Amazing how Apple has figured it out yet all the other manufacturers, who offer expandable desktop systems, haven't.
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MP 7,1 New MP - it's not for you. So who is it for?
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That's because "the best" high end systems tend to attract the worst abusers. AKA "Premium Cheapskates." Nobody shows off a Dell in their living room, and the Alienware stuff is warrantied to limit exposure and priced to compensate for exposure during the warranty.
Can you provide supporting evidence for these statements?
I used to cry every time I said this, but as I learned during many deployments of run of the mill and mid-range PCs most users don't upgrade individual parts or components. There have been times when a user is savvy enough to upgrade the RAM or replace a HDD, but most will use and abuse their machines until they're dead of EOL'd.
That includes the monitor.
The iMac is easy as nutz to deploy in that regard, and as far as most Pros and niche users (who work on the machine not tinker) are concerned the iMac's screen is just tolerable enough to get it, and buy a high-spec'd reference monitor to sit next to it.
Some have opted for the MacMini depending.
The problem is they haven't either.
Those towers are toasters. They're like the USB-Lightning cables or earbuds. Throwaways.
Dell and HP make their $$$ on vast deployments 1000+ of base to mid range systems and long term contracts. A department, in a university with 15k students (mid sized), may need 80-100 Dell Optiplex machines. Average cost per box?
$1100 including monitor.
The university as a whole, who has a contract with Dell: 3500 machines give or take. $4.5million.
When the English 101 prof spills coffee in the CPU, it goes in the dumpster.
I was being sarcastic with my statement as I do not buy into the explanation given.
Sorry about that. Although I had a feeling we agreed on some level. Apple has been out of that market since the days of the Mac clone and have done well. There's no need for them to step back into it.
And with their culture, they'd do a rather poor job at it.
They could surprise us, but my money is them sticking to what they do exceptionally well at.
Yes I think you're spot on. I don't need the workstation class of the nMP, the massive RAM ceiling or the Afterburner card. I need a quiet Mac that burns through Photoshop and single threaded applications, with a couple of free slots for GPUs and storage. That's it.
Which is sell phone. Without the iPhone I believe Apple would be a fraction of what it is today.
None that you will accept. My cousin's girlfriend is an expert in warranty and support pricing, although her specialty is in consumer appliances, not computers. I could write pages on all the stuff she opened our eyes about (really, it was like going from black & white to technicolor in the Wizard of Oz), and while every brand has their share of warranty abuse going on, those seen as "premium" get the worst of it, and the business/marketing gyrations they go through in order to "stiffarm" the "Premium Cheapskates" can look very odd if you don't know what is going on.
Actually, one of the new i10 series would be perfect. It addresses 256Gb of ram and has 40+ PCIe lanes (albeit at 3.0 speed).
Problem is that that series isn't price competitive wrt Ryzen/Threadripper.
The fact is that a $130,000 HP Z8 G4 has none of these problems, or lockout features, that you claim Apple will have.
The worst "warranty abusers" as you claim in PCs are the low end. They are the grandmothers who spend $500 on a computer, netting the company $10 in margin, then tie up support for hours when they get a virus from installing toolbars.
Enterprise systems have much higher margins and attract much more competent people who merely want to get their work done. Part of the extra cost is better support and part is that they're built with features that make support easier.
Cheapskates don't go buying a Dell Optiplex because they do exactly what people on this forum are doing and say that the Optiplex costs 20% more than a pile of parts and is therefore a ripoff.
If you ever deal with HP, Dell, and Lenovo enterprise support, they have no problem trusting your evaluation of the problem and sending parts out. You literally call them up, rarely wait on hold, say the front panel says fault code X1234, DIMM 4 excess soft errors, the agent says fine, we'll overnight a new DIMM or two, make sure the problem is fixed and send us the parts back. All done in 5 minutes, versus all this business about "bad ram" causing crashes and swapping memory around and multi-hour tests.
