Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.

[Madhatter32]

Ideally, Apple should do what Firefox does -- that is, provide an extended life version for older hardware that is limited feature wise but still gets securities updates. This would give people a reason to upgrade but still allows Apple to support its customer base. This would also support the resale market.

 

[heretiq]

I got a great deal on eBay and it was a huge upgrade over what I owned at the time, which was an AMD Athlon CPU from the Windows 7 era.

Sounds like you were an informed buyer and got a great deal.

 

[Realityck]

Especially considering these machines are sometimes sold direct from Apple for 2 or more years between updates. Mac Mini went 4 years between updates at one time.

And then there’s Apple’s refurbished store, which is currently selling iMacs that were released in 2021. You buy it today and possibly only get 3 years of security updates.

Plus we have the used market to consider, where you can pick up an “obsolete” machine that is still perfectly usable (but not supported by Apple).

And yes I know you could switch to a different operating system (at least with Intel machines), but that defeats the whole purpose of owning a Mac.

Maybe the EU can take care of this. No doubt this creates far more e-waste than the USBC/lightning port fiasco ever did.

Restrict new OS versions to newer machines. I’m fine with that. It’s refusing to provide basic security updates that is the main issue here.

It’s purely your choice to not update your older Mac, but with the current M4 based Mac Mini or the M4 based Air prices, why still complain about not updating because some particular older Mac seem unattractive because no more security updates? Now you can run crossover (wine based windows 11) on a M4 based Mac as an alternative to hanging onto an older Intel Mac.

 

[williamofockham]

I have the feeling that there are many quoting dire straits want their money nothings, get your chicks for free. yes I wish my Mercedes 190 sl was still in original condition, but entropy wins.

 

[wanha]

I think 10 years minimum, for basic security updates. Restrict features all you want. Restrict new OS versions too. But the machine should be usable for a minimum of 10 years from first day of release.

Some machines purchased direct from Apple refurbished store might only get 3-4 years of use, and then become paper weights.

I bought my 2019 iMac towards the end of 2022. It might be obsolete and no longer supported by Apple only 2 years from now. It’s bordering on fraud, in my opinion.

The downside of being forced to support old hardware for even longer is that A LOT changes in technology in a decade, and the requirement to keep supporting very old devices that have a fraction of the memory or computing power of new ones (and in some cases will run on completely different architecture) makes it a massive burden and hinderance to developing new devices, features, form factors, and use cases.

Obviously, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but I think it helps the discourse if we're all aware of the potential tradeoffs.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

I don’t even understand the complaint, Apple has supported their computers and mobile devices with security updates for far longer than seven years in recent history.
The iPad Air2 was released in October 2014 and just received a security update two months ago, 11 years later, in 2025.
The latest update of macOS, Sequoia, supports the 2017 iMac Pro from eight years ago. Assuming Apple keeps their security update policy the same as they have in the past, it should receive updates until 2027, maybe even 2028.
And we have absolutely no idea how long Apple Silicon computers are going to be supported for, but the first M1 Macs are almost 5 years from introduction and probably are not losing any support anytime soon.
The 2015 Apple TV HD, still receives the latest software updates to this day. As does the original A8 based HomePod. And the 7 years old iPhone XR and XS.
The competition still cannot match, Google and Samsung have been promoting up to seven years of android updates on their more recent phones, but importantly this *has not* came to pass yet. One thing is certain though, Google and Samsung phones from seven years ago are *not* still being supported with software updates, and haven’t been for several years.
The Windows comparison is basically irrelevant, it might be *technically* possible to install the latest version of Windows on a computer from 2009, but it is certainly not what Microsoft intends you to do.

 

[smirking]

Obviously, a line needs to be drawn somewhere, but I think it helps the discourse if we're all aware of the potential tradeoffs.

I absolutely like this middle of the road thinking. This sort of discussion is frustrating because I'm pretty sure nearly all of us believe both sides of this conversation. The side we land on only depends on the context.

Being a developer, I can sympathize with the pain of supporting old software. On the other hand, I prefer to hang onto my older tech, but that doesn't stop me from being in favor of USB-C ports.

