nMP 12 Core gets a good clock cleaning from cMP

[antonis]

Of course the nMP will bring the end of the world!
What do you think the "n" stands for? Nuclear! It even looks like a small bomb!
It has caused the drought in California and all the problems of the world!

Get rid of the nMP and save the planet!

Oh no ! I don't want a part in this. Many people will believe the above in this forums. You deal with them !

 

[iBug2]

But Intel's new dual socket systems are much faster than the older ones.... Apple dropped the second socket, and roughly halved the potential of the system.

Yep, only the potential though. For Mac Pro users, probably more than 12 cores wasn't needed to begin with. If it was, why were they using the old Mac Pro instead of a quad CPU workstation?

But in some sense T-Bolt is a solution to a problem that the cheese grater doesn't have.

T-Bolt is a solution to a variety of problems the cMP had. For me the most important one is to be able to use your entire setup with a different computer. Before, all my RAID arrays were connected to my cMP via PCIe eSATA cards. So I wasn't able to connect them to my MBP or to anyone else's MBP whenever they brought their computers to me. Now the whole setup is connected via a single TB cable, so I can access all my files on both of my computers without any annoying semi-solutions. If someone else needs a file from me, they bring their Macs, we connect using TB and bam they can get the file instantly. Before we had to wire the transfer through the eSATA and then through Ethernet, which was clunky and slowed the transfers considerably.

The second is the external audio interfaces. 64IN64OUT interfaces mainly used PCIe hardware because USB 3.0 isn't good enough bandwidth and latency wise.
So if you own an interface, that meant you could only connect it to your MP and not to your MBP's, which is a big problem because you may want to record on a different location by bringing your interface and MBP with you. Now you can because the DA companies are going through the TB route and the next gen interfaces will be able to connected to every Mac, finally and I bet in the future to the iGadgets as well.

 

[slughead]

Because some of the high end people who buy computers have stopped buying the ones with PCI-e slots? Look at the trends of Sonnet, CalDigit, Pegasus, AJA, BlackMagic, etc. They are leaving PCI-E behind and moving to Thunderbolt 2.0 and then 3.0. And I'm not in a bubble. The Mac Pros are squarely aimed at the clients I contract with.

Tbolt 3.0??

my understanding is 1) that's not out yet 2) it's not going to be backwards compatible with 2.0 devices.

 

[slughead]

I just find it interesting to learn what has changed in the MP and what hasn't. What is possible with a cMP, and what isn't. You seem to have dug in your heels, maybe you should just go for a walk and get a coffee

For me that's what this is really about. It has nothing to do with how great old technology is, just with how versatile and upgradable things used to be.

The nMP is new, isn't a terrible deal for what you get, etc. However, this thread demonstrates that upgradability of these old systems is quite remarkable.

Unfortunately I feel like the nMP is lacking in this regard, and that some users don't understand the real downsides about the limitations of the form-factor. The cMP will eventually be so outdated even complicated hack-jobs wont bring it up to speed, but it looks like in the meantime, this 4 year old dinosaur can be upgraded to outperform the proprietary iTube in a variety of ways.

Meanwhile, offerings from other companies offer future-proofing to put it in a similar position as the old Mac Pro, while using base-specs on par with the nMP. Dual CPUs and PCIe slots are going to be with us for a long time. Thunderbolt 2, however, is going to be replaced (and be non-compatible) with TB3 and the current xeon socket's days are numbered. This puts the nMP in kind of a rut as far as future-proofing. I am also hugely skeptical about future video card offerings to upgrade existing nMPs, but that's for another thread

 

[slughead]

I guess you missed the part of the article that says "But installation can be tricky if you lack "McGiver" skills". Not a very reassuring sentence to make me invest on a "new" (deprecated/discontinued) machine.

I guess you missed the part of my reply where I said I'd written an article about how to do it, and that it's not that hard. It's not that much more difficult than, say, purchasing external storage and drives separately and hooking them up externally as opposed to just throwing them internally into your Mac Pro.

