NVMe with ST-NGFF2013-C; Vega Internal GPU; Mac Pro 2013 (6,1)

[astroPaz]

You should update the firmware. It includes critical security patches.

I'm installing Big Sur on the Apple SSD right now.

Is this on a 6,1? If so, I wonder what the difference between our systems is. I've moved from Catalina to several versions of Big Sur and never received a firmware upgrade...

Have you upgraded the CPU?

---------------
Edit:
I put the Apple SSD back in, reinstalled Big Sur from USB installer, now my firmware version is 428.140.7.0.0.
I wonder if I need to do this again next time.

 

[MisterAndrew]

Shouldn’t have to. I have a 970 EVO Plus installed and the firmware updates.

 

[incumbent]

wrong thread sorry, i'll drop this in the trashcan6,1 2013 kernel panic and GPU thread

 

[ikir]

Still no way to update firmware without Apple SSD?

 

[iMactouch]

Still no way to update firmware without Apple SSD?

Sure it is possible! You have to have installed the firmware from 10.14.x (if I remember correctly). After that you can use a NVMe also to update firmware. That has been working on my ‚ac Pro 2013 the last two years without any problem.

 

[cubemusic]

Hi,

I have a strange problem. I´m using a Mac Pro 6.1 (from 2014 I guess), 8-core, 2xD700, 64 GB, and I first installed a Crucial P3 1TB, and it worked fine. Then I installed a Crucial P3 with 4TB and it worked fine as well. No problems with the OS, no problems with Time Machine - everything is fine.

But: I can´t shut down the system - neither with the 1TB, nor with the 4TB. All icons dissapear, the background wallpaper stays on and also the mouse arrow. But the system freezes and after quite a long while (10-15 minutes or so) the Mac does a restart and informs me that the system crashed (see error message attached).

I resetted the NVRAM and also the SMC, and I did the first aid in the disk utility program. I used three different NVMe-adapters so far (one is a Sintech actually but the short one and not the long one with the ´C´ in the name - I´m waiting for that (with very low expectations)) and when I boot the Mac in safe mode, then I can shut it down with no problems. I can also shut it down when I choose to do so without being logged in.

I need the 4TB variant because this Mac has to work as an emergency-backup-system in case my 2020 Mac Pro crashes during production.

Does anyone maybe have an idea what the issue could be?

Kind regards,

Philip

 

[CodeJingle]

Hi,

I have a strange problem.

Based on the attached text looks like the system does mostly shut down. But I guess it never cuts the power. Then after 300 seconds the watchdog trips and kernel panics your system. Never heard of that.

My guess is either one of your drivers hasn't updated properly or you have some faulty hardware. Or something installed on the machine that stops it from fully shutting down.

Can you check system logs for recent errors not just the kernel panic message?

 

[tabormeister]

So what ever happened to your crazy trash can project @CodeJingle ? There was etching and soldering going on as I recall

 

[cubemusic]

HI CodeJingle,

thank you for your reply.

I don´t know if other reports really are helpful, because:

1) I don´t have anything attached to the Mac Pro other than a monitor, an ethernet cable and power

2) With the original Apple 1TB SSD the system shuts down without any problems

3) Only with the Crucial drives it doesn´t, and that means, it doesn´t with the 4TB P3 variant (Monterey freshly installed and then ´Time Machine(d)´with the external Time Machine SSD from my 2020 Mac Pro

4) But with the 1TB Crucial P3 the system also doesn´t shut down and this one is also completely new (purchased last week as was the 4TB) and the only thing I did with it was to freshly install Monterey. Unfortunately there is no new firmware on the Crucial website

Oh, and by the way, I forgot the benchmarks:

Original Apple 1TB-SSD: W: 926, R:884
Crucial P3 4TB: W: 1320, R: 1455

And I forgot to mention that I witnessed another strange situation today. I changed the adapter to a new one (the brand is called Anyoyo), and after installing it the Mac shut down correctly once. And that was that. Only once. After that I didn´t move the Mac so I don´t think that the adapter got out of place. Everything worked fine after that, only that the system wasn´t shutting down again - as ´usual´.

Shall I have a look to the other reports anyway, although the shutdown problem only occurs with both Crucial ´drives´?

Oh, and what did you mean by the drives not being updated properly?

 

[CodeJingle]

I don´t know if other reports really are helpful

Shall I have a look to the other reports anyway, although the shutdown problem only occurs with both Crucial ´drives´?

Nothing stands out as causing the issue, and the kernel panic report is not helpful. There is nothing else to do, other than try running the expanded internal diagnostics that Apple Store employees use (I forget the name), or share a link to a zip of your system logs uploaded to the cloud.

The main point of this thread is that the Apple SSD works fine (which is NOT NVMe), and using any latest-gen SSD (as in NVMe) has a small chance of running into a rainbow of possible issues. Again yes the system logs may be helpful.

Oh, and what did you mean by the drives not being updated properly?

Sometimes, when your internal drive is NVMe, the System Update process fails to update the drivers (internal firmware) associated with storage. In that case, you would swap the internal drive with one that is AHCI, not NVMe, update, then swap back. It's been a while I'm not sure if this is still an issue.

