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digitalcuriosity

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2015
677
289
I worked for a very large corporation and we had a major high-tech vendor (for whom we were the largest customer) come in and show us their road map under an NDA. We bought into it and incorporated their products into the large (multi-billion dollar) system we were developing for NATO. The vendor never followed through on their road map. I see road maps as zero-value "promises" that you had best not count on.
I don't know about large companies and how they think about buying computers, but from my own experience working in many companies and seeing what they were using, i found they almost 100% are using a computer running Windows.

In 2011 i bought a Mac Book Pro and tried getting used to using it, i never found it was anywhere close as simple as using my other computers running Windows.
 
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sparksd

macrumors G3
Jun 7, 2015
9,964
33,959
Seattle WA
I don't know about large companies and how they think about buying computers, but from my own experience working in many companies and seeing what they were using, i found they almost 100% are using a computer running Windows.

In 2011 i bought a Mac Book Pro and tried getting used to using it, i never found it was anywhere close as simple as using my other computers running Windows.

This was a specialized military system and for a variety of reasons Windows was not an option (I was System Architect).
 

SnyG

macrumors 6502
Nov 6, 2017
464
802
Liverpool, UK
Reliability, sure. Those of us who purchased a 10.5 last year can tell you that resale value ain't what it used to be. The market is saturated with tablets. The "obscene" pricing is because Apple can't sell as many tablets as they once did, so they've got to go up by, what was it 30%(?) in order to maintain the bottom line. If the Surface Pro is cheaper and meets more of your needs than an iPad, why wouldn't you buy it?

Furthermore, my 10.5" developed the bright spot above the home button that so many other people have had one month out of its warranty, so unfortunately it joins my old bend-ridden iPhone 6 in the reliability stakes.
[doublepost=1543519838][/doublepost]
Rumor has it iOS 13 is bringing some big changes to iOS

Why spend over a grand on something now on the basis of rumours about things that might possibly be improved in a software update almost a year later?
 
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digitalcuriosity

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2015
677
289
This was a specialized military system and for a variety of reasons Windows was not an option (I was System Architect).
When i first worked in an Engineering company, we had to punchcards take them to a IBM Main Frame System have them feed to it along with other peoples cards, then the next day if lucky got our printed copy of computer data.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,931
3,681
Given this list, and the other mention of external drive access, I'm confused why you want an iPad for all this. It doesn't seem like a tablet would be the best tool for deeply nested folders, or two spreadsheets side by side, e.g.

It sounds like you just want a laptop but without a keyboard, or a detachable keyboard? To run out-of-date software?

You call these office-tasks, but the iPad strikes me as a decidedly non-office device.

I have multiple high-end laptops. That is not the point. The issue is that the iPad is extremely close to being a full featured device, that continues to be hamstrung with these ridiculous and artificial limitations. Why shouldn’t I be able to compare two documents side by side on an iPad? Why can’t the File browser hold my position, sync full folders from any cloud service automatically or have text selection tools that work? I want to use an iPad sometimes because it is the smallest, lightest computer I have with the best battery life, the least administration and maintenance overhead, and it can do all sorts of things that a laptop cannot. It is on the one hand the most forward thinking computer made, yet you are saying that I should have to carry an entire additional laptop computer with me because these really basic features don’t work. That’s ridiculous.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
11,184
Philadelphia, PA
Given this list, and the other mention of external drive access, I'm confused why you want an iPad for all this. It doesn't seem like a tablet would be the best tool for deeply nested folders, or two spreadsheets side by side, e.g.

It sounds like you just want a laptop but without a keyboard, or a detachable keyboard? To run out-of-date software?

You call these office-tasks, but the iPad strikes me as a decidedly non-office device.

Agree here. Not sure why anyone would want to force tasks that are better suited for a traditional laptop or desktop, to an iPad. In my opinion, in it's current state, iOS is not suited for operational tasks like this.
 

richpjr

macrumors 68040
May 9, 2006
3,763
2,594
Agree here. Not sure why anyone would want to force tasks that are better suited for a traditional laptop or desktop, to an iPad. In my opinion, in it's current state, iOS is not suited for operational tasks like this.