It's complicated.

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

I think this thread is ridiculous. That said, my absurdly over priced and built like tanks washing machine and dryer have a 20 year parts guarantee.

Understandable, but under that logic in 2025, Apple would still have to be providing parts repair for the PowerBook G4 and the PowerMac G5 in 2025, along with the first generation iPod shuffle, the second generation iPod mini, the first iPod nano… devices where components for them have long ago stopped production. There were likely companies and manufacturers involved with the creation of those products that don’t even exist today.

 

[smirking]

Understandable, but under that logic in 2025, Apple would still have to be providing parts repair for the PowerBook G4 and the PowerMac G5 in 2025, along with the first generation iPod shuffle, the second generation iPod mini, the first iPod nano… devices where components for them have long ago stopped production. There were likely companies and manufacturers involved with the creation of those products that don’t even exist today.

I'd also be surprised if that 20 year parts warranty is as ironclad as it may have sounded. The supply chain for an old washer and dryer is a lot less volatile than one for a laptop computer, but even in that case there are parts that are no longer available.

Unrealistic warranties always have an escape clause to cover the company if things change. At best, they'll offer to send you an equivalent replacement (that probably will no longer have a 20 year parts warranty).

 

[attohs]

In what sense is it "ridiculous" then?

Every machine capable of running Windows 7 can run Windows 10 today.

You are not only asking Apple to extend their support, but also all of their suppliers. If you want a Windows 10 PC, then get a Windows 10 PC.

Running windows 10 does not mean the drivers are still supported or the device itself is still supported. You can install windows 10 on Intel Macs, by the way.

 

[attohs]

That’s pretty impressive that it has 20 parts guaranteed but I suspect labor is going to be triple what the part cost. Speed queen?

That’s the one! I am very impressed. I try to fix my own stuff, so parts availability matters most to me. I’ll hopefully be avoiding labor costs.

 

[weckart]

The products don’t self destruct and can still be used. After 7 years Apple deems them ‘obsolete’ (by then you are 7 generations behind on the CPU), in which case you typically cannot upgrade to the latest OS. In my experience there are still security updates that follow for about 3 more years. For a total of 10 years give or take a year. Trust me, you don’t want to be using a 10 year old computer.

Posting this on a 13 year old Mac Mini running Sequoia. Why wouldn't I want to be using this? Not everyone is going to be running GByte databases or earthquake modelling. For my use case, it does everything I want with aplomb. That might change in a few years with the performance advances of AS processors but as of now, this is crying wolf.

 

[nathansz]

You can also run Linux on a Mac, there's Asahi Linux which runs natively.

Only on m1 and m2

unless something has changed on that front?

 

[nathansz]

In what sense is it "ridiculous" then?

Every machine capable of running Windows 7 can run Windows 10 today.

windows 10 support ends October 2025, at that point you will need a pc with a TPM 2.0 chip for official windows support, which means the oldest supported chips will be 7 or 8 years old

 

[weckart]

Most appliances come with a one or two year warranty. When you look at it that way, seven years is pretty good.

I agree. However, most appliances are a once only cost. With computers, you buy software, peripherals etc. It's more than just a single-purpose appliance.

 

[staypuftforums]

I bought a new Nintendo DSi on eBay in 2021... they stopped producing those in 2012. Don't just rely on whether the product is new or used, do actual research on what you're buying. If you did, you would have known that Macs typically only get 7 to 8 years of security updates.

“Doing research” doesn’t address Apple’s lack of support in any way.

Just a total non-argument.

 

[staypuftforums]

windows 10 support ends October 2025, at that point you will need a pc with a TPM 2.0 chip for official windows support, which means the oldest supported chips will be 7 or 8 years old

Putting aside the fact that there is an easy workaround to this requirement, we’d be talking 7 or 8 years plus at least 5 additional years of Windows 11 support (probably much longer).

 

[Tubamajuba]

“Doing research” doesn’t address Apple’s lack of support in any way.

Just a total non-argument.

I guarantee you wouldn't be here complaining if you did your research. Plenty of people have already shown that 7-8 years is pretty reasonable, you disagree... so you should probably buy a Windows machine next time you're looking for a computer.

