Looks like I will get the adapter and heat sink today, but Amazon screwed up the order for the SSD. Will advise ASAP
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NVMe with ST-NGFF2013-C; Vega Internal GPU; Mac Pro 2013 (6,1)
- Thread starter CodeJingle
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It depends. With schematics/layout already in hand, I would say non-destructive. Without schematics/layout, I have to create them myself, which requires scraping off each layer of trace on each of the left/right GPU boards and draw up the schematics/layout myself (by the end of which the original left/right boards are destroyed which is why I need another pair of them). Once I have the schematics/layout I can start testing a direct x16 connection between the CPU and a newer GPU such as a Vega. Some of the pins need to pass-through to the original left/right GPU boards (the non-destroyed ones) because those boards contain supporting circuitry for non-graphics features such as the hard drive. The GPU portion of the original left/right cards will no longer be connected to the CPU. Instead, the newer GPUs will be connected. So I have to do a very intelligent partial split of the graphics board flex cable pins, between the original left/right and a pair of newer GPUs.
"I think we designed ourselves into a bit of a thermal corner"
https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
You will note that Apple admitted the Mac Pro 2013 aluminum enclosure is at thermal capacity with a pair of D700s. Which means the enclosure overheats with newer GPUs (if those GPUs run hotter than D700s), or WOULD overheat with newer GPUs [if they ever come to market]. We already know we have to do a full teardown of the Mac Pro 2013 to throw away the trash can enclosure model and replace it with one that doesn't easily overheat such as with a more traditional tower enclosure. Arguably throwing away half of the computer is destructive, even if the part being thrown away doesn't contain any electronics. Though technically the enclosure has only been separated from the electronics and hasn't been physically altered. If you kept all the pieces of the original enclosure for posterity, you might only need a dab of adhesive and a dab of thermal paste to restore it to its original condition (assuming non-destroyed left/right GPU boards).
Update - Since the CPU pinout is public I might be able to use continuity testing to track the progress of the set of PCIe pins from the unpopulated CPU socket to the left/right graphics cards. It really depends whether those pins are pass-thru from the graphics card to the CPU. I hope they are. If so the testing process would be completely non-destructive.
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In other words, you'll turn it into a Hackintosh.
Wouldn't buying/building a Hackintosh be much simpler, cheaper, and more reliable?
No sir I am turning a Mac Pro 2013 into a Mac Pro 2010/2012 with upgraded internals. It is in no way a Hackintosh. I am open to debate how swapping out one heatsink for another changes the computer from a Mac to a Hackintosh. The hard drive I just upgraded, even the GPU upgrade I am planning (Vega), they are both the same as what is shipping in the iMac Pro. It is 100% Mac all the way.
Though if I were doing this properly I would also buy an actual Mac Pro 2010/2012 and gut it out, use that case for the Mac Pro 2013 transplant.
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I would open the debate by saying that if you add a modern GPU (red or green) - it's no longer an nMP, it's a Hackintosh.
You're assuming that the nMP's bastard EFI BIOS will even recognize something other than the anemic ATI cards (D300/D500/D700).
As we get into debate lets keep in mind mutual respect etc. If you read my last post, I stated that iMac Pro is shipping with Vega, and Vega is what I plan to upgrade to. Driver support trickles across all machines in the Mac Pro/iMac Pro line, just like it did for the unsupported hard drive I just installed on my machine, its driver support tricked down from other products such as the iMac Pro.
Further, macOS High Sierra officially supports eGPU. As a side effect of that, compatibility for graphics cards has gone up. If you buy a modern graphics card for macOS use, there is a strong possibility of finding good drivers. There is no incentive for Apple to add the driver for eGPU over Thunderbolt but refuse to enable the driver for 'iGPU' over PCIe.
Also, and this is probably even more relevant, the 2010/2012 Mac Pro still exists. It has regular PCIe slots. People put whatever graphics card they want in there, and it seems to work. Whatever driver support is on iMac Pro and Mac Pro 2010/2012 will also exist in Mac Pro 2013.
I agree a Hackintosh is cheaper. I think our agreements about Hackintosh end there. I've tried Hackintosh before; it isn't reliable for me. And in some regards, the legality of Hackintosh is questionable. I use my Mac Pro at the office for legit embedded developer work, including iOS Apps in the App Store. I'm not going to do official company iOS App development on a Hackintosh. I am betting everything works out fine. I like a challenge. I would be fine doing all this work and it flopped because Apple refused to add driver support. Though I value your feedback, it is something I've already taken into account. I started in the industry with high-end PC running Windows. I'm not against PCs/Windows.
If I can put off for four more years spending $10k [+ tax] on a new server, then it is worth a few thousand dollars of investment to upgrade my current server. I just upgraded to two terabytes of storage, soon I'll have 128 GB of RAM, and then eventually hopefully I'm running Vega instead of FirePro. To me those goals are reasonable. The money I spent on the highest-end fully decked out Mac Pro 2013 is a serious investment why would I throw that away. Give me credit for trying to be more creative than that. Hackintosh has been done before.