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I think you just made my point. It isn't that the system is expensive, it is that it is seen by ordinary consumers as "premium". Apple is, HP isn't (at least these days). The warranty expert's advice for a premium brand would be to bifurcate the line, so that the machines aimed towards professionals/enterprise are separated by branding from those aimed towards consumers/enthusiasts. Such as Dell/Alienware. But I don't think Apple can do that.
Ah, but they would probably try to figure out how to at least make it look like they had one if it were an Alienware Optiplex.
I assume you mean the upcoming Comet Lake? The i9 10900K is rumored for Q2 2020. Best available right now would be i9-9900K or i9-9900KF depending on implementation (128GB RAM).
While I know people like ******** on Youtubers, there's a very good reason to want 8K cameras in all sorts of video pipelines, and Youtube is a good example. Most of the time you're shooting tight deadlines, and can't set up many different camera setups or angles. Having an 8K camera allows you to synthesize multiple camera shots in post, punch in if you decide you need to focus on something else in the frame, etc. It's certainly not something you need—and the pros like MKBHD who were seeded reviews are probably the most visible part of the handful of professional Youtubers who can afford these machines (most people aren't making thousands a month to justify this) but there's still an obvious benefit.
And really, the whole sense of "need" is generally hyperbolic.
I can do my job on an iMac. It's just not as fast or efficient, but you save a boatload of money. Basically all professional gear is the embodiment of the 80/20 rule—you can get something almost as good for much less, but getting that extra benefit or features will cost you. Pros are the people for whom that cost benefit analysis is weighted by actually making money with said gear.
The author's MP 6,1 is just like mine before its internal upgrade; e.g., 4-core, D300, and 64GB of RAM. About 2 months ago, I upgraded my MP to 10-core and with Samsung 2TB SSD. The speed for my photography processing is doubled with the new configuration.
I cancelled my Mac Pro order today after my main client told me they were moving to PCs. That was one pretty major reason to get it, to stay 100% compatible with that client.
like you I’m doing big thinking to work out if this machine is right for me. Redshift / octane benchmarks will help the decision whenever that does happen.
This may be an unintended consequence of Apple's new MP market position strategy. It might be true that there is a higher margin for desktops targeting media professionals. But most mid-size and larger companies want to cut costs. When these companies switch to MS platform, the downstream folks will follow along.
Several client offices have moved to iMac, iMac Pro and even Mac Mini in the last 3-6 months. Nearly all are waiting until around NAB to place an order and want to see third party manufacturers and vendors embrace. If preorder in November that may have changed things.
I personally picked up a fairly loaded MBP16,1 to replace an aging MBP, good release timing I guess. It’s faster at most “stuff” than nearly all the standard iMac configs. Equal or comes really close to many iMac Pro configs. MacMini isn’t usually close, but much better eGPU performance than other machines (likely due to no dGPU present). MBP16,1 is a great machine, but it’s not a desktop.
Overall, Catalina sucks with GPU vs Mojave. One of the major concerns with MP7,1 immediately. A lot depends on 10.15.3 at this point.
I personally picked up a fairly loaded MBP16,1 to replace an aging MBP, good release timing I guess. It’s faster at most “stuff” than nearly all the standard iMac configs. Equal or comes really close to many iMac Pro configs. MacMini isn’t usually close, but much better eGPU performance than other machines (likely due to no dGPU present). MBP16,1 is a great machine, but it’s not a desktop.
Overall, Catalina sucks with GPU vs Mojave. One of the major concerns with MP7,1 immediately. A lot depends on 10.15.3 at this point.
For the longest time I've been on a Mac laptop and Windows boxes. I never understood why anyone would do that years ago, but now ... especially now ... it's not so bad.
But I've been in this situation because a lot of broadcast media (tighter deadlines than any other IMHO) has been in the WinTel world for decades. If I want support for my personal workstation it's easier to sneak it in with the other company machines going out.
Even if I had $10K lying around and the wife's permission my purchases may just be in line with what I currently use. A new 16" MBP, eGPu, and the XDR (would actually save money, was planning on getting a 24" Atom by Atomos.)
I think the desktop market has the slimmest margins of all. Most people are on laptops and tablets. Those few who do buy desktops are all about iMacs. But you're right about the downstream folks, especially if the company has well configured machines. Windows 10 is a very buttery OS.
