MP All Models PCIe SSDs - NVMe & AHCI

[tsialex]

To hammer this home, my current temps are:

SM951 AHCI in a PX1 - 107.6° F

970Pro in a I/O Crest - 114.8° F

The temp Range for the SM951 is 32° F to 158° F and for the 970Pro it's 41°F to 177.8° F

Lou

Here with both blades installed into Angelbird Wings PX1, at idle the SSDs are around 42ºC but when cloning one to the other, 970Pro easily gets ~10ºC hotter than the 951-AHCI.

With SSD7101A, the delta between temperatures is smaller, around 4ºC, but exists even with the giant heatsink and fan. I'll probably install a thermal pad between the 970Pro and the SSD7101A in the future to check if makes any difference into this delta.

 

[flowrider]

Hi Lou, does the I/O Crest card have a heatsink? Do you consider a peak of 177°F / 80°C hot for NAND chips / controllers in any case? It's a bit toasty, but wouldn't be too worrisome if we were talking about a CPU or GPU, for example.

A heatsink and a fan. Those are Samsung's numbers. I'm sure they did a lot of testing.



Lou

 

[mode11]

Oh OK, so the temp range is the safe operating temperature range given by Samsung; I thought you were talking about what you had seen in use in your MP.

Your 970Pro was at 115°F / 46°C when you posted - idling at the desktop? As that was in a device (SI-PEX40129?) with active cooling, it sounds like some kind of heatsink would be necessary to keep 970 Pro / EVO temperatures reasonable when pushed hard, even if personally, I'd rarely be pushing a drive in a sustained, intensive way. The IO Crest card looks good value though.

 

[Gogeta-Blue]

before the 8 samsung 970 pro that i have now, i had 8 samsung 960 evo and i learned the hard way the diference between MLC and TLC in other words the controller, the EVO uses a cheaper controller that will throttle after you write around 15 to 20 gigs then it will beging to get slower and slower untill it crawls to 300 mbps , meaning slower that a SSD drive, this doesn’t have nothing to do with temperatures, my drives had thermal pads and fans and i still had the trottling problem untill i found out about the problem, this wasn’t the famous firmware issue either, the drives had the good firmware, is simply the way the are created because they use a slower controller

that’s why i sold all those 960 EVO drives and bought the PRO’s that can write at sustain speed, the EVO’s are good to read from the drive and for minimal to normal or moderate writing but they are not for heavy writing because they can’t sustain the speed

also if they overheat is even worse, so just keep that in mind, i think if i remember correctly in the 970 series one is MCL 3 and the other one is 2 , something like that, sorry i’m not at home or using my computer, but the PRO’s are better for writting also the price is more reasonable now that it was back then with the 960 or even before that.

if you are not going to do heavy writing get a EVO, also you can create a ram disk and do all the heavy writing there as long as you have enough space for the task, that also will help the drive from wearing out.

 

[mode11]

The issue with the 960 EVO seems to be that when the fast SLC 'TurboWrite' cache is full, the drive slows down to the speed of the underlying TLC.

This seems to be more of an issue with the 250GB model, though, as its TLC only performs at 300MB/s (note mega bytes not mega bits). The 500GB and 1000GB models' TLC speeds are 600 and 1200MB/s respectively. Those drives also have a 2-3x larger SLC cache, making the drop to TLC speeds less likely in the first place. The smaller drive is also more likely to be near-full, reducing its ability to provision spare capacity as SLC cache.

You'd have to be hammering a (500GB+) EVO pretty hard to reveal these types of issues in practice, though.

 

[Kenny_D]

Sorry if asking a wrong question in this forum. I'm currently on 10.13.6 with BootROM 140.0.0.0.0
and planning to buy Anglebird PX1 and Samsung 970 EVO/Pro for using as boot volume.
I'm wondering if it will be bootable under High Sierra or I have to be on Mojave OS.
Thanks.

 

[bsbeamer]

Sorry if asking a wrong question in this forum. I'm currently on 10.13.6 with BootROM 140.0.0.0.0
and planning to buy Anglebird PX1 and Samsung 970 EVO/Pro for using as boot volume.
I'm wondering if it will be bootable under High Sierra or I have to be on Mojave OS.
Thanks.