I guess in this kind of situation you can take your pick between external storage and external power.

Regardless, in 4 years when the nMP is now 4 years old, is it really going to hold a candle, regardless of hacking, to the computers out at that time? Doubtful. There might be dual or quad core GPUs available at that time being thrown into workstations.

If I had 10 grand to spend on a computer to do these tasks, you're right that I wouldn't buy a cMP. However, I wouldn't by a nMP either, I'd buy a PC. The money saved over time and the versatility of PCIe slots is clearly demonstrated by these tests.

 

[paulrbeers]

Tbolt 3.0??

my understanding is 1) that's not out yet 2) it's not going to be backwards compatible with 2.0 devices.

Actually it is backwards compatible:

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-and-100w-power-delivery-for-single-cable-pcs

It will require an adapter (think FW800 to FW400), but it is fully backwards compatible.

 

[slughead]

Actually it is backwards compatible:

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-and-100w-power-delivery-for-single-cable-pcs

It will require an adapter (think FW800 to FW400), but it is fully backwards compatible.

Looks like I was off, but I'm still not sure it's "fully" backwards compatible. Obviously this states that TB2 devices will work over the TB3 interface, but will TB3 devices work over a TB2 interface, like PCIe 3.0 cards work over PCIe 2.0 interfaces and USB 3 devices work on USB 2 controllers?

For instance, Intel claims Alpine Ridge will finally fully support GPU over thunderbolt, but can you just throw an adapter on one of those GPU boxes and have it on TB2?

 

[antonis]

I guess you missed the part of my reply where I said I'd written an article about how to do it, and that it's not that hard. It's not that much more difficult than, say, purchasing external storage and drives separately and hooking them up externally as opposed to just throwing them internally into your Mac Pro.

I guess in this kind of situation you can take your pick between external storage and external power.

Regardless, in 4 years when the nMP is now 4 years old, is it really going to hold a candle, regardless of hacking, to the computers out at that time? Doubtful. There might be dual or quad core GPUs available at that time being thrown into workstations.

If I had 10 grand to spend on a computer to do these tasks, you're right that I wouldn't buy a cMP. However, I wouldn't by a nMP either, I'd buy a PC. The money saved over time and the versatility of PCIe slots is clearly demonstrated by these tests.

I don't disagree on any of the above (I do read your posts which I believe they contribute a big time here). But let me get back to the topic of this thread. My initial objection (like many others) is that:

- The OP creates a thread with a totally false and provoking title. Why ? Because the title is visible outside the thread too, so it can be used to make a statement.

- The OP creates the initial post for this thread, where he links an article that it does not justify the thread's title by no means. He also puts the word "Ouch".

Now, in my vocabulary, that's the definition of trolling.
Even if it is not, I totally fail to see the point of such a thread (regardless that we all get he's heavily biased for obvious personal reasons).

I honestly hope that you don't disagree with the above. It's just common sense.

 

[slughead]

The OP creates the initial post for this thread, where he links an article that it does not justify the thread's title by no means. He also puts the word "Ouch".

Now, in my vocabulary, that's the definition of trolling.
Even if it is not, I totally fail to see the point of such a thread (regardless that we all get he's heavily biased for obvious personal reasons).

I'll grant The OP may have been trolling a bit, but there is still much to be learned form this article/thread. We shouldn't let trolls derail what could be a good discussion

Likely from OP's perspective, this point has been made many times and this is just the final piece of evidence that replaceable video cards (which he admittedly sells) have enormous potential. While it's a bit trollish and self-serving I suppose, he has a point and many users have repeatedly bashed him on this issue while being demonstrably wrong.

I would add that I am not personally all that impressed with the D700, they do behave about as well as the 2.5 year old consumer cards which hover around half the price nowadays. The impressive part to the nMP for me is the low power consumption and therefore the impressive performance / watt&heat of the D700's, but that's not that big of a selling point for myself and a lot of workstation users. In addition to this, graphics card technology is likely going through a few more game-changers in the near future, and the proprietary nature of the nMP form-factor will leave current buyers in the cold until Apple introduces a revision. This article merely demonstrates perfectly that standardization and the high-bandwidth nature of PCIe future proofs it in ways that the nMP will not be able to take advantage of.

