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digitalbreak

macrumors regular
Jan 3, 2016
161
124

nylon

macrumors 65816
Oct 26, 2004
1,407
1,058
Anyone get Command & Conquer to run via Steam. Asking for a friend. ?
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,311
8,325
Right!, if you restart Windows, it seems you have to reinstall Tools, and when you are asked to restart Windowes you choose postpone, otherwise you are back where your started (catch 22). Apparently the video Motech posted has a workaround. In his video (at around 7:42) there's a workaround, but its just to show that it can be done. TO use the features you need to reinstall tools everytime (which is doable). This need to be fixed ASAP.

Otherwise this seems to be functional, and not some hack. In other words, this is the way it's apparently going to go. Arm Windows, that uses MS emulation for Intel apps. Presently, we need this app to support Windows Arm.
Probably down the road MS will support it, so until then this is great. I wonder if VMware is going to jump onboard?


Update: This Tools issue is annoying. Apparently, it will restart Windows automatically if you leave it alone, and then you need to reinstall Tools again PITA. Maybe there's a way to prevent the auto restart I'm seeing.

Here was my workaround:
  • Reinstall Parallels Tools. Postpone before it restarts.
  • Uninstall Parallels Tools from Device Manager.
  • Restart manually.
  • Reinstall Parallels Tools. Postpone before it restarts
  • Restart manually.
 

ahodes

macrumors member
Oct 10, 2011
45
30
Here was my workaround:
  • Reinstall Parallels Tools. Postpone before it restarts.
  • Uninstall Parallels Tools from Device Manager.
  • Restart manually.
  • Reinstall Parallels Tools. Postpone before it restarts
  • Restart manually.
Disable time sync in Parallels on the VM settings. This will fix the issue permanently.
 
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jay-m

macrumors member
Oct 30, 2019
32
30
Got Windows 10 build 21277 installed and tested 'Outer Wilds' (x64, DX11 only game). It looks like culling is heavily broken (it is unplayable, I tried) but everything else works. Performance is a bit lower than through Crossover, but Crossover cannot display animated meshes in DX11 Unity games due to MoltenVK limitations whereas Parallels emulates required features.

Here is a short video: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1s7olKERYj50TqmzTG7rD83C1MEhk_4ix/view

Now I'm gonna try moving my Diablo 2 setup with widescreen mod, PlugY and loot-filter, I could never get widescreen and loot filter to works under Wine/Crossover.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
Then see for your self:

View attachment 1696987

Every Arm not marked as Arm64 is 32bit. Neutral means architecture irrelevant.
Full output:
Code:
PS C:\Users\gnattu> Get-AppxPackage | Select Name, Architecture | Sort Name