See this post in this thread: #118
Same setup still working for me with 10.13.6 17G5019 with 140.0.0.0.0

 

[Kenny_D]

See this post in this thread: #118
Same setup still working for me with 10.13.6 17G5019 with 140.0.0.0.0

Thank you very much for your help, bsbeamer.

 

[Le_Cactus]

The new WD Black SN750 PCIe NVMe M.2 - 1 To looks interesting.
3470/3000 MB/s (Read/Write)

I hope it'll be compatible with the IOCrest or Highpoint SSD adapters.

 

[handheldgames]

The new WD Black SN750 PCIe NVMe M.2 - 1 To looks interesting.
3470/3000 MB/s (Read/Write)

I hope it'll be compatible with the IOCrest or Highpoint SSD adapters.

Thanks for sharing.

Compatibility won’t be an issue, but don’t expect to see more than 3000mb/s read/writes on the highpoint or IOCrest m.2 adapters.

The highpoint packages a single x4 pcie 3.0 ssd into an 8 pcie 2.0 lanes, with a max bandwidth of 3000 mb/s. 2 of those ssd’s in raid 0 would saturate the highpoint at 6000 mb/s. While the IOCrest chipset uses 8 pcie 2.0 lanes, maxing out at 3000mb/s with 1 or 2 ssd’s.

 

[jikka]

Hello, I'm looking to upgrade my Mac Pro (6,1) with an internal 2 tb ssd. So far I was going to buy the Samsung 970 EVO + Sintech adapter + heatsink. But just yesterday I found this upgrade from Samsung - a Samsung 970 EVO plus, that is supposedly coming 6.2.2019 (sorry I found this only on German Amazon - the upcoming date is in the column on the right).

Does anybody know if this is also ok with Mac Pro? And should I wait for this one?

 

[Vdovinea]

Hi

How to upgrade Mac Pro 3.1 PCI-E 2.0 slot 3?

history #3

thanks

 

[flowrider]

Hello, I'm looking to upgrade my Mac Pro (6,1) with an internal 2 tb ssd. So far I was going to buy the Samsung 970 EVO + Sintech adapter + heatsink. But just yesterday I found this upgrade from Samsung - a Samsung 970 EVO plus, that is supposedly coming 6.2.2019 (sorry I found this only on German Amazon - the upcoming date is in the column on the right).

Does anybody know if this is also ok with Mac Pro? And should I wait for this one?

https://www.pcworld.com/article/333...try-level-nvme-ssd-is-faster-and-cheaper.html

https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/consumer/970evoplus/

Lou

 

[jikka]

https://www.pcworld.com/article/333...try-level-nvme-ssd-is-faster-and-cheaper.html

https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/consumer/970evoplus/

Lou

Thanks for the links Lou, sounds promising. When someone has some experience with this 970 evo plus in a Mac, I'm interested to hear.

 

[tsialex]

I read some reviews of 970 EVO Plus, seems everything is exactly the same, even the PCB, except NAND layer density. So it probably work like a 970 EVO.

I’m curious if Samsung will release a PRO Plus version later this year, to fill the void. It’s not time to jump to PCIe 4.0 controllers yet.

 

[handheldgames]

I read some reviews of 970 EVO Plus, seems everything is exactly the same, even the PCB, except NAND layer density. So it probably work like a 970 EVO.

I’m curious if Samsung will release a PRO Plus version later this year, to fill the void. It’s not time to jump to PCIe 4.0 controllers yet.

To clarify expectations... Booting from Mojave on any Blade SSD formatted with APFS, expect a 50% hit on 4K write operations. Whilst large file writes are more heavily cached in APFS, everything else seems to suffer.