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Apple has done a great job in putting its laptops to the tech work force. I first used a MBP at work in 2013. It was horrible back then. Just FYI, most larger companies would not use the standard Mac OS for the MBPs. They have to customize it with added security for VPN, email, intranet, etc. But in the last few years, it has improved greatly.
Only time will tell if Apple's new market positioning strategy works; i.e., abandoning $3K entry level desktop market. After all, it's Apple's Mac Pro that attracts me to iPhone, iPad, etc. IMHO, my iPhone 11 Pro Max sucks. My wife's Google Pixel 2 is much more snapier than my iPhone, at half of the cost. It's my Mac Pro that keeps me using Apple products, tolerating inferior performance, and paying 50% more for almost everything related to Apple.
Yeah feeling similar at the moment. Now that my thoughts have gone towards abandoning Mac platform all the apple walls start crumbling down. Mmmaybe Spotify is better than Apple Music for example. Dropbox compared to iCloud. Still hate windows UI everytime I look at it though!
Quick question while I update the post: are these things you will use the mMP for yourself, and what is DFIR? (Guessing some type of image recognition??)
Getting close to 175 posts, so time for an update. Adding:
DFIR and hash cracking, multiple GPU needs
There are also enough comments about the hackintosh / hobbyist segments that I'll add these. Hey, if you're in these segments, please describe what you would use a lower priced new mMP for, or the specific flexibility in the build you need, like having X number of GPUs for a certain purpose, or Y number of hard drives for your network/backups. In other words, IF the mMP had a lower priced version, what would you actually use it for?
And yeah, with that I'm straying a bit from wanting to list actual users of the mMP but these segments could be interesting to explore. BTW, thanks to posters who have suggested who other real users would be, that's informative, but I'm only capturing actual mMP buyers/users who post on here--if you're wondering what my rationale is
Also, if you have posted here already, and are going to be buying/using a mMP, please describe how you will use it if you haven't already. Thanks.
If you are buying a new mMP, and talking about PC/Win in that context, that's great! 😎. If you find yourself getting into a Mac v. Win debate, you may want to head over here to add to the active and robust discussion that's going on: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-is-stopping-you-from-using-windows.2216010/
Not buying:
Cost aware buyers if an iMac Pro or loaded 16" MBP is fast enough for your needs (members noting that you can add a monitor or eGPU if needed, even if it's not ideal).
DFIR and hash cracking, multiple GPU needs
There are also enough comments about the hackintosh / hobbyist segments that I'll add these. Hey, if you're in these segments, please describe what you would use a lower priced new mMP for, or the specific flexibility in the build you need, like having X number of GPUs for a certain purpose, or Y number of hard drives for your network/backups. In other words, IF the mMP had a lower priced version, what would you actually use it for?
And yeah, with that I'm straying a bit from wanting to list actual users of the mMP but these segments could be interesting to explore. BTW, thanks to posters who have suggested who other real users would be, that's informative, but I'm only capturing actual mMP buyers/users who post on here--if you're wondering what my rationale is
Also, if you have posted here already, and are going to be buying/using a mMP, please describe how you will use it if you haven't already. Thanks.If you are buying a new mMP, and talking about PC/Win in that context, that's great! 😎. If you find yourself getting into a Mac v. Win debate, you may want to head over here to add to the active and robust discussion that's going on: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-is-stopping-you-from-using-windows.2216010/
Not buying:
Cost aware buyers if an iMac Pro or loaded 16" MBP is fast enough for your needs (members noting that you can add a monitor or eGPU if needed, even if it's not ideal).
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I am in the hobbyist segment.
I do 3d art. (Did I mention it is a hobby?) Software I use: Blender, ZBrush, Poser, Bryce, Hexagon, Daz Studio - I have an old copy of Vue, but I don't use it much anymore.
My workflow is built around cores and ram - The render engines I use (Cycles, Superfly, and LuxRender - I am learning the AMD ProRender Engine for Blender) are built around cores and ram. (Did I mention it is a hobby?)