Name                                        Architecture
----                                        ------------
1527c705-839a-4832-9118-54d4Bd6a0c89             Neutral
c5e2524a-ea46-4f67-841f-6a9465d9d515             Neutral
E2A4F912-2574-4A75-9BB0-0D023378592B             Neutral
F46D4000-FD22-4DB4-AC8E-4E1DDDE828FE             Neutral
Microsoft.549981C3F5F10                            Arm64
Microsoft.AAD.BrokerPlugin                       Neutral
Microsoft.AccountsControl                        Neutral
Microsoft.AsyncTextService                       Neutral
Microsoft.BingNews                                   Arm
Microsoft.BingWeather                                Arm
Microsoft.BioEnrollment                          Neutral
Microsoft.CredDialogHost                         Neutral
Microsoft.DesktopAppInstaller                        Arm
Microsoft.ECApp                                  Neutral
Microsoft.GetHelp                                    Arm
Microsoft.Getstarted                               Arm64
Microsoft.HEIFImageExtension                         Arm
Microsoft.LanguageExperiencePackzh-CN            Neutral
Microsoft.LockApp                                Neutral
Microsoft.Microsoft3DViewer                        Arm64
Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge                          Neutral
Microsoft.MicrosoftEdgeDevToolsClient            Neutral
Microsoft.MicrosoftOfficeHub                         X86
Microsoft.MicrosoftSolitaireCollection             Arm64
Microsoft.MicrosoftStickyNotes                       Arm
Microsoft.MSPaint                                    Arm
Microsoft.NET.Native.Framework.1.7                   Arm
Microsoft.NET.Native.Framework.2.2                   Arm
Microsoft.NET.Native.Framework.2.2                 Arm64
Microsoft.NET.Native.Runtime.1.7                     Arm
Microsoft.NET.Native.Runtime.2.2                     Arm
Microsoft.NET.Native.Runtime.2.2                   Arm64
Microsoft.Office.OneNote                             Arm
Microsoft.People                                   Arm64
Microsoft.ScreenSketch                             Arm64
Microsoft.SkypeApp                                   Arm
Microsoft.StorePurchaseApp                           Arm
Microsoft.Todos                                      Arm
Microsoft.UI.Xaml.2.3                              Arm64
Microsoft.UI.Xaml.2.3                                Arm
Microsoft.UI.Xaml.2.4                                Arm
Microsoft.UI.Xaml.2.4                              Arm64
Microsoft.UI.Xaml.CBS                              Arm64
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00                              Arm
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00                            Arm64
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00                              X86
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00.UWPDesktop                 Arm64
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00.UWPDesktop                   X86
Microsoft.VCLibs.140.00.UWPDesktop                   Arm
Microsoft.VP9VideoExtensions                         Arm
Microsoft.WebMediaExtensions                         Arm
Microsoft.WebpImageExtension                         Arm
Microsoft.Win32WebViewHost                       Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.Apprep.ChxApp                  Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.AssignedAccessLockApp          Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.CallingShellApp                Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.CapturePicker                  Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.CloudExperienceHost            Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.ContentDeliveryManager         Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.NarratorQuickStart             Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.OOBENetworkCaptivePortal       Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.OOBENetworkConnectionFlow      Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.ParentalControls               Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.PeopleExperienceHost           Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.Photos                             Arm
Microsoft.Windows.PinningConfirmationDialog      Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.Search                         Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.SecHealthUI                    Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.SecureAssessmentBrowser        Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.ShellExperienceHost            Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.StartMenuExperienceHost        Neutral
Microsoft.Windows.XGpuEjectDialog                Neutral
Microsoft.WindowsAlarms                            Arm64
Microsoft.WindowsCalculator                          Arm
Microsoft.WindowsCamera                              Arm
microsoft.windowscommunicationsapps                  Arm
Microsoft.WindowsFeedbackHub                       Arm64
Microsoft.WindowsMaps                              Arm64
Microsoft.WindowsSoundRecorder                     Arm64
Microsoft.WindowsStore                               Arm
Microsoft.WindowsTerminal                          Arm64
Microsoft.Xbox.TCUI                                  Arm
Microsoft.XboxApp                                    Arm
Microsoft.XboxGameCallableUI                     Neutral
Microsoft.XboxGameOverlay                            Arm
Microsoft.XboxGamingOverlay                          Arm
Microsoft.XboxIdentityProvider                       Arm
Microsoft.XboxSpeechToTextOverlay                    Arm
Microsoft.YourPhone                                  Arm
Microsoft.ZuneMusic                                  Arm
Microsoft.ZuneVideo                                  Arm
MicrosoftWindows.Client.CBS                        Arm64
MicrosoftWindows.UndockedDevKit                  Neutral
NcsiUwpApp                                       Neutral
SpotifyAB.SpotifyMusic                               X86
Windows.CBSPreview                               Neutral
windows.immersivecontrolpanel                    Neutral
Windows.PrintDialog                              Neutral

What I mean "like rosetta", is to translate unsupported code to supported code. What is translated is different, this is why I said it is "like".
What happens when you try to launch one of the things listed as "Arm"? Do you get an error? I'd be lying if I said I didn't have serious cat-killing curiosity.
 

jay-m

macrumors member
Oct 30, 2019
32
30
What happens when you try to launch one of the things listed as "Arm"? Do you get an error? I'd be lying if I said I didn't have serious cat-killing curiosity.
No error, I can see window outline for split second and it immediately closes. Tried with Skype and Photos. Processes do not even show up in Task Manager, not even for a moment.
 

Gnattu

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2020
1,107
1,672
What happens when you try to launch one of the things listed as "Arm"? Do you get an error? I'd be lying if I said I didn't have serious cat-killing curiosity.
They crash, no error, just crash before they load.

If you use some way to install the x86 version they will run under emulation like described in #147
 

Gnattu

macrumors 65816
Sep 18, 2020
1,107
1,672
No as it is 32bit probably
Is there another version?
There is a HARD workaround summarized in #147. Basic idea is to get an x86 version of the app and replace the internal one with that. So that we can use the emulation layer to run the app. But the process of extracting/finding the x86 version and replacing the internal is not easy at all.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
There is a ARM64 version of Teams. Do not bother running the x86 version of Teams - albeit it would work.
Ah! Good to know! There hadn't been for a bit. Glad to see they've ported that over.

Makes me wonder why people are so obsessed with running x64 Windows. Even assuming we could emulate the whole x64 system and running x64 Windows, you would never be able to run native ARM64 versions of Teams, Office, Photoshop, Lightroom, VLC player etc.

Because the pool of apps that run natively on Windows 10 for x64 will always be SUBSTANTIALLY larger than that of Windows 10 for ARM64. Otherwise, if all Windows Apps were either universal, or available for both architectures, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to an end user.

