Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.

[Lounge vibes 05]

A PC purchased in 2009 could still be running up to date Windows 10 today.

The key word is *could*. A Windows computer from 2009 *could* technically still be used and up-to-date. That does not mean that it is normal, recommended, officially supported, expected, or will be done by the vast majority of consumers.
Iirc OCLP for macOS technically supports Macs going all the way back to 2007. Does that mean that someone should still be using a 2007 iMac as their main computer in 2025, even if it’s technically supported? No!
Also, I don’t know any windows computer that you could literally open right out of the box, never upgrade yourself and still be running the latest software in 2025.

 

[AlixSPQR]

Especially considering these machines are sometimes sold direct from Apple for 2 or more years between updates. Mac Mini went 4 years between updates at one time.

And then there’s Apple’s refurbished store, which is currently selling iMacs that were released in 2021. You buy it today and possibly only get 3 years of security updates.

Plus we have the used market to consider, where you can pick up an “obsolete” machine that is still perfectly usable (but not supported by Apple).

And yes I know you could switch to a different operating system (at least with Intel machines), but that defeats the whole purpose of owning a Mac.

Maybe the EU can take care of this. No doubt this creates far more e-waste than the USBC/lightning port fiasco ever did.

Restrict new OS versions to newer machines. I’m fine with that. It’s refusing to provide basic security updates that is the main issue here.

Won't this increase the prices even more? Apple shareholders want their profit.

 

[Fuzzball84]

The decision on whether or not to support certain products often is about specs - whether it's CPU clock speed, features baked into the CPU itself, or the presence of a TPM module (in the case of Windows 11). The fact of the matter is that software often evolves at a faster pace than hardware, so certain features needed by the new software are not even present in older hardware. You also see this with respect to gaming and GPUs. For example, the latest Indiana Jones game requires a GPU with ray tracing support, which eliminates a large number of otherwise capable systems from even running the game.



Apple already recycles products in all of its stores, even devices not made by Apple. This is not a new development, as Apple has been doing this for years.



Despite what that website claimed in December, Microsoft's website today still states TPM 2.0 is required to run Windows 11 in multiple places. There is no mention of TPM 1.2 at all.

Wrong, the decision whether or not to support products is about cost. You can support a product made 20 years ago. But if there is no demand and not financially feasible, it’s not going to happen.

Technical capability, ie specs, is only one of a number of criteria for support. And at its core is cost. Can the business make money out of this; is it worth it?

 

[philipma1957]

I’ll bite…

How long should Apple support their hardware?

nine or ten. with offer of up to five years complete apple care.

1 year stock
3 year upgrade
5 year top of the line

 

[staypuftforums]

The key word is *could*. A Windows computer from 2009 *could* technically still be used and up-to-date. That does not mean that it is normal, recommended, officially supported, expected, or will be done by the vast majority of consumers.
Iirc OCLP for macOS technically supports Macs going all the way back to 2007. Does that mean that someone should still be using a 2007 iMac as their main computer in 2025, even if it’s technically supported? No!
Also, I don’t know any windows computer that you could literally open right out of the box, never upgrade yourself and still be running the latest software in 2025.

My 2011 Acer ran Windows 10 the same as my 2019 iMac does.

Hardware failure is a totally different issue. The whole topic is software support of a machine that *can* run flawlessly.

 

[nathansz]

I am giving you concrete examples of Microsoft supporting hardware that is 25 years old

please give us a concrete example of Microsoft supporting 25 year old hardware

again, once October comes, the oldest PCs officially supported by Microsoft will be 8 years old

some PCs as "new" as 5 years old will no longer be supported

 

[nathansz]

My 2011 Acer ran Windows 10 the same as my 2019 iMac does.

Hardware failure is a totally different issue. The whole topic is software support of a machine that *can* run flawlessly.

your 2011 acer is not officially supported by current windows 10

current windows 10 support goes back to Broadwell, which is 2015

windows 10 support ends in October

so 10 years support. not 25 years that's for sure

 

[Lounge vibes 05]

again, PCs thatwere released 25 years ago are still being supported by Microsoft.

Nobody is claiming the machines receive infinite support.

You are literally moving the goal posts as you try to make your point.
First, it was 2019 PCs, then it was 2009 PCs, and now it’s PCs made 25 years ago.
I’d like to know exactly which PC from the year 2000, that hasn’t been modified at all and/or upgraded, can be directly moved from Windows 98 to Windows 10. Tell me. Give me an exact computer model, and exact desktop, and exact laptop, from 25 years ago.

 

[zftg]

Microsoft is in the business of selling OSes. Apple is in the business of selling hardware.

That said, you have solutions to the problem you complain about:
1. Install OpenCore. I'm running the latest MacOS on a 2012 Mac mini, no problem. OpenCore supports Mac as far back as 2007.
2. It's an Intel iMac, you can just install Windows.
3. Install Linux.

Getting modern OSes running (with workarounds) isn't a hard problem to solve. Even if Apple supplied "just security patches" to the 10-year old OS, I suspect you'd complain that it won't run any newer programs.

A bigger problem IMO are companies like printer companies. Try getting your 8 year old printer to run on a modern OS. They don't make/update drivers. And printers have a much longer usable lifespan than a computer.

 

[NT1440]

I’m sorry, but you are just outright lying at this point, so no real reason to engage with you any further.

I am giving you concrete examples of Microsoft supporting hardware that is 25 years old and you’re like “Apple does that too!”.

No they sure as hell don’t. Complete waste of time if you aren’t willing to stick to reality.

You seem to have a very soft definition of “support”. Can you clarify what you mean?

 

[staypuftforums]

your 2011 acer is not officially supported by current windows 10

current windows 10 support goes back to Broadwell, which is 2015

Looks like my machine was actually made in 2009 (Athlon X2 215).