2nd 970 Pro installed into a Highpoint SSD7101a


Booting from APFS further degrades performance into the ditch.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

So has anyone tried the Highpoint SSD 7110 NVMe? It's crazy expensive but seems like it could be a good setup for maximizing Lane 2 use? If I'm going to take a kick to the pant's on a badass controller, I'd like to get full use of the slot I'm filling-and it looks like 3 NVMe's occupy x12 which would leave x4 left for SATA's at 5 Gbps (PCIE 2.0) fully utilizing all x16 lanes right? I'm wanting to route my HDD without having to commit a slot to a dedicated x4 controller/slot. I found a off brand single NVMe, single SATA solution but this seems better suited for expansion.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1413210-REG/highpoint_ssd7110_ssd_7110_3x_m_2.html

 

[bsbeamer]

So has anyone tried the Highpoint SSD 7110 NVMe? It's crazy expensive but seems like it could be a good setup for maximizing Lane 2 use? If I'm going to take a kick to the pant's on a badass controller, I'd like to get full use of the slot I'm filling-and it looks like 3 NVMe's occupy x12 which would leave x4 left for SATA's at 5 Gbps (PCIE 2.0) fully utilizing all x16 lanes right? I'm wanting to route my HDD without having to commit a slot to a dedicated x4 controller/slot. I found a off brand single NVMe, single SATA solution but this seems better suited for expansion.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1413210-REG/highpoint_ssd7110_ssd_7110_3x_m_2.html

They specifically state "For Mac support, please contact Sales" under NVMe RAID Configurations > RAID Mode Support. There is no Mac listed TRIM RAID support.

Operating System Support on PDF says "macOS (contact Sales for more information)"

http://www.highpoint-tech.com/USA_new/series-ssd7110-specification.htm
http://www.highpoint-tech.com/PDF/NVMe/SSD7110/Datasheet_SSD7110_18_07_26.pdf

If you seriously are considering, would contact sales@highpoint-tech.com to see what they say. B&H tech support will be of no help with this.

 

[handheldgames]

So has anyone tried the Highpoint SSD 7110 NVMe? It's crazy expensive but seems like it could be a good setup for maximizing Lane 2 use? If I'm going to take a kick to the pant's on a badass controller, I'd like to get full use of the slot I'm filling-and it looks like 3 NVMe's occupy x12 which would leave x4 left for SATA's at 5 Gbps (PCIE 2.0) fully utilizing all x16 lanes right? I'm wanting to route my HDD without having to commit a slot to a dedicated x4 controller/slot. I found a off brand single NVMe, single SATA solution but this seems better suited for expansion.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1413210-REG/highpoint_ssd7110_ssd_7110_3x_m_2.html

Two 970 Pros on the Highpoint get close to saturating 16 PCIe lanes at 6000 MB/sec. with HFS partitions.



The IOCrest is limited to 8 lanes and tops out at 3000 MB/s with the same raid setup.

iocrest 970 Pro raid 0


iocrest single 970 Pro

 

[Reindeer_Games]

Two 970 Pros on the Highpoint get close to saturating 16 PCIe lanes at 6000 MB/sec. with HFS partitions.

The IOCrest is limited to 8 lanes and tops out at 3000 MB/s with the same raid setup.

My thoughts for my application would be 1 NVMe for OS, 2 for RAID on a single card-plus lanes left over via the onboard SATA controller for other drives while only filling 1 of the x16 lanes. Those numbers are more than impressive to me-LOL.

I've already come to terms I'm going to have to spend some money on a better card to step up in speed-if I can fit all my controllers onto one board it would solve a few cost/benefit issues for me. It's going to hurt though if that's my route.

 

[handheldgames]

My thoughts for my application would be 1 NVMe for OS, 2 for RAID on a single card-plus lanes left over via the onboard SATA controller for other drives while only filling 1 of the x16 lanes. Those numbers are more than impressive to me-LOL.

I've already come to terms I'm going to have to spend some money on a better card to step up in speed-if I can fit all my controllers onto one board it would solve a few cost/benefit issues for me. It's going to hurt though if that's my route.

Watch for deals on amazon. Highpoint SSD7101's show up every so often for $275, at least in the USA.

 

[bsbeamer]

I'd take a closer look at your overall system and end goals about what you're looking to achieve.