Not sure what is not to believe here. Above mentioned apps are ARM32 as is the Microsoft Store app - and therefore are not running on M1. Since at least the store is a central component, Microsoft would have to recompile the Store for ARM64 eventually in order to make it run on M1.

I've always been under the impression that Microsoft has only made an ARM64 version of Windows 10 (and not a 32-bit ARM version) and that apps for Windows RT need to have not ever applied in the context of Windows 10 for ARM64. I see visual proof that this is assumption is wrong on my part. But do know that up until I was corrected with visual proof, it had been my understanding that everything that comes stock in Windows 10 for ARM64 is native 64-bit ARM (as why would there be any need for 32-bit applications when there was never a 32-bit ARM version of Windows 10?

Confirmed, both x86 and x64 are directly translated to ARM64.



Skyrim is x86. Keep in mind that x86 is harder to emulate on ARM64 than x64 is.

Because it has to go from 32-bit to 64-bit and change architectures in the process?

Finally got it working. Note to fix the mouse capture, you need to disable the time synchronization so you don't need to reinstall Parallels Tools every time you reboot.

I run a Geekbench forcing X64 and it's sadly the single core/multicore speeds are roughly half of what Geekbench 5 results in Rosetta 2. I am going to probably test 3DMark later.

View attachment 1696918
You can up this by giving it more cores and RAM. Mr. Macintosh did it and got speeds that were much closer to native M1 macOS benchmarks.
Someone needs to contact Parallels and tell them to fix this Tools issue. It auto restarts, so it's an endless re-install of Tools, and it seems like this would be a trivial bug to fix.

So you reinstall Tools, but not really, as you can't let it restart Windows, cuz then you need to re-install tools, but then a pop-up will appear after a while asking you to restart with a timer for 10 seconds to postpone , or else you will have to re-install Tools. Fun.

You do know that it's a technical preview, right? Like, it's not even a public beta. Also, Microsoft has, in no way, blessed this as it is still against their licensing terms to run Windows 10 for ARM64 on anything that isn't a device that ships with it preloaded.

So it's postpone repeatedly.

But in general, people should be informed about these apps. It seems like the solution to the problem of Windows on M1.

Hold your horses there. Much still has to happen before this is even remotely as robust of a solution as it is for Intel Macs.

Right of course. This is actually obvious. Thanks.

But again I must say I'm amazed. Mostly at how quickly this has progressed as now Windows on M1 has been solved for the most part, and how well this all works. All we have is this little thread going but this is huge news.

Of course it's up to MS. It's still these insider builds, and that's probably the bottleneck for a while.
There wasn't really a "progression". Microsoft has had this version of Windows for a while now. They've also had Insider Previews since the days leading up to the launch of the original (v1507) version of Windows 10. All that happened here is that we were given a technical preview of an Apple Silicon native Hypervisor that's more user-friendly than qemu and obviously on its way to being as nice as the x86-64 versions of Parallels Desktop and VMware Fusion.

But yes, Microsoft is the initial bottleneck. Parallels can help a little bit, but Apple will probably need to also be involved as well seeing as it's THEIR Hypervisor framework that Parallels leverages (and therefore will need official drivers for). Certainly if direct booting Windows 10 for ARM64 on an Apple Silicon Mac (a la Intel Mac Boot Camp) ever becomes a thing, Apple will absolutely need to play an active role as they'll need to supply Microsoft with drivers as well as an iBoot compatible bootloader to use for Windows 10 for ARM64.
Where did you get the activation key?
Product keys for Windows should work across architectures (which is how 32-bit x86 Windows 10 [for the few that have supported hardware to even run 32-bit x86 Windows 10] and 64-bit x86 or x64 Windows 10 are able to use the same product keys). So, just use whatever key you have for whatever edition of Windows and it should activate just fine.
No idea what that is, but seems like volume licensing and the link doesn't mention Windows ARM?
KMS (Key Management Service) is a volume license activation service wherein a server performs activation for clients and acts as the middle man between clients and Microsoft, as far as activation is concerned. You need at least 25 clients to even technically qualify to use it (though, nothing will stop you from just standing up a KMS server or a fake KMS server with the proper keys to activate Windows 10). The key to put into Windows 10 is a public key that Microsoft openly publishes. That key won't activate Windows 10, but it will signify to Windows 10 that it should look to a KMS server for its licensing and activation rather than using a standard product key. The key that you input into the server for those activations is what's personalized and shouldn't be given out publicly. KMS is used primarily in situations with tons of PCs on a network and in situations where deploying either a Manual Activation Key (MAK) or individual product keys are time consuming, cumbersome, and/or otherwise impractical.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 603
May 20, 2010
6,024
2,617
Los Angeles, CA
They crash, no error, just crash before they load.

