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pvanberlo

macrumors member
Jul 25, 2012
50
31
The Netherlands
Would you really be willing to boot into an OS that is 5-10 times slower than your current notebook? Because that is the reality of an emulated OS. The advantage of using a VM to run Windows on Arm is that the OS is native while still allowing translated Win32 and x64 Windows apps to run at reasonable speeds.

There was a company many years ago called Transmeta that did whole OS translation in hardware and software at runtime that performed relatively poorly in general but still much faster than just doing emulation. Maybe some company can revive that technology. It was long enough ago that the patents have probably run out.
Yes - I would. I don't necessarily care about having ultimate performance when running x86 emulation, it just needs to work in case things need to be tested for x86. But I'm not too worried about the performance I guess, yes emulation will take a hit, but it's effectively being done now with Rosetta2 as well. That seems to fair pretty well. Of course emulating a whole OS is a different story, but I fully expect that nowadays, especially with the performance claims made about M1 (and potentially even better performance with future Apple silicon), things would be fairly workable.

What it boils down to is that Apple is effectively (but not unsurprisingly) crippling enterprises, and the one I work for uses at least 4000-5000 MacBook Pros, ARM on its own is an issue already but Rosetta helps there I guess, but it won't solve all the cases where there will be engineers running around who use virtual machines to demonstrate specific products which require x86 operating systems and so on.

So for now, all I can hope for is that either Parallels or VMware, although, they both seem to rely on the hypervisor available in macOS nowadays - so I guess it's Apple in the end - will come up with a solution for these things.
 
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pldelisle

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2020
2,248
1,506
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
So for now, all I can hope for is that either Parallels or VMware, although, they both seem to rely on the hypervisor available in macOS nowadays - so I guess it's Apple in the end - will come up with a solution for these things.
Using Apple Hypervisor API is mandatory now with Apple Silicon. That’s why everything is delayed at VMware and Parallels. This way, the software uses internal software and hardware optimization (probably virtualization ISA built-in Silicon)
 
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jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
Yes - I would. I don't necessarily care about having ultimate performance when running x86 emulation, it just needs to work in case things need to be tested for x86. But I'm not too worried about the performance I guess, yes emulation will take a hit, but it's effectively being done now with Rosetta2 as well. That seems to fair pretty well. Of course emulating a whole OS is a different story, but I fully expect that nowadays, especially with the performance claims made about M1 (and potentially even better performance with future Apple silicon), things would be fairly workable.

What it boils down to is that Apple is effectively (but not unsurprisingly) crippling enterprises, and the one I work for uses at least 4000-5000 MacBook Pros, ARM on its own is an issue already but Rosetta helps there I guess, but it won't solve all the cases where there will be engineers running around who use virtual machines to demonstrate specific products which require x86 operating systems and so on.

So for now, all I can hope for is that either Parallels or VMware, although, they both seem to rely on the hypervisor available in macOS nowadays - so I guess it's Apple in the end - will come up with a solution for these things.
Then QEmu might meet your needs right now. It is very slow but can emulate an x86_64 (AMD64) CPU already. You might take a look and see how long it takes just to boot modern Windows. You might change your mind. I haven’t done it or seen a demonstration but I’d be very curious as to the speed on an M1.
 
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gank41

macrumors 601
Mar 25, 2008
4,350
5,022
Then QEmu might meet your needs right now. It is very slow but can emulate an x86_64 (AMD64) CPU already. You might take a look and see how long it takes just to boot modern Windows. You might change your mind. I haven’t done it or seen a demonstration but I’d be very curious as to the speed on an M1.
I had Windows XP running on my iPad using UTM and it worked as well as you'd expect WinXP to work. Better than I expected.. We might not have the ability to allocate a ton of RAM to a VM now on M1 (at the moment, anyway), but I've been allocating 4 cores per VM as opposed to 2 and Windows 10 and Ubuntu both run GREAT. If they can get x86_64 emulation going, I'm sure the ability to increase cores and still allocate 4GB of RAM will make up for any hit on performance.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,451
I don't really care about Windows ARM, the bigger question is, will we get a way to also run x86 machines.
Well, Apple Silicon will never be able to run x86 natively, so whatever solution you choose, it will involve emulation or translation. Bottom line is that if you really need native x86 and old-school Windows, you need an x86 machine.

Windows for ARM has x86 emulation, and it is getting better (64 bit support has just launched) and is always likely to be more efficient than emulating the entire OS.

Failing that, it looks like you'll probably have QEMU/UTM for x86 emulation, at least.

* Apple will keep selling Intel systems for a while longer; I'm sure however this will stop at some point
Well you have a couple of years before you are forced to change, and a lot of water will pass under the bridge before then.

The M1 is a potential industry changer, and although it probably won't end with Apple ruling the world, it is a huge credibility boost for non-Intel processors and code translation that could help Windows-on-ARM become more mainstream. The idea of having a RISC-like processor that relies on software to translate legacy x86 code is not new - both the Intel Itanium and Transmeta Crusoe tried that and failed years ago - M1 and Rosetta have shown that it can work well. Then, "modern" Windows apps - and many Android apps - compile to bytecode rather than x86 binaries (afaik not quite transparently portable yet, but well on the way). Not to mention the increasing importance of "web apps" which are generally processor independent.