 

[handsome pete]

For Mac Pro users, probably more than 12 cores wasn't needed to begin with.

Well that's some wild speculation there. Out of all the Mac Pros I've seen in the field, I'd estimate only about 10% were single socket systems.

 

[theluggage]

nMP are going to be stuck with the D700 for a long time (my guess: forever, or until they swap out their whole computer),

The real question, then, is what the economics will be of swapping out a complete nMP for a new model vs. just upgrading the GPUs in a Big Box 'o Slots.

On a crude comparison, upgrading the tower GPUs is bound to be cheaper (unless you insist on 'FirePro' or 'Quadro' branded cards). However, that leaves you with a pair of old-model GPUs to flog on eBay, and the same old CPU, RAM, GPU, SSD etc., whereas option (a) updates everything and leaves you with a complete, working, old-model nMP to sell or repurpose.

So if used nMPs turn out to hold their value well, that might not be such a simple call.

Plus, of course, for businesses who lease their kit, this may all be irrelevant (and the sort of mods and re-flashed GPUs discussed in the articl may not be an option).

 

[slughead]

So if used nMPs turn out to hold their value well, that might not be such a simple call..

That's probably a huge factor, we wont really know until it happens. Some computers become collectors' items. My guess is that the cMP holds its value so well precisely because of upgrades in the article mentioned, and that the nMP will have no such luck. We will have to wait and see though.

You're right that individual used components are basically worthless on ebay. I often end up giving mine away or doing target practice with them

 

[calaverasgrande]

pretty far from clock cleaning. I'd actually say this is trolling. Has the OP even commented after the initial post.

 

[N19h7m4r3]

pretty far from clock cleaning. I'd actually say this is trolling. Has the OP even commented after the initial post.

He has not. As usual he creates a thread with a bait worthy title and then let's thing spiral.
Everything from the title, to just that single word is all just trolling.

No insight, no opinion, nothing.

 

[flowrider]

For me that's what this is really about. It has nothing to do with how great old technology is, just with how versatile and upgradable things used to be.

The nMP is new, isn't a terrible deal for what you get, etc. However, this thread demonstrates that upgradability of these old systems is quite remarkable.

Unfortunately I feel like the nMP is lacking in this regard, and that some users don't understand the real downsides about the limitations of the form-factor. The cMP will eventually be so outdated even complicated hack-jobs wont bring it up to speed, but it looks like in the meantime, this 4 year old dinosaur can be upgraded to outperform the proprietary iTube in a variety of ways.

Meanwhile, offerings from other companies offer future-proofing to put it in a similar position as the old Mac Pro, while using base-specs on par with the nMP. Dual CPUs and PCIe slots are going to be with us for a long time. Thunderbolt 2, however, is going to be replaced (and be non-compatible) with TB3 and the current xeon socket's days are numbered. This puts the nMP in kind of a rut as far as future-proofing. I am also hugely skeptical about future video card offerings to upgrade existing nMPs, but that's for another thread

This Post is very well written and very well thought out. The oMP can be made to run at competitive speeds with the nMP - TODAY. TOMORROW - Not So Much!

But, the reason I bought my 5,1 (after the nMP was announced) was, and still is, all about expandability and upgradability. But, those two advantages will erode with the passing of time due to technology changes.

Lou

 

[MacVidCards]

That's probably a huge factor, we wont really know until it happens. Some computers become collectors' items. My guess is that the cMP holds its value so well precisely because of upgrades in the article mentioned, and that the nMP will have no such luck. We will have to wait and see though.

You're right that individual used components are basically worthless on ebay. I often end up giving mine away or doing target practice with them

A 2009 can be upgraded to be faster than anything Apple offers today. Amazing.

And that is why cMPs have held their value, not because they are shiny, or offer easy Facebook integration, or iTunes connections.

