Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.

[NT1440]

Putting aside the fact that there is an easy workaround to this requirement, we’d be talking 7 or 8 years plus at least 5 additional years of Windows 11 support (probably much longer).

Yes, putting aside the registry hacks to bypass TPM 2.0….

🙄

Come on now, your computer doesn’t stop working because it’s not getting updated. My personal machine is a 2015 MBP, works fine but hasn’t received a full OS upgrade in years. Still gets security updates too.

So your issue is that Apple *labels* a machine as obsolete but it’s still functional?

 

[staypuftforums]

You could also have easily bought a PC with a processor that doesn't support the Windows 10/11 TPM and CPU feature set requirements.

Buy old generation hardware that has been announced as EOL, get short term support.

There is not one PC on the market that was produced in 2019 that cannot run Windows 11. Not a single example.

 

[nathansz]

Very easy to bypass TPM requirement, by the way. It’s more a technicality.

same with goes for running current OS on older Macs. it's more a "technicality"

We’re talking a bare minimum of an extra 5 years of full OS updates.

You don't know that

Bottom line if that you can buy a Windows PC today and be reasonably sure you’ll be able to run it into the ground before needing a new one. We’re talking 10 years, 15 years, even 20 years.

With Apple, you only get to use it safely as long as Apple tells you that you can, which will be an arbitrary timeframe.

same goes for windows or macOS here

microsoft will decide how long you get support, you can run the PC another 20 years if you want, as you can with a Mac, but you probably won't be able to do much of anything with it. have you tried going online with a pentium 4 or a PPC chip?

 

[nathansz]

There is not one PC on the market that was produced in 2019 that cannot run Windows 11. Not a single example.

you could absolutely still buy a Kaby Lake PC in 2020

 

[staypuftforums]

Yes, putting aside the registry hacks to bypass TPM 2.0….

🙄

Come on now, your computer doesn’t stop working because it’s not getting updated. My personal machine is a 2015 MBP, works fine but hasn’t received a full OS upgrade in years. Still gets security updates too.

So your issue is that Apple *labels* a machine as obsolete but it’s still functional?

No registry hacks required. You just burn the ISO using a program called Rufus and it removes TPM requirement for you. Simple point and click stuff.

But I’m putting that aside, as it requires the user to do something.

My issue is that my modern, fast computer with a 4K display can’t be used safely 2 years from now because Apple would prefer I buy a new one (that I don’t want or need).

 

[dmccloud]

Many times the cut off for operating system updates on older hardware doesn’t make sense because many times it isn’t about specs.

It’s also a business argument. Why continue to make software updates when those software updates are free and mean that’s one less customer buying a new Mac.

The decision on whether or not to support certain products often is about specs - whether it's CPU clock speed, features baked into the CPU itself, or the presence of a TPM module (in the case of Windows 11). The fact of the matter is that software often evolves at a faster pace than hardware, so certain features needed by the new software are not even present in older hardware. You also see this with respect to gaming and GPUs. For example, the latest Indiana Jones game requires a GPU with ray tracing support, which eliminates a large number of otherwise capable systems from even running the game.

But in the very near future Apple will be coming up against environmental issues that just cannot be wished away anymore.

Their devices have increasingly become less user serviceable and upgradable.

I predict there will come a point where they may officially allow Linux versions to be run on older hardware and recycling schemes where they will effectively be made to take back devices to avoid e waste filling landfills.

Apple already recycles products in all of its stores, even devices not made by Apple. This is not a new development, as Apple has been doing this for years.

Not true on the Dell Workstation. Microsoft has rowed back on that.

Microsoft Dropping the TPM 2.0 Requirement for Windows 11 - PC Outlet

Microsoft has made a significant change to its Windows 11 upgrade policy. The company now allows users to install Windows 11 on systems that do not meet the

pcoutlet.com

Despite what that website claimed in December, Microsoft's website today still states TPM 2.0 is required to run Windows 11 in multiple places. There is no mention of TPM 1.2 at all.

 

[nathansz]

My issue is that my modern, fast computer with a 4K display can’t be used safely 2 years from now because Apple would prefer I buy a new one (that I don’t want or need).

what model is your "modern, fast computer" exactly?

 

[dmccloud]

I always enjoy reading the comments on these topics... so many people still hail Apple as a company that can do no wrong, but luckily it's just the people inside this MacRumors bubble.

Support for Macs is honestly just bad. Very capable machines get cut off of updates which wouldn't be that much of a problem if the browser that comes with it (safari) could be updated individually. But no, Apple for some insane reason decided to link safari to the OS. Causing many people to have to download another browser which most of the time have a negative impact on these Macs which were mostly sold with a low amount of RAM.