Runs Widnows 10 with security updates and feature updates until the end of this year.

 

[staypuftforums]

You seem to have a very soft definition of “support”. Can you clarify what you mean?

Operating system continues to receive security updates.

 

[NT1440]

Operating system continues to receive security updates.

So which 25 year old OS from Microsoft is still doing security updates? Apologies if I’m conflating that number with another poster, this thread is all over the place.

Also worth noting, Apple has patched critical security flaws in discontinued OS’s in recent years as well.

 

[staypuftforums]

Getting modern OSes running (with workarounds) isn't a hard problem to solve. Even if Apple supplied "just security patches" to the 10-year old OS, I suspect you'd complain that it won't run any newer programs.

I haven’t ever complained about that and never would.

I do expect my PC that is otherwise in perfect condition to be safely usable for more than the next 2 years however.

 

[staypuftforums]

So which 25 year old OS from Microsoft is still doing security updates? Apologies if I’m conflating that number with another poster, this thread is all over the place.

Also worth noting, Apple has patched critical security flaws in discontinued OS’s in recent years as well.

Windows 10 can run on Pentium 4 PCs, which were released 25 years ago.

The issue is supporting hardware with software security updates.

Can I use my machine safely as it was intended to be used, without workarounds? All I want is basic barebones security updates for a machine in perfect working order than does everything a typical user would expect in 2025.

 

[russell_314]

I’m sorry, but you are just outright lying at this point, so no real reason to engage with you any further.

Quote what I said, that was a lie. If I made a mistake on something I said, I will absolutely correct myself.

nine or ten. with offer of up to five years complete apple care.

1 year stock
3 year upgrade
5 year top of the line

Are you talking about Apple selling support with AppleCare? I’m not crazy about having continuous updates connected to some sort of extra purchase though.

 

[philipma1957]

nine or ten. with offer of up to five years complete apple care.

1 year stock
3 year upgrade
5 year top of the line

i would love a five year apple care option for my new mac studio.

i know it is good enough for my usage case for 5-7 years time so having a longer apple care option would be good.

i found that if you buy a higher end apple unit they work well enough to still use. 7 years later. heck i was using a 2014 model until a blackout killed it two months ago

 

[zftg]

I haven’t ever complained about that and never would.

I do expect my PC that is otherwise in perfect condition to be safely usable for more than the next 2 years however.

That sounds like a lack of research on your part. You bought a product that didn't do what you wanted and then complained after you bought it. 🤷‍♂️

Security patches don't make something useful. Just because apple patches security flaws in SSLv1 doesn't mean websites the require SSLv2 will work. So I'm not sure what you're actually getting with "support". Unless there are a bunch of old Macs being hacked daily (there aren't).

What "problem" is actually solved by getting security patches for a 10-year old OS? (Real problems, not hypothetical ones)

 

[staypuftforums]

That sounds like a lack of research on your part. You bought a product that didn't do what you wanted and then complained after you bought it. 🤷‍♂️

Knowing about an issue doesn’t resolve the issue.

“Apple should offer X."

“You should have KNOWN Apple does not offer X!!!"

Like I said before, a total non-argument.

I’m criticizing the policies of a multi-trillion dollar company. One that claims to be “totally greeeeeenz!!!"

 

[zftg]

Knowing about an issue doesn’t resolve the issue.

“Apple should offer X."

“You should have KNOWN Apple does not offer X!!!"

Like I said before, a total non-argument.

A non-argument? You're demanding 10-year support from a company that has never offered it and then yelling that they should offer it, 7 years after you bought the product? lol. It's like yelling at Ford because Hyundai offers a 10 year warranty.

In any case, you don't actually want to solve the problem of "using your computer safely". Apple is notoriously slow for patching vulnerabilities, so if that is your standard, you should just stick to Linux. But you're just trolling at this point. Have a good one.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Maybe the EU will come to the rescue again

They’d first have to raise their current software support requirement from 5 years. As of now, Apple’s support is longer than the EU requires.

 

[staypuftforums]

A non-argument? You're demanding 10-year support from a company that has never offered it and then yelling that they should offer it, 7 years after you bought the product? lol.

I bought the computer in late 2022, brother. It’s been less than 3 years.

And yes, it is a total non-argument. Like saying I can't complain about US health care system because “I should have known how it worked”.

OK… I’ll never follow that line of thinking, which could apply to just about any problem on earth.

Don’t like toxins being dumped into the water supply? “You should have KNOWN companies would do that. You have no right to complain!!!"

 

[nathansz]

Windows 10 can run on Pentium 4 PCs, which were released 25 years ago.

The issue is supporting hardware with software security updates.

Can I use my machine safely as it was intended to be used, without workarounds? All I want is basic barebones security updates for a machine in perfect working order than does everything a typical user would expect in 2025.

you are really playing with some serious bs now


you can say that windows 10 can run on pentium 4

and you can say that pentium 4 pc's were releases 25 years ago (though they came out in November so not 25 years yet)

BUT, current windows 10 does not officially support any Pentium 4 CPU

You would have go run windows 10 1809, which is from 2018

there is literally not a single CPU from 25 years ago that can run windows 10

the oldest CPUs that can actually run current windows 10 are core 2 duos from 2008

admittedly 17 years is pretty good, but its not 25 years, and honestly those are going to hardly be usable for any modern software

 

[cubbie5150]

🤷‍♂️ Vote with your wallet. That's all I've got. Apple won't be shamed into changing this.

 

[TVreporter]

My issue is that a perfectly awesome personal computer may turn into a paperweight clump of e-waste 2 years from now for no reason other than Apple's planned obsolescence strategy.

The computer doesn’t stop working just because it can no longer do OS updates.

What are you doing on it to be so concerned about security?