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I think it’s a worthy goal, but I do agree with AidenShaw in that success will depend on out of the box support for a card such as Vega when wired in. It appears that 32 PCI lanes are taken by the 2 cards, so it’s logical to assume that it IS possible. First challenge is doing the pin outs, second will be to find a way to run cable to 2 cards (doubt it would boot with a single one, but who knows) in a clean fashion. Not a lot of room in that little trash can.
I’ll personally stick to the eGPU at least for the foreseeable future with the RX580. Maybe look at Vega when the drivers are fully baked and when eGPU chassis are slimmer and smaller.
I wish there was a way to aggregate 2 TB2 busses for eGPU use. That would be an interesting mod and x8 shouldn’t bottleneck most cards.
I’ll personally stick to the eGPU at least for the foreseeable future with the RX580. Maybe look at Vega when the drivers are fully baked and when eGPU chassis are slimmer and smaller.
I wish there was a way to aggregate 2 TB2 busses for eGPU use. That would be an interesting mod and x8 shouldn’t bottleneck most cards.
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...and keeping the MP6,1 BIOS from injecting D300 firmware into a Vega.
@CodeJingle I admire your effort dissecting the nMP to connect PCIe GPUs. Outside of Apple, I don't think anyone has undertaken this task yet. Would love to see how this turns out.
Is plugging in two eGPU currently not supported? Has anyone tried it?
The OS, even pre-boot, is going to know it isn't a D300/D500/D700. If the cards work then in the worst case, an OS/bootloader update that would normally also update the firmware on the graphics cards skips that step. It isn't that bad if the firmware on the cards never gets updated. I could update the GPU firmware from a Windows box or possibly from Windows on BootCamp. The Mac Pro 2010/2012 are still in use, the OS/bootloader knows what to do with nearly any graphics card, and I expect that PCIe graphics smartness is part of both the OS and bootloader running on Mac Pro 2013. We will find out anyway. Do you agree or disagree? https://www.macrumors.com/2010/07/27/apple-announces-new-mac-pros-with-up-to-12-cores-ssd-options/
Other than some research I haven't started yet. I just blew $1200+ on the 2 TB hard drive upgrade, which in itself is a kind of pre-cursor test leading up to the GPU stuff. I need to save up to buy an extra pair of left/right GPUs to destroy in the process of creating a schematic to understand better the 300 pin connector going to each card. I've found schematics for nearly every Mac ever made except the Mac Pro 2013, and it continues to enrage me because the schematic always has diagrams for every set of pinouts and it would save me a lot of time and money. I plan to remove the trash can enclosure after getting either the schematic or an extra pair of left/right cards. The way things are going I would say Q1 2018.
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From my experience, it's one eGPU per Thunderbolt controller. The nMP has three TBT controllers and can handle upto 3 eGPUs. RX Vega drivers are getting better now that iMac Pro launch is near.
That’s my understanding as well. What I wondered was if there was a way to sync 2 TB busses to get TB3 bandwidth (less some overhead). I think not, and I imagine signaling would take up a lot.
Would be interesting though, but as the Pro is the only system with more than one bus it is a very niche solution.
Ok I changed my mind. I can probably begin transplant of the enclosure this weekend, or at least begin the process of getting all the tools necessary to do so. I'll be starting another thread for that. I still don't have the connector pin diagram so the GPU stuff is still on hold, but literally any custom work I would want to attempt will be easier out of this imprisoning enclosure. I drag my computer every day between home and work so in that regard a larger case will suck, but overall still worth it.
This is fascinating.
Unfortunately Apple seems to treat the 2013 Mac Pro's GPUs like they are a national security matter. I remember when people had dead boards and went in for a warranty swap the shops said they couldn't keep any GPU boards in inventory because Apple required a diagnosed dead board before they'd let an authorized service shop order a new one.
There are D500 GPUs on Ebay right now, which is a fairly rare event. But the prices will give you a heart attack.
Anyway, I wish you luck with your project.
Unfortunately Apple seems to treat the 2013 Mac Pro's GPUs like they are a national security matter. I remember when people had dead boards and went in for a warranty swap the shops said they couldn't keep any GPU boards in inventory because Apple required a diagnosed dead board before they'd let an authorized service shop order a new one.
There are D500 GPUs on Ebay right now, which is a fairly rare event. But the prices will give you a heart attack.
Anyway, I wish you luck with your project.
The most economical option to gain a large number of spare parts for custom work on a Mac Pro 2013 is to buy another one. Otherwise, they sell the left/right graphics cards on mac repair sites. To get an extra pair of left/right cards with another two flex cables [when buying new] will run from $1210 to $2390.
http://www.macpartsonline.com/mac-pro-parts/mac-pro-late-2013-a1481-parts.html
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You CAN buy new stock boards, I think the best price for D700s were around $750 each (one A and one B board). At that price I could buy a nMP - 6-core D700 prices are slipping to around $2600 - and swap things around and resell a 6-core with D300 for around $2000.
But thanks to the RX580 eGPU it’s moot now. Once I put in the 2TB I think I’m done messing around and just want to use the thing!