This is still missing the point. The way iOS is right, I agree 100% that it is not suited for tasks like this. But adding the ability to have 2 documents open at the same time, or read/write access to external drives, or any of the other items mentioned earlier would in any way interfere with using the tablet as a pure tablet, but it would allow it to be much more useful for other people. Right now, I have no choice but to bring both devices with me if I need to do anything other than check email for work. But for certain things I could easily do them on the iPad with some enhancements to iOS.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,931
3,681
Agree here. Not sure why anyone would want to force tasks that are better suited for a traditional laptop or desktop, to an iPad. In my opinion, in it's current state, iOS is not suited for operational tasks like this.

The iPad is a fantastic device for document review. Far better than a traditional laptop in many ways. Why shouldn’t it allow you to compare documents side by side, or give you better tools for managing files? With minor tweaks the iPad could be a really powerful computer replacement. Instead I have to carry a laptop along most of the time because these really simple tasks can’t be done effectively in iOS.
 

JohnnyGo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 9, 2009
956
620
I guess this discussion has veered into what a computer is vs what an iPad is / should/ could be.

Back in the day, no one understood what a computer was useful for except nerds like Woz, SJ, Bill and others. The so called computer clubs crowd. Then Visicalc came along (spreadsheets) and everyone understood why computers could be useful in every desk.

Tablets like the iPad came as a response to how most people (not all) use their computers: browse the internet, do some online shopping, consume content, interact with their social networks, even check their email (so last century). Even programmers and professionals use their computers, in part, to do the same things.

Granted, one can argue that these tasks can be performed perfectly on smartphones these days, with their large screens (remember SJ saying 4” was good enough) and fast LTE connections. People use more messaging apps and less email. Conversations are short (no one writes more than 140 characters in a sentence these days).

If your “work” is occupying less and less of your computer time (you are a director/supervisor/regional head) and the other “consumer” uses are occupying more your PC these days, than you’re a candidate to substitute your PC with an iPad imo.

What Apple is preaching is that even for some work (photography, video editing, writing, etc) the iPad can also be your “work” device aka a “computer” and not only a consumption tablet.

To use SJ’s analogy: there will always be trucks, but some of us can do with smaller vehicles. The PC offload most but not all of the workload from mainframes. The iPad will chip away at the PC workloads as time goes by. Digital and SG (silicon graphics) bet that the PC was not powerful enough and that the software was lacking. They went the way of the Dodo while Microsoft mopped the floor and became the most valuable company.

But it takes time. We’re all used to the PC workflow, our mouse/trackpad, our ESC keys, etc... but in time, tablet like devices will replace traditional PCs (desktops/laptops) first in high mobility areas, than in more traditional areas. But some PCs will remain and continue to be useful for some workloads, no doubt about it.
 

willentrekin

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2013
236
170
US
I have multiple high-end laptops. That is not the point. The issue is that the iPad is extremely close to being a full featured device, that continues to be hamstrung with these ridiculous and artificial limitations. Why shouldn’t I be able to compare two documents side by side on an iPad? Why can’t the File browser hold my position, sync full folders from any cloud service automatically or have text selection tools that work? I want to use an iPad sometimes because it is the smallest, lightest computer I have with the best battery life, the least administration and maintenance overhead, and it can do all sorts of things that a laptop cannot. It is on the one hand the most forward thinking computer made, yet you are saying that I should have to carry an entire additional laptop computer with me because these really basic features don’t work. That’s ridiculous.

I'm not saying you should carry an additional laptop computer with you. I'm saying you should carry a laptop computer because the iPad wasn't designed to do what your work requires you to do, so it's really not the right tool to use.

It's like you have a flat-head screwdriver and a butter knife and you're complaining because you can't drive home a screw and spread butter over bread with both.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
11,184
Philadelphia, PA
The iPad is a fantastic device for document review. Far better than a traditional laptop in many ways. Why shouldn’t it allow you to compare documents side by side, or give you better tools for managing files? With minor tweaks the iPad could be a really powerful computer replacement. Instead I have to carry a laptop along most of the time because these really simple tasks can’t be done effectively in iOS.

Document review is fine. I saw spreadsheets and immediately thought of trying to create, edit, or manipulate spreadsheets via Excel - not a good task for an iPad. I have no issue with Apple implementing the ability to have the same app side by side. My only point is that the iPad isn't great for operational tasks - repetitive data entry that is better suited for use with a mouse.
[doublepost=1543524608][/doublepost]
This is still missing the point. The way iOS is right, I agree 100% that it is not suited for tasks like this. But adding the ability to have 2 documents open at the same time, or read/write access to external drives, or any of the other items mentioned earlier would in any way interfere with using the tablet as a pure tablet, but it would allow it to be much more useful for other people. Right now, I have no choice but to bring both devices with me if I need to do anything other than check email for work. But for certain things I could easily do them on the iPad with some enhancements to iOS.