* Run your systems in the cloud or via an on-premise virtualization environment; which is a valid option, but cloud is already out due to security restrictions

I think a lot of people will find that one flipped on it's head in the near future: you'll have to use the cloud or VPN into your workplace network because of "security restrictions" (or to be more accurate, due process, accountability and record keeping for backside-covering purposes when the inevitable breach happens). The current pressure for remote working will help there. Seriously, which is less secure? (a) Local copies of data scattered over multiple users' desktop PCs and laptops that can be left on trains, reliant on each individual user's security practices - or (b) a cloud server protected by strong encryption, every connection monitored, no databases leaving the system, managed backup, archiving and deletion services, any user can be instantly blocked if a breach is suspected... and, better still, outsourced to a specialist provider who you can sue if there is a breach at their end...

Yes, performance might suck, but hey, the new M1 socs are super powerful and outperform Intel chips, right...?

What is in Apple's best interest? Make the best MacOS machine possible - or compromise on that so that the Mac can also be a rather expensive 90% compatible Windows PC? While Intel were making the best chips (and IBM/Motorola weren't delivering the PPC chips Apple needed), they could easily do both - indeed they could hardly stop it: I don't recall Apple ever promising the ability to run Windows until a bunch of hackers worked out how to do it, and Parallels/VMWare were third-party developments.

Now Intel aren't delivering the chips that Apple need, and Apple are in a position to reap the benefits of making the best processor (for Macs) themselves. Some eggs will get broken to make that omelette.

Windows-on-ARM virtualisation looks like it is going to happen unless MS blocks it, and between that, QEMU and (likely) remote Windows-on-cloud services will meet the needs of a lot of people who are obliged to use some Windows software for work. I suspect that will be enough for Apple, for whom encouraging Mac users to run Windows is, to say the least, a two-edged sword.

(...and ARM Linux has its own momentum irrespective of Apple Silicon, and is already far better developed than Windows-on-ARM - the Mac could find a new niche in a world where there are plenty of ARM-based servers but no nice ARM laptops for developers, although I suspect that will become less and less CPU-dependent as well).
 
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markcres

macrumors 6502
Mar 30, 2006
321
313
UK
Radical suggestion for Apple:
Bring out a computer with BOTH an M1 processor AND and Intel processor !
Sounds ridiculous??
Most support components could be shared (memory, storage power, comms etc) - but if Windows is running (Bootcamp or Parallels) it could 'divert' to a backup Intel chip...otherwise use the Apple Silicon.
 
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09872738

Cancelled
Feb 12, 2005
1,270
2,125
Radical suggestion for Apple:
Bring out a computer with BOTH an M1 processor AND and Intel processor !
Sounds ridiculous??
Most support components could be shared (memory, storage power, comms etc) - but if Windows is running (Bootcamp or Parallels) it could 'divert' to a backup Intel chip...otherwise use the Apple Silicon.
Right. That would draw all advantages of ASi irrelevant and impose engineering challenges impossible to solve. Makes no sense whatsoever
 

pldelisle

macrumors 68020
May 4, 2020
2,248
1,506
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Radical suggestion for Apple:
Bring out a computer with BOTH an M1 processor AND and Intel processor !
Sounds ridiculous??
Most support components could be shared (memory, storage power, comms etc) - but if Windows is running (Bootcamp or Parallels) it could 'divert' to a backup Intel chip...otherwise use the Apple Silicon.
That’s one of the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this forum.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,451
Bring out a computer with BOTH an M1 processor AND and Intel processor !
Sounds ridiculous??

A computer with ARM and Intel? Completely and utterly ridiculous....


risc_pc.jpg
risc_pc_2.jpg
risc_pc_3.jpg

Worked well at the time - Windows 3.1 alongside RiscOS (there was even a software module that let you use the 486DX's floating point unit from ARM code - lack of hardware floating point was the ARM700's kryptonite, otherwise it thrashed the 486)

I daren't power it up - I'm sure there would be a fusillade of exploding caps and a scream of hard drives with square bearings.
 

madscene

macrumors newbie
Jan 5, 2021
2
0
if its just a IP problem, just right click, “troubleshoot" and ill automatically fix.

