Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Malus120

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 28, 2002
696
1,455
Looks like the Digital Foundry video about MetalFX is up

Well that is an interesting take. MFX Perf is spatial upscaling while quality is temporal. Not sure I am a fan of Capcom just going quarter resolution for the upscaling (in both modes).

The Digital Foundry review was illuminating as expected.

While their analysis confirms a lot of what I initially observed (quality mode is a temporal upscale achieving near native quality with a >50% performance uplift, performance mode is basically unusable), I found several things quite surprising:

1. Quality mode is achieved with a 4x upscale! That the quality is able to rival (and in some cases exceed) native 4K with a 1080P internal resolution is quite impressive indeed. I had assumed they were working with an internal res of at least around 1440P to get a result like this.

2. Disocclusion seems to be handled well (at least in this game), which is great news as this is something FSR 2.x can struggle with, but transparencies and hair need (a lot) of work vs the competition. Overall it seems comparable in quality to similar techniques (DLSS, FSR, XeSS) aside from the aforementioned weakness but as DF said, more datapoints (games) are needed.

3. The performance uplift for a 4x upscale is a little bit less impressive than one might expect. It seems like MetalFX Temporal Upscaling, at least in its current implantation has a significant frame time cost.

4. Performance mode is using the spatial upscaler (🤢). All the image breakup had me thinking it was just a really bad/low res temporal upscale but nope. This explains the poor quality (especially rendering from 1/4 res.) I honestly don't see the point of this when the Apple's temporal upscaler can achieve such great results at 4x. Even a 5-6x scale should give better results than this, and its already blown it out of the water by just quality mode at lower resolution.

6. The resolution issues people were speculating about (saying Mac 4K doesn't match PC 4K) didn't merit a mention in DF's video. While I'm not saying that's definitive proof it's a non issue, I think given that DF pixel counted a wide variety of scenes, I'm inclined to believe that if there is a difference in image quality it's likely related to the way the game is rendered on macOS (perhaps Metal is missing a feature, implements something in a way which impacts the final result) and not the actual number of pixels the Mac version is rendering. IMHO, it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

Overall a VERY strong first showing for MetalFX's temporal upscaler, and a real boon for Apple Silicon gaming.
The port itself is, as they note, less impressive (albeit serviceable). Performance isn't in line with what we'd expect given the GPU power available and shader compilation stutter is unfortunately still present (just like the PC version) despite Apple offering API's to avoid this :/

I think the main question now is how committed Apple is to continuing to develop and improve MetalFX. DLSS and FSR are constantly improving and have made huge strides in perceptual resolution, dealing with transparencies, disocclusion, fine detail (hair, fences, wires.) MetalFX Temporal Upscaling is an excellent first effort, but if left to rot will quickly become less impressive compared to the competition.

The future looks like it could be bright. I'm excited to see how No Man's Sky and RE Village Gold Edition DLC (Shadows of Rose, 3rd person mode, etc) hold up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: alex00100 and Homy

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,622
11,294
Too bad games that will have MetalFX support will unlikely ever have competing hardware agnostic open source upscaling like FSR and XeSS since Apple probably won't allow it. Otherwise, FSR 2.1 is looking pretty good in Gotham Knights at 4K max graphics with fast frame rates. It also has XeSS for comparison.

Gotham Knights 11_13_2022 9_54_54 PM - Copy.png
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
Too bad games that will have MetalFX support will unlikely ever have competing hardware agnostic open source upscaling like FSR and XeSS since Apple probably won't allow it. Otherwise, FSR 2.1 is looking pretty good in Gotham Knights at 4K max graphics with fast frame rates. It also has XeSS for comparison.

What do you mean "Apple won't allow it"? FSR is under an open source license. Go port it to Metal and use it however you please.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
Resident Evil Village already uses a bunch of AMD tech in it on the Mac like AMD FidelityFX CACAO for ambient occlusion
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,664
OBX
What do you mean "Apple won't allow it"? FSR is under an open source license. Go port it to Metal and use it however you please.
IIRC BG3 uses FSR on the Mac port. I don't remember if it is 1.0 or 2.0 though.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,438
2,664
OBX
The Digital Foundry review was illuminating as expected.