 

[nathansz]

Putting aside the fact that there is an easy workaround to this requirement

There are workarounds to run macOS on older machines as well. I thought your complaint was about official support

plus at least 5 additional years of Windows 11 support (probably much longer)

this is only a guess at best

 

[Arctic Moose]

tiny minority? Everyone I know who owns MacBooks and iMacs from around 2012-1015 are insanely annoyed by Apple just cutting support.

Yes, tiny minority. The number of people who still use a Mac from 2015 or earlier, and also care that they are not getting the latest and greatest, are an irrelevant fraction of Apple's user base.

 

[staypuftforums]

I assume you're saying that because your proposal isn't that different from what they do now.

Of course, that also makes the converse true: Since what they do now isn't that different from your proposal, that means what they're doing now is likewise reasonable by your standards.

Note also this isn't free for them; it costs them money to maintain security support. Plus Apple themselves have said the security support they offer during the two year extension isn't as complete as what's offered on newer OS's. And I suspect it would get more incomplete as the computer gets older.

Hence Apple may not want to offer that extra year or two of security support, if it's not up to their standards, since they don't want this to mislead customers into thinking their machine is decently-protected when it's not.

Again, not saying it wouldn't be nice to have them extend it to a decade. But I don't know how much of their decision not to do so is purely economic for Apple, and how much if it is practical. Probably a combination of the two.

Come now, "paperweight" is hyperbole.

Older machines can continue to be perfectly functional. In addition to my 2019 i9 iMac and 2021 16" M1 MacBook Pro, I also have a 15" 2014 MacBook Pro that I use frequently to sync my iPod and also when I want to go mobile and would prefer something lighter than the 16" M1.

You do see how there’s a significant difference between my computer getting security support for another 2 years compared to another 4 years, yes? It’s twice as long a period of time.

Going from 8 years to 10 years doesn’t sound that big if you purchase your device on day 1. But for people who buy devices later, it can be the difference between only 1-2 years of support and 3-4 years.

 

[staypuftforums]

There are workarounds to run macOS on older machines as well. I thought your complaint was about official support

That’s why I said “putting aside”.

 

[staypuftforums]

OK, so Windows 10 is pretty much end of life as of this year for regular consumers.

So Windows 11 still technically requires the TPM 2.0 whatever but let’s say we’re going to hack that even though that’s unsupported we’re just we’re going to pretend that doesn’t exist.

Then we hit with hardware requirements, which is basically what Apple is doing for their operating systems. All the documentation I can see for Microsoft says 8th gen Intel processor or newer. That means August 2017 or newer. So by that math, it appears Microsoft is supporting about 8 years back. A little bit better than what Apple is doing, but not quite 10 years.

You aren’t factoring in all the years of support these PCs will receive with Windows 11 (and possibly 12, 13, etc.)

We’re talking a bare minimum of an extra 5 years of full OS updates.

A PC purchased in 2009 could still be running up to date Windows 10 today. That’s 16 years of support.

Very easy to bypass TPM requirement, by the way. It’s more a technicality.

Bottom line if that you can buy a Windows PC today and be reasonably sure you’ll be able to run it into the ground before needing a new one. We’re talking 10 years, 15 years, even 20 years.

With Apple, you only get to use it safely as long as Apple tells you that you can, which will be an arbitrary timeframe.

 

[nathansz]

That’s why I said “putting aside”.

so why mention it at all?

 

[uacd]

I wouldn’t blame Apple for “small” support cycles, tho it is often more than 7 years. But I would blame software product companies for pushing this so-called planned obsolescence. Just take a look at gaming companies, there are almost no new games that will run smoothly with videocard older than 4 years. Moreover, game marketplaces often have their own system requirements too. Both Steam and GoG have long dropped Windows 7 support despite offering Windows 7/XP/2000/98/95 games. With GoG you at least can download standalone installer since DRM-free is in their DNA, but with Steam it is often much more complicated. I.e. it is easier to pirate sometimes if you wanna play some ancient game than fiddle with installing newer Windows version just for Steam to work