I have to do it everytime I boot the VM it started with the second update to the tech preview.
Also having this issue. Quick fix: Win-R > cmd > "ipconfig /renew"
 
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madscene

macrumors newbie
Jan 5, 2021
2
0
Has anyone gotten WinGet, the Windows Package Manager (preview) to work? I downloaded the appxbundle from a 3rd party site but am not sure what the steps are to unpack and install, or if it's even possible.
 

skaro

macrumors member
Oct 7, 2004
45
34
Has anyone gotten WinGet, the Windows Package Manager (preview) to work? I downloaded the appxbundle from a 3rd party site but am not sure what the steps are to unpack and install, or if it's even possible.
I've not tried WinGet, but I did install Windows Terminal from an appxbundle using the following Powershell command: -

Add-AppxPackage -Path "Path to appxbundle file"
 

kave

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2012
567
308
Sweden
Radical suggestion for Apple:
Bring out a computer with BOTH an M1 processor AND and Intel processor !
Sounds ridiculous??
Most support components could be shared (memory, storage power, comms etc) - but if Windows is running (Bootcamp or Parallels) it could 'divert' to a backup Intel chip...otherwise use the Apple Silicon.
Apple made one with both a PowerPC processor and Intel inside with the PowerMac 6100, I had one on my desk on my first job as authorized apple service tech.
It was not a great hit so was not repeated.
 
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theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,451
Apple made one with both a PowerPC processor and Intel inside with the PowerMac 6100, I had one on my desk on my first job as authorized apple service tech.
It was not a great hit so was not repeated.

Yeah ISTR there was an Amiga that could take a PC card, too. I think one problem is that, thanks to "economies of scale" these PC cards ended up costing as much as a complete PC system from your friendly local box-shifter, so you really had to have a good reason for wanting the two systems in one (...and, of course, these were desktop systems - a laptop might have been more compelling if it had been technically feasible...)

The Acorn system that I posted earlier was unusual in that the "PC card" really was just a 486 chip, a single ASIC and a handful of interface components on a card - everything else, including RAM, was shared with the host, effectively a hardware accelerator for the virtual PC software. Most of the other solutions were pretty much a complete "headless" PC system, including RAM, on a card. The "basic" 486SX version was relatively cheap (£100) but may have been a loss-leader to tick the "PC compatible" box on big institutional orders - the more expensive versions were back to the costs-as-much-as-a-real-PC price range.

Anyway, I think the problem today is that both x86 virtualisation and Boot Camp were "low-hanging fruit" on the Intel Macs which were a gnats whisker away from being PC clones anyhow. Apple Silicon Macs are just not going to be such a great solution for Windows or Linux jobs that have to be x86... although I get the impression that modern emulation/translation has come a long way since the bad old days of SoftWindows etc.

(I had a 6100AV, with the video in, not the PC version, at work for a while)
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
I have the feeling that Apple is forgetting their enterprise users here, and both VMware and Parallels are not really forthcoming when it comes to info on the ability to virtualize and emulate x86 systems. Yes, performance might suck, but hey, the new M1 socs are super powerful and outperform Intel chips, right...?
That's where I'm at too. I *need* x86 emulation or an M1 Macbook just can't cover what I need. I don't care if it's not native speed. (and know it wont be!) My Macbook Air M1 is my leisure machine, but when I need to do something for work and that's the only machine I have at the time, that's that I need. Something like Parallels Access is just too hard to use in a browser, so that's out.
 

haralds

macrumors 68030
Jan 3, 2014
2,991
1,252
Silicon Valley, CA
Would you really be willing to boot into an OS that is 5-10 times slower than your current notebook? Because that is the reality of an emulated OS. The advantage of using a VM to run Windows on Arm is that the OS is native while still allowing translated Win32 and x64 Windows apps to run at reasonable speeds.

There was a company many years ago called Transmeta that did whole OS translation in hardware and software at runtime that performed relatively poorly in general but still much faster than just doing emulation via an interpreter. Maybe some company can revive that technology. It was long enough ago that the patents have probably run out.
The performance penalty is only about 20%. it is certainly not 5-10 times slower.
Even games work pretty decently as long as they are not the latest gen AAA.

I am running Parallels with Windows 10 ARM64 preview. Visual Studio, Office 365 running under Windows ARM translation all run nicely.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
I would not be surprised if in five years most Windows laptops run ARM.
Intel is stumbling too much.
You're forgetting backward compatibility is critical in the Windows community, and Microsoft hasn't done very well on Arm, ever.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,015
8,451
That's where I'm at too. I *need* x86 emulation or an M1 Macbook just can't cover what I need.

Well its early days yet, but it looks like you're eventually going to, at least, have a choice of the x86 emulation in Windows for ARM (including the new x86-64 support) or full-system x86 emulation using QEMU or UTM.

There's not much more that Apple could have done without sticking to Intel processors.
 

jdb8167

macrumors 601
Nov 17, 2008
4,859
4,599
The performance penalty is only about 20%. it is certainly not 5-10 times slower.
Even games work pretty decently as long as they are not the latest gen AAA.

I am running Parallels with Windows 10 ARM64 preview. Visual Studio, Office 365 running under Windows ARM translation all run nicely.
That isn't what @pvanberlo was asking for though. He claimed he needed to run Windows x86_64 from the same disk image that he uses from a corporate laptop. That means emulating the whole OS, not just applications through Microsoft's translation/emulation on Windows on Arm. That will be significantly slower--probably by almost an order of magnitude. And someone pointed out, there is UTM that can be used to test the speed.

Your solution is obviously the preferred solution for any kind of Win32 or x86_64 application performance.
 
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