While their analysis confirms a lot of what I initially observed (quality mode is a temporal upscale achieving near native quality with a >50% performance uplift, performance mode is basically unusable), I found several things quite surprising:

1. Quality mode is achieved with a 4x upscale! That the quality is able to rival (and in some cases exceed) native 4K with a 1080P internal resolution is quite impressive indeed. I had assumed they were working with an internal res of at least around 1440P to get a result like this.

2. Disocclusion seems to be handled well (at least in this game), which is great news as this is something FSR 2.x can struggle with, but transparencies and hair need (a lot) of work vs the competition. Overall it seems comparable in quality to similar techniques (DLSS, FSR, XeSS) aside from the aforementioned weakness but as DF said, more datapoints (games) are needed.

3. The performance uplift for a 4x upscale is a little bit less impressive than one might expect. It seems like MetalFX Temporal Upscaling, at least in its current implantation has a significant frame time cost.

4. Performance mode is using the spatial upscaler (🤢). All the image breakup had me thinking it was just a really bad/low res temporal upscale but nope. This explains the poor quality (especially rendering from 1/4 res.) I honestly don't see the point of this when the Apple's temporal upscaler can achieve such great results at 4x. Even a 5-6x scale should give better results than this, and its already blown it out of the water by just quality mode at lower resolution.

6. The resolution issues people were speculating about (saying Mac 4K doesn't match PC 4K) didn't merit a mention in DF's video. While I'm not saying that's definitive proof it's a non issue, I think given that DF pixel counted a wide variety of scenes, I'm inclined to believe that if there is a difference in image quality it's likely related to the way the game is rendered on macOS (perhaps Metal is missing a feature, implements something in a way which impacts the final result) and not the actual number of pixels the Mac version is rendering. IMHO, it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

Overall a VERY strong first showing for MetalFX's temporal upscaler, and a real boon for Apple Silicon gaming.
The port itself is, as they note, less impressive (albeit serviceable). Performance isn't in line with what we'd expect given the GPU power available and shader compilation stutter is unfortunately still present (just like the PC version) despite Apple offering API's to avoid this :/

I think the main question now is how committed Apple is to continuing to develop and improve MetalFX. DLSS and FSR are constantly improving and have made huge strides in perceptual resolution, dealing with transparencies, disocclusion, fine detail (hair, fences, wires.) MetalFX Temporal Upscaling is an excellent first effort, but if left to rot will quickly become less impressive compared to the competition.

The future looks like it could be bright. I'm excited to see how No Man's Sky and RE Village Gold Edition DLC (Shadows of Rose, 3rd person mode, etc) hold up.
Yeah it is a boon for sure, especially since MetalFX is on iOS and iPadOS as well.

I think the DF video insinuated that RE:Village isn't that GPU heavy without RT turned on, and some folks would argue that the RT the game does have is waaay lighter compared to others (like Metro Exodus).

I am excited to see No Man's Sky. I am going to have to think about if I want to buy it on MAS assuming it will be exclusive to that store.
 

Malus120

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 28, 2002
696
1,455
Yeah it is a boon for sure, especially since MetalFX is on iOS and iPadOS as well.

Indeed, the point about MetalFX being available on iOS and iPadOS (and presumably eventually tvOS) along with macOS is an important one that'd I'd actually forgotten.

Assuming MetalFX Temporal Upscaling can deliver a similar level of visual quality and performance uplift on iPhone class hardware it should quickly become a core piece of the iOS game development stack for developers around the world. This has important implications for the kinds of experiences that can be delivered on iOS devices, means there will be no shortage of people familiar with Metal/MetalFX when it comes to AAA ports for Mac, and also makes it much more likely that Apple will continue to invest in its development (whereas if it was Mac only I could see it languishing for years without updates.)

I think the DF video insinuated that RE:Village isn't that GPU heavy without RT turned on, and some folks would argue that the RT the game does have is waaay lighter compared to others (like Metro Exodus).
I didn't get that impression. It's true that RE:Village is fundamentally a cross generation release (PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series S/X, PC, Mac) and thus can be run on a wide range of hardware (scales down well GPU wise,) but that doesn't mean that it doesn't take a good deal of GPU grunt to run the game at high resolutions and frame rates with high settings.
As far as the RT goes, I don't even think it's an argument to say that it's less demanding (and also less well optimized) than RT showcase titles like Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition, Control, Cyberpunk. It's definitely one of the simpler, more subtle implementations.