If you use some way to install the x86 version they will run under emulation like described in #147
Oof. That sounds like something Microsoft will want to change, especially since ARM is looking to follow Apple's example of removing 32-bit ARM instruction sets going forward. Thanks for that!
 

Macalway

macrumors 601
Aug 7, 2013
4,186
2,934
Hold your horses there. Much still has to happen before this is even remotely as robust of a solution as it is for Intel Macs.

I'm usually pretty skeptical, and over the years these types of things (at this stage), almost always are alpha and more proof of concept. But I got the Windows apps I needed up and running perfectly in about a half hour! No further action required.

These are just the apps I use and are lightweight. I would imagine games will be a challenge, but for the Excel crowd, spreadsheets, and other non graphic intensive apps, this might just be good enough the way it is now. So, it's a bit of a surprise, and people should be made aware of it, obviously.

I knew the apps I needed to run, and so I bought the M1 half expecting to be able to do this, while half expecting to use my little Windows machine to cover it. So I'm happy. I'm really glad I'm not a gamer (For a number of reasons) :D
 
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CMMChris

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2019
850
794
Germany (Bavaria)
Did a Geekbench 5 run with all 8 cores and 8GB of RAM assigned to the VM. Quite impressive.
 

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Gerdi

macrumors 6502
Apr 25, 2020
449
301
Because the pool of apps that run natively on Windows 10 for x64 will always be SUBSTANTIALLY larger than that of Windows 10 for ARM64. Otherwise, if all Windows Apps were either universal, or available for both architectures, it wouldn't make a bit of difference to an end user.

x86 and x64 apps do also run under Windows ARM. The main difference is, that if you want to run x86/x64 Windows on your M1 you would need to emulate the whole machine including Windows, while on Windows ARM only the application is emulated but not the OS - which is significantly faster - as you can figure.
So if you want to shoot yourself into the foot, you want x64 Windows running on the M1 instead ARM Windows.

I've always been under the impression that Microsoft has only made an ARM64 version of Windows 10 (and not a 32-bit ARM version) and that apps for Windows RT need to have not ever applied in the context of Windows 10 for ARM64. I see visual proof that this is assumption is wrong on my part. But do know that up until I was corrected with visual proof, it had been my understanding that everything that comes stock in Windows 10 for ARM64 is native 64-bit ARM (as why would there be any need for 32-bit applications when there was never a 32-bit ARM version of Windows 10?

Windows ARM has a triple WOW (Windows on Windows) layer architecture - for x64, x86 and ARM32.
Microsoft included the WOW layer for ARM32 because it can now run Apps originally compiled for Windows RT. So if you check the App Store you will find quite a few apps from Windows RT times.

Because it has to go from 32-bit to 64-bit and change architectures in the process?

Thats one reason but a minor one. The main reason however is that x86 is relatively emulation unfriendly on modern RISC processors. The x86 ISA only has very few registers and is using many instructions with memory operands - so it is a very bad match for a load-store architecture with many registers.
 
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skaro

macrumors member
Oct 7, 2004
45
34
There is ARM64 native Office. One should not have to install either the x86 nor x64 versions of Office for Windows.
Are you sure? I thought Office on Windows on ARM was x86 “optimised for ARM64” rather than native.
 

motech

macrumors newbie
Apr 7, 2009
6
3
You need to go to windows settings, sign into your Microsoft account in the insider release panel, accept to send diagnostics info, and change to preview dev releases, then update to release 21277.1 in windows updates.
Did this, successfully installed a 64bit app (that i really needed) and it works!
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,882
3,061
So let’s hope the following sweet deal happens.

Microsoft does not want to sell individual arm windows to the public. Only to OEMs. (Equipment makers)

parrallels wants to sell lots of VM software (as does VMware) to the growing M1 community.


So Microsoft allows both parallels and vmware. To sell it as a bundle.

Apple has no interest in selling Microsoft Windows (or do they via the App Store ?)


so let’s see Apple is a physical seller of equipment (OEM). And both Parallels and Vmware provide Virtual Hardware

Seems to me that Microsoft has at least two routes to make this available to a Rapidly growing community that will replace Intel in at least this particular case

win win for everyone.

well only looser is Microsoft and its own product SurfaceX (??). But then again Microsoft proclaims all the time that its surface devices should be seen as a technology show case that others can follow.

One wonders if Microsoft will really take up the baton in this “Software every where” challenge that they have created for them selfs (under thier new management)

in any case the growing dominance of the M(x) chips powering future Apple devices is so large that Microsoft will not just ignore. Let’s hope they move fast and don’t forget what happened with IE !!
Yes, I was also wondering whether, if MS didn't make ARM Windows available at retail, they might consider selling to Parallels and VMware. Apple being an OEM woudn't count, though, since Apple isn't installing this on their machines.
 
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