 

[CodeJingle]

So what ever happened to your crazy trash can project @CodeJingle ? There was etching and soldering going on as I recall

When I found out the internal hard drive was going through the platform controller (which technically doesn't fully support NVME) I kind of abandoned the project.

The next thing was to extrapolate the proprietary graphics connector to standard PCIe. I spent over 100 hours just on the main board and only got about halfway through the layers. I didn't have the money or time to continue the project. PCIe as a standard is also somewhat trade-secret and joining the club costs a lot of money. In hindsight the trash can GPU connectors seem close to SXM so maybe they weren't so proprietary (jk even as a standard SXM is proprietary).

My day job was very boring and then suddenly became interesting again. So I had less time. Also, the startup I was working at did not pay well so I wasn't making enough to continue investing in the project. And my personal life got more complex also taking time away.

I moved recently and am building out my hardware lab at home. It's an ongoing process to utilize the lab as much as possible even though it's not done. There are also new technologies hitting the market like JBC's high-precision hot air rework station, or being able to use a full-frame mirrorless DSLR in a microscope setup. I'll get to those things eventually.

Shared Photos

share.icloud.com

Shared Photos

share.icloud.com

VR is finally viable I've started dabbling in using it to aid in hardware development. I've hinted at this before. Here is a video where I play around with Open Brush to connect VIAs between board layers (Meta Quest Pro). The video is boring, completely ad-hoc, no production value.

I'm currently reverse engineering a product. Much smaller scale than the trash can. It's something I feel I have the time and resources to accomplish. Like I've matched and gotten stock for most of the components to build my prototype clone of the board. iPad with Apple Pencil using the Concepts app has been great at reconstructing the layers. Here is an example, a layer I finished documenting.

Shared Photos

share.icloud.com

The future is HBM memory and the CPU + GPU + memory basically on the same die. What a server is or should be is hard to say right now.

 

[tabormeister]

Cool as hell @CodeJingle, best of luck in your nerding

And @cubemusic for what it's worth, p3 has been documented to have issues with Macs in the 2013-2015 MBP thread - SK Hynix P31 is the gold standard (lol) and many others work fine, something about p3 controller is saucy with macos. Get an SN550 or 660p if you're after cheapness/bigness.

 

[cubemusic]

Cool as hell @CodeJingle, best of luck in your nerding

And @cubemusic for what it's worth, p3 has been documented to have issues with Macs in the 2013-2015 MBP thread - SK Hynix P31 is the gold standard (lol) and many others work fine, something about p3 controller is saucy with macos. Get an SN550 or 660p if you're after cheapness/bigness.

No, it‘s not about cheapness. I need a 4TB one. Can you recommend one? I couldn‘t find one from Hynix or WD Blue at first glance…

 

[CodeJingle]

No, it‘s not about cheapness. I need a 4TB one. Can you recommend one? I couldn‘t find one from Hynix or WD Blue at first glance…

I've been out of the loop but from prior knowledge the most compatible is Samsung. Then 2nd maybe OWC. Anyone else chime in if they know better than me.

This looks like 4TB M2 NVMe from Samsung can anyone vouch for it (PM9A3 MZ1L23T8HBLA-00A07)?

Samsung MZ1L23T8HBLA-00A07 PM9A3 3.8TB NVMe PCIe Gen4 V6 M.2 22x110mm SSD | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Samsung MZ1L23T8HBLA-00A07 PM9A3 3.8TB NVMe PCIe Gen4 V6 M.2 22x110mm SSD at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

OWC 4TB M2 NVMe

4.0TB OWC Aura Ultra III M.2 NVMe SSD

Using NVMe technology designed for flash memory, Aura Ultra III provides a perfectly optimized blend of speed and reliability to reach speeds up to 3400MB/s.

eshop.macsales.com

 

[cubemusic]

Hi CodeJingle,

thank you so very much - that‘s great help (and thank you tabormeister as well of course)!

I will try the Samsung first and will report, what happened.

 

[steve123]

Have a look at this thread:

PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

This is a general info thread for blade SSDs that can be used in the Mac Pro. This is a WikiPost so anyone with the proper credentials may edit it. NVMe SSDs can be used as a boot drive in the MP5,1 and MP6,1 with the latest firmware installed (beginning with version 140.0.0.0.0 for MP5,1 and...

forums.macrumors.com

There is a lot of reports about various SSD's in that thread. It goes back quite far so you probably want to focus on the last 6 months. I do not think the list in the first post is up to date. Samsung 980 Pro is ok as I recall (I am using a 1TB 980 Pro). If you get one be sure the check the firmware is the most recent version.

 

[tsialex]

Have a look at this thread:

PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

This is a general info thread for blade SSDs that can be used in the Mac Pro. This is a WikiPost so anyone with the proper credentials may edit it. NVMe SSDs can be used as a boot drive in the MP5,1 and MP6,1 with the latest firmware installed (beginning with version 140.0.0.0.0 for MP5,1 and...

forums.macrumors.com

There is a lot of reports about various SSD's in that thread. It goes back quite far so you probably want to focus on the last 6 months. I do not think the list in the first post is up to date. Samsung 980 Pro is ok as I recall (I am using a 1TB 980 Pro). If you get one be sure the check the firmware is the most recent version.