I don't disagree with any of your points. I do think such features should be and will be implemented at some point. I am just saying the iPad isn't great for operational tasks that are better suited for a traditional PC and mouse.
[doublepost=1543524665][/doublepost]
Then maybe Apple shouldn't have ran adverts asking what a computer is.

I am not sure what that has to do with me stating that the iPad is not great for operational tasks. There are a lot of things a computer can be used for. I use an iPad as my primary computer, but don't use it for operational tasks that are better suited for a traditional PC.
 
Last edited:

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,931
3,681
I'm not saying you should carry an additional laptop computer with you. I'm saying you should carry a laptop computer because the iPad wasn't designed to do what your work requires you to do, so it's really not the right tool to use.

It's like you have a flat-head screwdriver and a butter knife and you're complaining because you can't drive home a screw and spread butter over bread with both.

It's not nearly that clear-cut. It feels more like I have this really awesome new screwdriver, but it really only works well with Apple's new screw-head design. When they could easily have made it compatible with both. 5 years ago I would have been more in agreement. The iPad was solidly in the 'accessory to a laptop' camp. Today, it is so close to being able to replace that laptop for many tasks, and it simply feels like Apple continues to make really basic tasks overly difficult just because.

Document review is fine. I saw spreadsheets and immediately thought of trying to create, edit, or manipulate spreadsheets via Excel - not a good task for an iPad. I have no issue with Apple implementing the ability to have the same app side by side. My only point is that the iPad isn't great for operational tasks - repetitive data entry that is better suited for use with a mouse.
[doublepost=1543524608][/doublepost]

For basic spreadsheet editing, Excel is actually quite usable on the iPad today. The main limitations remain around file access issues and the multiple simultaneous documents.
 

digitalcuriosity

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2015
677
289
I remember when the first computers running Windows arrived in our Engineering Dept. before this they ran Dos command line or Dos programs, my Boss told me i want you to learn to use this new system, i asked him are you also going to use it he replied no this is why i have people like you.
Had i known back then he was really doing me a great favor and not demeaning me as he thought.
 

DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
11,184
Philadelphia, PA
It's not nearly that clear-cut. It feels more like I have this really awesome new screwdriver, but it really only works well with Apple's new screw-head design. When they could easily have made it compatible with both. 5 years ago I would have been more in agreement. The iPad was solidly in the 'accessory to a laptop' camp. Today, it is so close to being able to replace that laptop for many tasks, and it simply feels like Apple continues to make really basic tasks overly difficult just because.



For basic spreadsheet editing, Excel is actually quite usable on the iPad today. The main limitations remain around file access issues and the multiple simultaneous documents.

Oh yea, it's definitely usable. I just find that any extensive data creation or manipulation via Excel/spreadsheets is very tedious. My point is that it isn't necessarily the best tool for the job, not that it can or can't be done.
 

zhenya

macrumors 604
Jan 6, 2005
6,931
3,681
Oh yea, it's definitely usable. I just find that any extensive data creation or manipulation via Excel/spreadsheets is very tedious. My point is that it isn't necessarily the best tool for the job, not that it can or can't be done.

Yup. I don't expect the iPad to always be the best tool for some of these jobs - for some of them I simply want it to be good enough. Much like how our phone cameras are still not a DSLR, what's more important is that they are always with us and fill the need most of the time.

Honestly file access remains my #1 complaint with the iPad. I could pretty much live with every other limitation, but unless you are willing to commit to working 100% in iCloud drive, or maybe Dropbox, and probably don't require perfect offline availability, it's just not possible to do much on an iPad without major headaches in working around the File access limitations.
 

digitalcuriosity

macrumors 6502a
Aug 6, 2015
677
289
When i look at my iPads and other computers i think back to around 1965, a man living next door in California, he brought over a small black box with small red lights, and a bunch of switch's.
I asked just what is it he replied snapping a few switch's, it's a computer said what is a computer.
I forget what he said but am sure i did not understand a single word.
I think around 1971 i bought my first computer an Apple II.
 

willentrekin

macrumors regular
Jun 12, 2013
236
170
US
It feels more like I have this really awesome new screwdriver, but it really only works well with Apple's new screw-head design.