 

[resotek]

Cables? this is a solution for what?
USB, Fiberchannel or Firewire also has cabels.

i dont see my 5 solutions of your millions

Soldier: My daddy was in maintenance and he had a saying, he used to say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Much better:
My daddy always said, "When you want to insert a nail into a piece of wood, don't do anything fancy or glamorous. Just take the damn hammer and hit the son of a bitch until it's in."

I hate to say it but the hammer wasn't broke, but it got fixed. Nail guns have replaced hammers for all the pros. In the modern age, if you want to insert a nail into a piece of wood you pull the trigger. Done.

 

[handsome pete]

I hate to say it but the hammer wasn't broke, but it got fixed. Nail guns have replaced hammers for all the pros. In the modern age, if you want to insert a nail into a piece of wood you pull the trigger. Done.

That's a pretty terrible analogy though. Where the nail gun improved speed (albeit at the expense of cost, necessity of compressor, tethered to hose, etc.), Thunderbolt isn't offering the same differential over other high speed interfaces.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Well, in some instances it may or may not be faster then the nMP. Then again as far as the GPU, they used is hacked with new firmware, rigged external power supplies. For some it will not be a very good solution for upgrading to an existing system. While I use to like the op's posts, nowadays he spends it in timeout on Macrumors instead of useful posts.

 

[flowrider]

^^^^The OPs post did exactly what he intended it to do. Inspire Discussion. Has he succeeded? - I Think So

Lou

 

[iBug2]

And that is why cMPs have held their value, not because they are shiny, or offer easy Facebook integration, or iTunes connections.

A 2010 model iMac is up for 560$ on eBay which had a 1100$ list price. I'll agree that buying a second hand Mac Pro is more attractive than buying a second hand iMac, but most Apple computers retain their value, not just Mac Pro's.

 

[theluggage]

A 2009 can be upgraded to be faster than anything Apple offers today. Amazing.

Not really. As lots of people have pointed out, most of the CPU development over the last few years has been directed at power saving rather than making faster workstations and servers. If Apple had simply updated the cMP to 2013 tech then, although it would beat a 2009 with updated GPUs, it probably wouldn't have been that much faster - nor would it have stood out much against PC workstations.

 

[slughead]

A 2009 can be upgraded to be faster than anything Apple offers today. Amazing.

And that is why cMPs have held their value, not because they are shiny, or offer easy Facebook integration, or iTunes connections.

But can it play farmville?

----------

Not really. As lots of people have pointed out, most of the CPU development over the last few years has been directed at power saving rather than making faster workstations and servers. If Apple had simply updated the cMP to 2013 tech then, although it would beat a 2009 with updated GPUs, it probably wouldn't have been that much faster - nor would it have stood out much against PC workstations.

You didn't really contradict him, you just said that the nMP has more performance/watt. He said it was faster.

 

[beaker7]

Not really. As lots of people have pointed out, most of the CPU development over the last few years has been directed at power saving rather than making faster workstations and servers. If Apple had simply updated the cMP to 2013 tech then, although it would beat a 2009 with updated GPUs, it probably wouldn't have been that much faster - nor would it have stood out much against PC workstations.

In rendering applications, a hypothetical cMP that was updated to E5v2 chips would be about 3-3.5 faster than the 2009 top-end Mac Pro. This is a fact.

 

[OS6-OSX]

My cMP v. nMP posts are shots directed at Apple and the shadow play in which they love to engage. Another example of clock cleaning!

Dated 12-28-10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foLxsL5RU6k
This video shows 9 video tracks (various types including R3D) playing with efx. It is possible based on the 5,1-Quadro 4000-Adobe Mercury engine combination.

Dated 12-20-13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-myFXiEh2Q
This video shows 1 video track (R3D 4K) playing with 18 efx.
It is possible based on nMP-Flash drive-FCPX written for the nMP.

Instead of adding up to 18 efx they should have continued to add 4K video tracks. Based on that video it is not known is multicam play back is possible with R3D on the nMP.