But thanks to the RX580 eGPU it’s moot now. Once I put in the 2TB I think I’m done messing around and just want to use the thing!
I got a mp 6.1 in Oktober.
A refurb for 1500 euro.
With 2 year warrenty ( BE/EU ).
A Project like thiswould be bad for the warrenty.
But having spare parts ... for all the tech I use for a living.
Or just spare computer/camera's for the one's I use.
I saw a performance benmark between a cooled and non cooled Samsung 951
and the performance difference was pretty big.
The cooled one had stellar performance ... the non cooled permance went up and down in spikes.
My biggest fear, when the SSD in my nMP failes, prices wil be astronomical.
They are already now ... if you find new on ebay or whatever.
I work with medium format cameras. I was working on an expo and the nMP blocked,
because of scratch disk space in PS. Atm. I have a 960GB blade in a TB2 enclosure.
And a 5TB USB 3.0 ( with 2 TB free for scratch space ).
2 TB was not enough.
My cMP 3.1 never ran out of scratch disk space.
A refurb for 1500 euro.
With 2 year warrenty ( BE/EU ).
A Project like thiswould be bad for the warrenty.
But having spare parts ... for all the tech I use for a living.
Or just spare computer/camera's for the one's I use.
I saw a performance benmark between a cooled and non cooled Samsung 951
and the performance difference was pretty big.
The cooled one had stellar performance ... the non cooled permance went up and down in spikes.
My biggest fear, when the SSD in my nMP failes, prices wil be astronomical.
They are already now ... if you find new on ebay or whatever.
I work with medium format cameras. I was working on an expo and the nMP blocked,
because of scratch disk space in PS. Atm. I have a 960GB blade in a TB2 enclosure.
And a 5TB USB 3.0 ( with 2 TB free for scratch space ).
2 TB was not enough.
My cMP 3.1 never ran out of scratch disk space.
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Two questions about this....
Back in one of the flame wars about "there will be upgrade GPUs for the MP6,1 because of the screws", I believe that it was mentioned that there's no NVRAM on the Dx00 GPUs - it was said that the BIOS loads the firmware onto the card at each boot. I can't find any confirmation or rebuttal of this today, however.
Whether there is NVRAM or not, the second question is whether the BIOS/bootloader ignores the failure of the Dx00 firmware update - or whether it's considered to be a fatal error that halts the system.
I too couldn't find posts i had in mind, but think that this will do for now.
http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,11517.0.html
And this could also be interesting
http://forum.netkas.org/index.php/topic,8126.0.html
I would guess that if there is no explicit 'here, I am' IC on the board for non-volatile memory that there is a little bit tucked into one of the memory modules (DRAM and NVRAM in the same package). The main GPU chip might have onboard storage. It seems tragic to manufacture something as complex as a graphics card in 2013 and not be able to update its internal firmware.
As long as it runs fine with its current firmware, a graphics card not wanting to accept new firmware doesn't cause the Mac Pro 2013 to hang. You can call me on this later if it turns out to be incorrect.
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You've tested this with a Vega or Pascal in an MP6,1?
I'm skeptical because I've dealt with many cases of the BIOS rejecting devices simply because they aren't on the "white list" of supported devices.
For example, I've seen it mentioned here that the MP6,1 won't boot if the 2nd "compute" GPU is missing.
Certainly, nothing should keep the OS from running with only the graphics GPU. But, the BIOS decides that one GPU is not acceptable - and halts the boot.
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It may still need to be whitelisted. If the iMac Pro bootloader adds a whitelist for Vega, I'm hoping that update trickles down to Mac Pro 2013 bootloader. There are only a handful of workstation-class graphics cards on the market, even including all of the cards the list would be small.
I am speculating. I won't know till I test it. Getting to that point from where I am now may take a couple of months. I've had another idea halfway through today to map the connector pins of the graphics cards without having to destroy a pair of left/right cards (using continuity testing), though I would still prefer to swap out the trash can enclosure before starting that.
I'm sure someone knows how to boot a Mac Pro 2013 so that it works with only one of the graphics cards. Though the hard drive is embedded in one of the cards which makes it tricky. I assume the two GPUs must be replaced simultaneously and the replacement also have to be workstation class.
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I think this is the thread you remember:
https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...ing-for-nmp-proof-is-in-the-firmware.1876181/
I bought my Mac Pro 2013 in December 2013. Warranty expired
I am using a heatsink and combined with the air flow it should never overheat. If you are worried about performance throttling because of heat then get a heatsink.
The prices keep going up because the hard drives keep getting faster. The current generation of SSD is 3 gigabytes per second throughput which is blazing fast but also blazes through your wallet. Once the hard drive speed stops doubling every couple years then the the prices will go back down. I doubt you prefer the speed of platter even if you prefer the price.
4 TB NVMe will be available soon. It is an option on the iMac Pro so we can assume Samsung will announce availability in the next few months. I expect it will cost ~$2k. You can get 4 TB now from MacSales but it isn't using the latest technology it is slow and they charge too much for it.
https://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/SSDA13MP4.0K/
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