First post of the stickie thread PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI is always update. Samsung 980 and 990 are not there because of the several firmware problems and incompatibility with PCIe v2.0.

Edit: just added to the table, without details, to make it completely clear of the issues happening with 980/980 PRO/990 PRO.

 

[cubemusic]

Thank you all!

So as it seems it´s neither the Samsung PM9A3 MZ1L23T8HBLA-00A07 nor the OWC 4.0TB OWC Aura P12 Pro
(couldn´t find them in the list).

So I think I will go for the Sabrent Rocket q (550 Euros) or the Corsair MP400. The latter is even more expensive, but nevertheless... I can get the Corsair from Amazon for 699 Euros. But I didn´t get its notice in the table:

Phison E125 controller
depending on blade size, from random 190 000 read to random 710 000 write

Means what? These are only fawlty shown values or does it mean, the SSD isn´t stable?

 

[steve123]

just added to the table, without details, to make it completely clear of the issues happening with 980/980 PRO/990 PRO.

Should probably update that post to indicate there is a firmware update available for the 980 Pro that fixes an endurance problem. If I am not mistaken, I think there are several reports in the thread of the 980 Pro working well.

 

[tsialex]

Should probably update that post to indicate there is a firmware update available for the 980 Pro that fixes an endurance problem. If I am not mistaken, I think there are several reports in the thread of the 980 Pro working well.

There are loads of reports around the net of blades failing even with the updated firmware, so the current firmware update is not a complete solution.

While 980 PRO "works" fine if you have a PCIe v3.0/v4.0 switched card or a MacPro7,1, when you install it on a MacPro5,1 or MacPro6,1 with just a dumb adapter, it fails frequently when you wake from sleep or do warm reboots, I have both the 980 and 980 PRO here and the issue with PCIe v2.0 is extremely annoying.

For a MacPro5,1 or a MacPro6,1 without a PCIe switched adapter, the best Samsung blade that is bigger than 1TB is still the 970 EVO Plus 2TB.

 

[mikas]

Phison E125 controller
depending on blade size, from random 190 000 read to random 710 000 write

Means what? These are only fawlty shown values or does it mean, the SSD isn´t stable?

I made that entry, that's a short version taken from Toms HW:

The 2TB drive has been in use for over a year, close to two years now if I remember it right.
It's not as endurant as some other drives, maybe because it's a QLC drive. And not the most performant either, but depending on use case maybe it doesn't matter that much.

I bought it because it was the only 2TB blade available in the shop at the moment.

 

[cubemusic]

Ok, thank you all again.

I just ordered the Sabrent Rocket q. It´s QLC also but let´s see how it performs. I will get back to report.

 

[steve123]

MacPro6,1 with just a dumb adapter, it fails frequently when you wake from sleep or do warm reboots, I have both the 980 and 980 PRO here and the issue with PCIe v2.0 is extremely annoying.

Do you have a link to the info about the PCIe Gen 2 incompatibility? I would like to understand more about what is going on.

 

[tsialex]

Do you have a link to the info about the PCIe Gen 2 incompatibility? I would like to understand more about what is going on.

Just see the numerous users reporting it on the MacPro forum or in the main PCIe NVMe, you won't find much more info about this issue elsewhere since most people installing a NVMe blade to a PCIe v2.0 motherboard are MacPro5,1 or MacPro6,1 users. Not much PCIe v2.0 motherboards that have native NVMe support, besides maybe one or two high-end X58 boards and some recently made chinese motherboards with old/used Intel PCIe v2.0 chipsets/PCHs.

Also forgot another thing, several users reported that the 980/980 PRO blades are being identified as x2 instead of x4 or 2,5GTs instead of 5GT/s when using dumb adapters connected to PCIe slots 3 and 4, like this one below:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/pcie-ssds-nvme-ahci.2146725/post-30831167

 

[CodeJingle]

While 980 PRO "works" fine if you have a PCIe v3.0/v4.0 switched card or a MacPro7,1, when you install it on a MacPro5,1 or MacPro6,1 with just a dumb adapter, it fails frequently when you wake from sleep or do warm reboots, I have both the 980 and 980 PRO here and the issue with PCIe v2.0 is extremely annoying.

Sorry, that's my bad. I forgot the internal hard drive is over PCIe 2. Although the Mac Pro 6,1 CPU has PCIe 2 and PCIe 3 lanes, the platform controller C602J connects to the CPU over PCIe 2, and the internal hard drive connects directly to the platform controller. Although the Thunderbolt controllers, which is where you would plug in external drives, are also all over PCIe 2.

Agreed, your best bet will be an older generation of SSD. The current generation of PCIe 4 SSDs guarantee PCIe 3 backward compatibility but make no guarantee that PCIe 2 will work. Theoretically, PCIe 2 should also work but you know how real life differs from idealism.