they have actually planned to use Nvidia's GPUs. However, something must have happened that ruined the deal. Maybe they coil't reach an agreement suitable for both parties, maybe Nvidia was not able or willing to supply as many GPUs as Apple needed (don't forget that Apple ships more of the same laptop configuration than any other manufacturer, so they need insane numbers of components!) — we might never know. At any rate, the MBP would never see Maxwell.

What happens then? Apple updates the GPU the first chance they get, which is in May 2015. Because Maxwell is not available for them, they have to do with a custom energy-optimised chip from AMD, which is a compromise at best. At that time, no better CPU than what MBP already has is available. Note that the 13" get the Broadwell upgrade, which was available. The Broadwell CPUs with high-end GPUs, which are suitable for the 15" model get released in June 2015, later than expected, but the chip itself is essentially vapourware. I am not aware of a single laptop shipping with these. No idea whether its because Intel couldn't make sufficient quantities or because no-one was interesting. At any rate, with Skylake scheduled to be released just few months after, nobody really cares much for Broadwell anyway.

And here things get interesting. The Skylake CPUs that are currently in the 2016 model were actually released in September 2015. But of course, these chips were not a suitable replacement for the venerable Haswell chips in the MBP, because they lacked the high-end Iris Pro graphics. The corresponding chips were then launched in Q1 2016 — but their actual availability seems a mystery. Again, I am not aware of any laptops really using those chips. And there is honestly no reason why Apple would not use them — if they could. So my guess is that Intel simply was not able to make them in bulk. We also know that Intel started winding down their Iris Pro initiative at the same time, again, we can try to guess as to why, but its not really relevant at this point. We just have to assume that the Iris Pro was not available to Apple for some reason.

So, what could Apple do in this situation? They could update to Skylake — and essentially downgrade the graphics, or they could wait. What they did is release a new MBP the exact moment they had access to a faster GPU generation — in fact, they got it before anyone else on the market (my guess is that Apple simply bought up the entire supply of the higher-quality Polaris 11 chips). They ditched the fast iGPU, but made the dGPU mandatory again. And again, they did it at the first moment when the hardware to do so was available.

I am sorry for such a long post, but I thought that in order to bring my point over, some level of detail was necessary. All in all, I believe that if one makes the attempt to look at what was available at the market at any given point, it becomes very clear that Apple was trying very hard to keep the components in its laptop line up to date — as much as it made sense.

The same is also true for the desktop line (in a fashion). The iMac has pretty much been kept up to date. And I fully expect it to get new Kaby Lake CPUs + updated Polaris 10 in spring. The Mac Pro could have been upgraded earlier, but again, we are talking about server tech here, which often lags behind a bit. I am more then sure that there will be a new Mac Pro with Vega+Broadwell (or even Skylake, if they get released by then) CPUs. The Mac Mini is in a very sad state, yes, and its the only machine where I agree that it seems to be abandoned.
 

raqball

macrumors 68020
Sep 11, 2016
2,323
9,573
I am just trying to encourage common courtesy.

Nobody has to prove anything to anyone, can we just accept different situations lead to different frustrations?
Everything is nicer here when we all are simply courteous.

I'm sorry we aren't getting on well. I think there's a touch of language/international barrier as I've always been slightly put off by your tone. To me you just feel very aggressive in your opinions so often.

I'm just tapped out man. Sorry for saying anything

Don't let them put you down, discredit you or silence you..... It's what they want and what they do to everyone who does not share their point of view..

The new machines are okay but they are not the greatest thing since microwave popcorn..

I like hearing all sides from rational posters so by all mean please do keep sharing your opinion..
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
It may not be as good, or the future, but it's still massively widely used and is often the old one available for certain products. Many users are bound to come across it and it's helpful to be able to just connect it and move on with life.

And as Queen6 has expressed, there seems to be a lot of issues still with USB-C/TB3.

The situation will improve, equally it will take time; USB C is far more complex than the preceding standards one of the reasons why pass through charging is still limited to a very few dongles. Straight through cables with differing heads present no issue, however dongles with logic onboard are the real potential for issue as they add another layer of complexity.

Personally I am hoping that the uptake will accelerate, equally people, businesses, corporates are simply not going to USB C overnight, especially as most are served adequately by USB A 3.0 , it will come in time, how long is entirely another matter.

Q-6
[doublepost=1485045638][/doublepost]
It's perfectly valid to be really irritated about needing a mess of dongles to do what required none before. There are lots of different usage situations where it might be more/less annoying.