It's insane that a company claiming to be green, or at least focused on becoming green, is fine with just letting these devices become e-waste. While with all their internal documentation it wouldn't even be that hard to support these systems for way longer, OpenCore does it without any official documentation.

At least Apple isn't dumping sub-$300 laptops on the market at back to school and holiday season that are borderline useless out of the box. That's a significantly bigger contributor to e-waste than anything Apple may have done.

 

[staypuftforums]

same with goes for running current OS on older Macs. it's more a "technicality"



You don't know that



same goes for windows or macOS here

microsoft will decide how long you get support, you can run the PC another 20 years if you want, as you can with a Mac, but you probably won't be able to do much of anything with it. have you tried going online with a pentium 4 or a PPC chip?

Surprisingly, PCs powered by the Pentium 4 are still being supported by Windows 10.

 

[cjsuk]

The decision on whether or not to support certain products often is about specs - whether it's CPU clock speed, features baked into the CPU itself, or the presence of a TPM module (in the case of Windows 11). The fact of the matter is that software often evolves at a faster pace than hardware, so certain features needed by the new software are not even present in older hardware. You also see this with respect to gaming and GPUs. For example, the latest Indiana Jones game requires a GPU with ray tracing support, which eliminates a large number of otherwise capable systems from even running the game.



Apple already recycles products in all of its stores, even devices not made by Apple. This is not a new development, as Apple has been doing this for years.



Despite what that website claimed in December, Microsoft's website today still states TPM 2.0 is required to run Windows 11 in multiple places. There is no mention of TPM 1.2 at all.

Worth noting that it's not just the TPM thing. There's also early x86-64 ISA are not supported.

7th gen Intel is not officially supported. 5th gen are problematic.

 

[staypuftforums]

what model is your "modern, fast computer" exactly?

It’s right in the original post.

A 2019 4K iMac.

Runs exactly the same as the day I unboxed it.

 

[nathansz]

Surprisingly, PCs powered by the Pentium 4 are still being supported by Windows 10.

again, windows 10 support ends oct 2025

 

[russell_314]

It has no competition in the macOS sector.

this is not how that works. Every company has no competition with their own brand of product. Microsoft has no competition in the Windows sector. Mountain Dew has no competition in the Mountain Dew sector.

 

[nathansz]

It’s right in the original post.

A 2019 4K iMac.

Runs exactly the same as the day I unboxed it.

seeing as how apple has moved on to a completely different architecture, one might argue that by definition that is not a modern computer

regardless, if you get two more years of support (you might not, x86 could be killed this year or next) you will have gotten 8 years of support

this is longer than the 5 years of support you would have gotten from Microsoft buying a Kaby lake computer in 2020

 

[Realityck]

I wouldn’t blame Apple for “small” support cycles, tho it is often more than 7 years. But I would blame software product companies for pushing this so-called planned obsolescence. Just take a look at gaming companies, there are almost no new games that will run smoothly with videocard older than 4 years. Moreover, game marketplaces often have their own system requirements too. Both Steam and GoG have long dropped Windows 7 support despite offering Windows 7/XP/2000/98/95 games. With GoG you at least can download standalone installer since DRM-free is in their DNA, but with Steam it is often much more complicated. I.e. it is easier to pirate sometimes if you wanna play some ancient game than fiddle with installing newer Windows version just for Steam to work

Yes the video card requirements certainly impact what you can play. Biggest changes were the differences of Nvidia 3000 series to 4000 series. It causes trade in values of older gaming PCs to plummet.

 

[NT1440]

No registry hacks required. You just burn the ISO using a program called Rufus and it removes TPM requirement for you. Simple point and click stuff.

But I’m putting that aside, as it requires the user to do something.

My issue is that my modern, fast computer with a 4K display can’t be used safely 2 years from now because Apple would prefer I buy a new one (that I don’t want or need).

Yes, Rufus is prepackaging a hack. Just because you aren’t the one doing it doesn’t mean you’re not actively working around a security requirement MS put in place.

I can buy a flipper zero and unlock a Toyota, that doesn’t mean I’m not bypassing security.

 

[russell_314]

For as long as the software can run.

2012 era Macs can run Sequoia reasonably well (and that's just off the back of hobbyists, it would run better with official support).

I've said it a million times before, but if Apple actually wants to care for the environment, extending the life of their devices through proper long term software support would be a good place to start.