I am excited to see No Man's Sky. I am going to have to think about if I want to buy it on MAS assuming it will be exclusive to that store.
I don't really mind the exclusivity. I understand it turns a lot of people off (no one wants to pay more/buy twice), but I can't imagine the era of getting the Mac version of AAA titles for "free" with the PC version on Steam was very profitable for porting houses.
Companies are going to want to recoup development costs if they're going to take the time to port to Mac. Hopefully, the large number of Apple Silicon devices in circulation eventually makes this a non issue and we can see Mac games return to Steam/other platforms.

As for NMS itself, I haven't played it but I'm interested, probably won't get it at release as I have a large backlog ATM...
 
  • Like
Reactions: diamond.g

hoo-man-b-ing

Cancelled
Mar 13, 2022
116
111
I think the main question now is how committed Apple is to continuing to develop and improve MetalFX.

Two years ago I would have guessed that Apple would continue its relatively comfortable pace with improving Metal. However, with realityOS and related hardware expected to come to market in the next couple of years, rapidly iterating on Metal/MetalFX could prove wildly beneficial, especially since the devices are likely to be thermally constrained to passively cooled (e.g., M2) SOCs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Malus120

Malus120

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Jun 28, 2002
696
1,455
Two years ago I would have guessed that Apple would continue its relatively comfortable pace with improving Metal. However, with realityOS and related hardware expected to come to market in the next couple of years, rapidly iterating on Metal/MetalFX could prove wildly beneficial, especially since the devices are likely to be thermally constrained to passively cooled (e.g., M2) SOCs.
That actually makes a lot of sense. While I was really happy with the reveal of MetalFX (and Metal 3 in general) I was also caught completely off guard. It really felt like it came totally out of left field.

That said color me a bit... skeptical...? of a lot of the rumors surrounding Apple's AR headset. Passively cooled M2s? That you're wearing on your heard? And they're supposed to deliver a convincing AR experience while remaining comfortably cool? In 2023!? It all just sounds waaaaaay too good to be true...

Then again, Apple generally avoids bringing things to the market until they're ready for mass adoption so maybe Apple really has done it (won't be cheap though, that's for sure), or people are just piecing together info based on what they're trying to do rather than what's actually being achieved in the lab / prototyping ATM...
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,521
19,674
That actually makes a lot of sense. While I was really happy with the reveal of MetalFX (and Metal 3 in general) I was also caught completely off guard. It really felt like it came totally out of left field.

You think so? I can't say I was too surprised. They have been heavily investing in gaming APIs for a while. The scale of new offerings was quite impressive though, here I fully agree.

That said color me a bit... skeptical...? of a lot of the rumors surrounding Apple's AR headset. Passively cooled M2s? That you're wearing on your heard? And they're supposed to deliver a convincing AR experience while remaining comfortably cool? In 2023!? It all just sounds waaaaaay too good to be true...

Let's not forget that Apple also has another trick up their sleeve: variable rate rasterisation. They can apply a kind of a "fish eye" transform to the render target, increasing the resolution at a focal point and decreasing it elsewhere. Combine it with an eye tracker and you can deliver high quality rendering where it matters while maintaining much smaller render target that you would need otherwise. Add to it other bandwidth-saving techniques like automatic texture compression etc. and one could in principle extract quite a lot of performance from M2-class hardware for AR/VR applications.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Homy

mi7chy

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2014
10,622
11,294
Resident Evil Village already uses a bunch of AMD tech in it on the Mac like AMD FidelityFX CACAO for ambient occlusion

Time will tell if it continues to be split into Steam games that have FSR, XeSS, etc. vs Apple app store walled garden that's MetalFX only.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
Time will tell if it continues to be split into Steam games that have FSR, XeSS, etc. vs Apple app store walled garden that's MetalFX only.
MetalFX is open for anyone to use. You can put it into a game and distribute it however you like, even on Steam. There are no limitations.

The main reason we aren't seeing FSR and XeSS in Metal games is because they're not ported to Metal.

Both FSR and XeSS are open source though, so if you wanted to port either to Metal (for whatever reason) you could.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.