Well that`s of the crux of argument as some find it impossible to put themselves in another'`s position; for me frequently I do not control the computing environment, as stated outside forums such as this the uptake of USB C is limited in the extreme. Another aspect that some skip is I have owned and used a 2015 rMB for over 20 months so have first hand experience of such situations, with USB C not being the great panacea some assume it to be.

Will the situation get better? Yes, will it take time? Yes, how long? a good few years; depending personal situation USB C can be a positive factor or a negative factor and that is a fact.


Q-6
 

turbineseaplane

macrumors P6
Mar 19, 2008
17,268
39,777
@Queen6

Very true.
This whole thing reminds me of a more widely spread (and actually more complex) version of the Thunderbolt situation.

I'm just not that interested in having something as useful and ubiquitous as USB get so messed with and "pushed forward"*** when the ecosystem is so bare yet, and out in the wild/workplaces you will be encountering mostly old style USB stuff for a very long time.

I really think it would have been ok/good for Apple to do half measure and include 1 or 2 standard old style USB ports on one side of the 15" pros. People seem to forget all the ways/situations laptops get used and dragged around into and how frequently you'll be away from your bag or office, etc and might need to pop in a thumb drive (99% of which will be standard old USB for a long while), etc and you won't be near any dongles.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
Don't let them put you down, discredit you or silence you..... It's what they want and what they do to everyone who does not share their point of view..

The new machines are okay but they are not the greatest thing since microwave popcorn..

I like hearing all sides from rational posters so by all mean please do keep sharing your opinion..

Very much of the same opinion, there is now a hardcore group on the forum who literally jump on anything negative regarding the 2016 MBP, with it literally shutting down intelligent discussion unless it`s heavily biased towards Apple's new hardware, their motivations?

The 2016 MBP is a very polarising product, therefore one should not be surprised that opinions differ. People are fully entitled here to those opinions without being harassed and bombarded, yet that is exactly what happens, with literally post after post attempting to refute and deny any issue, demanding example, demanding reason etc.

I try to look at the pro's & con's of all my hardware; this rMB is not perfect, Surface Book is not perfect, nor are the other multiple Retina Mac's & PC's I own and use professionally. All portables are compromised by nature. Why would an individual be happy with choices from Apple, Microsoft, Lenovo etc. that do not work for them? Common sense dictates they won't be, equally they are fully entitled to their opinion and should be allowed to voice it, without this current "wall" of accusatory text, as at the end of the day "it's their opinion" nothing more nothing thing less, be it positive or negative.

I also like to hear real world experience of hardware from users, be it positive or negative as is helps with the purchasing decision, as specs never tell the full story, only hands on usage by balanced users reveal this.

Q-6
 
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SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
4,506
4,742
Land of Smiles
The situation will improve, equally it will take time; USB C is far more complex than the preceding standards one of the reasons why pass through charging is still limited to a very few dongles. Straight through cables with differing heads present no issue, however dongles with logic onboard are the real potential for issue as they add another layer of complexity.

Personally I am hoping that the uptake will accelerate, equally people, businesses, corporates are simply not going to USB C overnight, especially as most are served adequately by USB A 3.0 , it will come in time, how long is entirely another matter.

Well that`s of the crux of argument as some find it impossible to put themselves in another'`s position; for me frequently I do not control the computing environment, as stated outside forums such as this the uptake of USB C is limited in the extreme. Another aspect that some skip is I have owned and used a 2015 rMB for over 20 months so have first hand experience of such situations, with USB C not being the great panacea some assume it to be.

Will the situation get better? Yes, will it take time? Yes, how long? a good few years; depending personal situation USB C can be a positive factor or a negative factor and that is a fact.

Q-6

Like yourself I have had a rMB for over 18 months and through charging with dongles is problematic when you have multiple devices

I still understand that some more simple straight through cables with differing heads have problems. So much so that someone on Amazon is on a crusade to stop the sale of certain brands or clones etc.

Probably the very ones many here say USB-C is no problem get a $5 cable and stop moaning, not good advice IMO

Even the old habits of swapping and exchanging USB cables between devices is not so simple there are already several cases where OEM USB-C cables are only suitable for their own products and should not be used on others due to potential fire risks.

Strangely I noticed the Apple triple port dongle runs a lot warmer than the Samsung one and I would also like to try the Dell one Lisa Grade often shows in her reviews

It will improve eventually but probably like yourself I already have to carry multiple dongles for different products along with adapters and varying cables. My once single cable bag for my Tumi backpack now has a sister for USB-C. (I find the little free flight goodies bag are excellent for this, with or without the socks :) )
 
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