This doesn’t make sense and no one does this. My thing is if you want a company to do something or expect a company to do something it has to be reasonable. If I want Coca-Cola to start pouring the soda in my mouth so I don’t have to hold the can then I need to show a beverage company that does that. It’s easy to make this wish without it being sustainable. Sure I would want that, but I don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation based on what is going on now. In ten years will soda company start offering a service to pour the drink in your mouth? Maybe


I have a Windows 98 PC that runs flawlessly. It can run any software that was supported for it, but it’s no longer supported by Microsoft. It runs like the day it came out of the box. Should Microsoft still support it? I don’t think that’s reasonable.

If there is a reasonable argument that they should support their hardware with software updates for a 15 years for example example then someone needs to explain how this works and at least show an example of a company doing it. so far, no one‘s been able to even remotely show how this would be feasible.

 

[staypuftforums]

seeing as how apple has moved on to a completely different architecture, one might argue that by definition that is not a modern computer

regardless, if you get two more years of support (you might not, x86 could be killed this year or next) you will have gotten 8 years of support

this is longer than the 5 years of support you would have gotten from Microsoft buying a Kaby lake computer in 2020

Now you’re just playing games. Late 2022 to 2027 is not 8 years. And Kaby Lake was released in early 2017, meaning it got roughly 9 full years of official support from Microsoft.

 

[staypuftforums]

If there is a reasonable argument that they should support their hardware with software updates for a 15 years for example example then someone needs to explain how this works and at least show an example of a company doing it. so far, no one‘s been able to even remotely show how this would be feasible.

How it would be feasible: Apple releases security updates just as they do now, but just include an extra 1-2 operating system versions. Quite possibly the most feasible thing imaginable.

Example of a company doing this: Microsoft.

 

[nathansz]

Late 2022 to 2027 is not 8 years

you said you had a 2019 imac

And Kaby Lake was released in early 2017, meaning it got roughly 9 full years of official support from Microsoft.

Kaby Lake was produced in to 2020, so you could buy a brand new PC in 2020 (probably later than that on sale) and have gotten only 5 year of support

 

[nathansz]

Example of a company doing this: Microsoft.

again, once October comes, the oldest PCs officially supported by Microsoft will be 8 years old

some PCs as "new" as 5 years old will no longer be supported

 

[russell_314]

A PC purchased in 2009 could still be running up to date Windows 10 today. That’s 16 years of support.

A PC purchased in 2017 will lose support this year. That’s 8 years of support. Yes, you can find examples of longer support, but I can also find examples of significantly shorter support cycles from Microsoft. Think about all those PCs that were released with Windows Vista that barely run the OS new. How long do you think those PCs stayed up and running? Just because something officially gets a certain period of support doesn’t mean it’s actually going to be useful for that term.

Very easy to bypass TPM requirement, by the way. It’s more a technicality.

This is not official support. You can do this on macOS too.

Bottom line if that you can buy a Windows PC today and be reasonably sure you’ll be able to run it into the ground before needing a new one. We’re talking 10 years, 15 years, even 20 years.

You can also do this on Mac. There are people with 2012 Mac mini’s using them today.

With Apple, you only get to use it safely as long as Apple tells you that you can, which will be an arbitrary timeframe.

And this is the same with Microsoft. The only company I can think of for transparent long-term support is Google. Google Chrome is supported for 10 years. Not from when you buy the device or when the device is made. It’s from when that model of device was first sold. You can easily get into a situation where you buy a new Chromebook that only has three years of support left.

 

[staypuftforums]

again, windows 10 support ends oct 2025

again, PCs thatwere released 25 years ago are still being supported by Microsoft.

Nobody is claiming the machines receive infinite support.

 

[staypuftforums]

again, once October comes, the oldest PCs officially supported by Microsoft will be 8 years old

some PCs as "new" as 5 years old will no longer be supported

again, PCs as old as 25 years are still being supported today. You are trying to use a once-ever issue as if it is the default when you now it is not.

Furthermore, you can continue to receive updates for $30 per year direct from Microsoft if you choose. So at least people have the option. Apple offers no such thing.

 

[russell_314]

How it would be feasible: Apple releases security updates just as they do now, but just include an extra 1-2 operating system versions. Quite possibly the most feasible thing imaginable.

I’m not saying it’s not possible but you seem to be all over the place here. You mentioned 10+ years of support now you’re saying one to two operating system versions so that’s 1 to 2 years. That would mean 8 to 9 years not 10+.

Example of a company doing this: Microsoft.

Microsoft does not consistently support hardware with software updates for 10+ years. I can easily find examples of hardware going out of support at 8 years. I’m sure if I looked I could find shorter periods.