I would like to retire my render farm. Yes, a number of us hobbyist have our own render farms. - Because it is a hobby, it is easy to justify a stack of Z210 workstations - ($200ea w/32Gb ram, 120Gb SSD, Xeon quad core and any gpu.) Did I mention it is a hobby?
What I was hoping for (and Timmy should have built) was an updated 5,1.
The Macintosh:
The Xeon 2200 series is fine. (I'd choose the W-3245)
4PCIe slots (prefer PCIe 4.0, but I would settle for 3.0) NO MPX - Yet another solution in search of a problem.
Slots would be used for:
1 GPU (Navi - a W series would be great.)
1 E-Sata Card (This connects to my network storage (Mercury Qx2 - I love this thing).
2 free for what I might need in the future.
256Gb ram Max (I can live with this.)
2 M.2 slots for SSD Memory. (The T2 is another solution in search of a problem.)
Space for 4 3.5" drives internally. If I wanted a rat's nest of cables, and the desire to replace what I view as basic functionality, I would have gotten a 6,1. It was judged and found wanting.
All Apple would have to do is slap a reference board in the stupidly over-engineered case, and Bob's your Uncle. It would end up being the least amount of R&D required, but it would sell enough to cover the cost of the stupid case.
Sell this starting at $4,000 for the 8 core 32Gb, 512Gb T2SSD nonsense, RX580 (because Apple always sells obsolete AMD cards) , and I believe that everybody that was hanging on to the old cheesegraters would have jumped ship within 6 months.
We all know that Timmy ain't gonna do this, so I am moving to a Ryzen 3950x based system. As a hobbyist, I can't quite justify the expense of the TRX40 platform, and the AM4 socket will take the Zen 3 4950x at the end of 2021. In 2023, I can start all over again on the AM5 socket and a 5950x.
I do 3d art. (Did I mention it is a hobby?) Software I use: Blender, ZBrush, Poser, Bryce, Hexagon, Daz Studio - I have an old copy of Vue, but I don't use it much anymore.
My workflow is built around cores and ram - The render engines I use (Cycles, Superfly, and LuxRender - I am learning the AMD ProRender Engine for Blender) are built around cores and ram. (Did I mention it is a hobby?)
I would like to retire my render farm. Yes, a number of us hobbyist have our own render farms. - Because it is a hobby, it is easy to justify a stack of Z210 workstations - ($200ea w/32Gb ram, 120Gb SSD, Xeon quad core and any gpu.) Did I mention it is a hobby?
What I was hoping for (and Timmy should have built) was an updated 5,1.
The Macintosh:
The Xeon 2200 series is fine. (I'd choose the W-3245)
4PCIe slots (prefer PCIe 4.0, but I would settle for 3.0) NO MPX - Yet another solution in search of a problem.
Slots would be used for:
1 GPU (Navi - a W series would be great.)
1 E-Sata Card (This connects to my network storage (Mercury Qx2 - I love this thing).
2 free for what I might need in the future.
256Gb ram Max (I can live with this.)
2 M.2 slots for SSD Memory. (The T2 is another solution in search of a problem.)
Space for 4 3.5" drives internally. If I wanted a rat's nest of cables, and the desire to replace what I view as basic functionality, I would have gotten a 6,1. It was judged and found wanting.
All Apple would have to do is slap a reference board in the stupidly over-engineered case, and Bob's your Uncle. It would end up being the least amount of R&D required, but it would sell enough to cover the cost of the stupid case.
Sell this starting at $4,000 for the 8 core 32Gb, 512Gb T2SSD nonsense, RX580 (because Apple always sells obsolete AMD cards) , and I believe that everybody that was hanging on to the old cheesegraters would have jumped ship within 6 months.
We all know that Timmy ain't gonna do this, so I am moving to a Ryzen 3950x based system. As a hobbyist, I can't quite justify the expense of the TRX40 platform, and the AM4 socket will take the Zen 3 4950x at the end of 2021. In 2023, I can start all over again on the AM5 socket and a 5950x.