Nice way to reposition that analogy. I definitely get what you're saying better. It sounds like it's frustration that it can almost do exactly what you want, but just can't yet.

I'd say maybe in another year, but I wonder how much access Apple wants to give the file system for most users. It's like how there's only one processor option for the new Air, or how the only thing you can really customize on iPhones is color and storage.

The dilemma is sometimes that the more control you keep of the end-user experience, the greater you'll have to limit elements to get there.
 
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secretk

macrumors 65816
Oct 19, 2018
1,494
1,228
Nice way to reposition that analogy. I definitely get what you're saying better. It sounds like it's frustration that it can almost do exactly what you want, but just can't yet.

I'd say maybe in another year, but I wonder how much access Apple wants to give the file system for most users. It's like how there's only one processor option for the new Air, or how the only thing you can really customize on iPhones is color and storage.

The dilemma is sometimes that the more control you keep of the end-user experience, the greater you'll have to limit elements to get there.

I honestly don't get their desire for control. It's like they have lost the balance. It's one thing to want to make sure that your end users have good user experience with the device you sell them. It's completely different to control the system so much to actually set it back. Having access to the file system can be done in a way where the control is still in Apple. Hell they can make it even only with their files app and restrict other apps. This way they will still have the control.
 

Fthree

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2014
1,313
506
Have two spreadsheets or two word documents open side by side.

Have good access to the file sharing service that our company uses. (Yes, this is partially because their app is not as up to date as other services, but this is also an iOS problem - my access to files depends on multiple independent developers updating their apps).

Easily zip/unzip files. (Again, possible, but I need yet again, another file manager app to do this)

Select text reliably and easily. Even without a mouse I'd be happy if the text selection worked reliably. It does not. Sometimes the cursor disappears entirely. Often you can't select the last couple of characters of a row. When you switch quickly between apps, the app in focus may lose the cursor or lose the cursor position.

Know, without a doubt, that my work is not going to be flushed from a web page because iOS decided it needed that RAM for something else.

Link directly to a deeply nested folder. Every time I switch apps and need to work from that folder I need to navigate through the entire folder hierarchy.

These are just a few things from very simple office-tasks that I've attempted in the last few days alone.
and for you may i suggest a MacBook.
 
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DNichter

macrumors G3
Apr 27, 2015
9,385
11,184
Philadelphia, PA
Yup. I don't expect the iPad to always be the best tool for some of these jobs - for some of them I simply want it to be good enough. Much like how our phone cameras are still not a DSLR, what's more important is that they are always with us and fill the need most of the time.

Honestly file access remains my #1 complaint with the iPad. I could pretty much live with every other limitation, but unless you are willing to commit to working 100% in iCloud drive, or maybe Dropbox, and probably don't require perfect offline availability, it's just not possible to do much on an iPad without major headaches in working around the File access limitations.

Yea I agree. I’d love for tasks like that to be less cumbersome, but I’m in on iPad for the long term and I’m willing to wait. File access can be frustrating at times, but i purchased a QNAP NAS a few years back and it’s been a huge help in the transition. I use it to manage all my personal files as it integrates directly with the Files app. I also download torrents from my iPad directly onto the server and run Plex and Homebridge too. The set up is about $400, but it’s been great and allowed me to use just an iPad and iPhone now for work.
 
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Cricketman

macrumors 6502
Nov 30, 2008
267
92
I'm an apple fanboy through and through. I have given them tens of thousands of dollars at this point. I am finding it really difficult to justify the apple tax these days. When I had to upgrade my laptop last year (don't spill coffee on your laptop guys) it hurt to cough up $1,500 for a laptop with decent storage (and still 8GB ram). When I upgraded to the X last year, I felt insanely guilty spending more than $1,000 on a phone. I was excited to be on ATT Next/Apple yearly upgrade but I do not think I will update until for at least 3 years with my X. I was tempted by the new Apple Watch, especially the stainless steel version. But when the price was touching high three figures, I came to the conclusion that my aluminum series 1 was good enough for me (and I don't wear it that much anyway). I love the new iPad but the price is again touching $1,000 with the keyboard folio. I can't justify it.

Apple is a great company, makes wonderful products, and innovate constantly. I just think I am being priced out. It's not their fault really, clearly whatever they are doing is working for them. I still don't see myself switching to other manufacturers, but I do think I will be keeping my products longer and maybe buying used in the future. It's just better value.
 
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