GPU in one x16 and Highpoint 7101 in another x16, but what occupies the other PCIe slots?
What is in your four SATA drive bays?
What is in your optical bay(s)?
What read/write speed do you NEED to achieve?
What total data capacity do you NEED?
How much money are you willing (or wanting) to spend (or "invest") in a machine 7+ years old?
Could the machine be obsolete by the release of the next macOS version?

The numbers IN THEORY and in benchmarks are often different in real-world testing and experience. If you're constantly needing 5,000+ MB/s speeds for system and media/storage, this aging Mac Pro system is not for you. Cut your losses: you've clearly outgrown the machine and its time to move onto another workstation. The limits and bottleneck with PCIe 2.0 are real and impacting your needs.

If you're just trying to eek out as much performance out of the tower as possible, set yourself a budget and go from there.

Yes, SSDs can be repurposed and moved to another machine, but do not assume they can easily (or cheaply) be moved to another Mac in the future (especially true with NVMe). Moving parts to a Windows workstation is a different story entirely.
[doublepost=1548775998][/doublepost]Just as an FYI to anyone looking to get a PX1 adapter: it has been marked "END OF LIFE" by Angelbird. I'm sure retailers will continue to sell their existing stock, but may become more difficult to find once existing stock is depleted.

 

[JeDiGM]

bsbeamer beat me to my question here. Can anyone running a highpoint card comment on any real world performance improvements they're seeing using one of these cards? Is the OS booting faster? Are you seeing any performance gains on heavy workloads? Is your overall experience in macOS improved? Would be great to hear some comments on this. I understand that certain performance gains on file transfers would be apparent as would rendering times i suppose? What about other applications and tasks?

 

[bsbeamer]

bsbeamer beat me to my question here. Can anyone running a highpoint card comment on any real world performance improvements they're seeing using one of these cards? Is the OS booting faster? Are you seeing any performance gains on heavy workloads? Is your overall experience in macOS improved? Would be great to hear some comments on this. I understand that certain performance gains on file transfers would be apparent as would rendering times i suppose? What about other applications and tasks?

OS boot time is slowed when via NVMe as it is, so assume the Highpoint RAID via PCIe would do nothing to improve that.

HDD (non-RAID) > Highpoint NVMe in RAID, the noticeable speed difference is going to be drastic.

SATA SSD (in SATA) > Highpoint NVMe in RAID, the noticeable speed difference is going to be vastly improved all around.

SATA SSD via PCIe > Highpoint NVMe in RAID is where I think most people will want to know real-world reports. This is the situation most were in for the past 1-2 years.

NVMe SSD via PX1 > Highpoint NVMe in RAID, the read/write performance benchmarks will increase, but I'm not sure there will be any real-world difference in daily activity. This is not where the bottleneck lies for the majority of people. (If also using for media/storage, it's almost a completely different question and usage.)

I'm on NVMe via PX1 for boot currently (around 1500 MB/s). Was on PCIe SATA SSD previously (EVO 850 or 860 via Apricorn Velocity Duo X2). The only true noticeable REAL WORLD improvement is faster application launch for software with many plugins. It shaves a few seconds here and there for other tasks, but it's not a 50%+ improvement for the majority. Just incremental. Appreciate it's available, increases speeds, but it's not flying like a brand new machine... and that is what many expect.

 

[Reindeer_Games]

I'd take a closer look at your overall system and end goals about what you're looking to achieve.

GPU in one x16 and Highpoint 7101 in another x16, but what occupies the other PCIe slots?
What is in your four SATA drive bays?
What is in your optical bay(s)?
What read/write speed do you NEED to achieve?
What total data capacity do you NEED?
How much money are you willing (or wanting) to spend (or "invest") in a machine 7+ years old?
View attachment 818825

I get where you're coming from-but this is the only tower I've ever bought, thats how much respect I have for these rigs. I built every other one I've used and I'd be looking to carry that card over into a new PC build or Mac application. I wouldn't recommend it either, but it solves all my problems-just at a high cost.

Cost/benefit-wise in looking at only using it in the short-term it would be expensive, but if Apple takes it's time-I could see it paying off either in extending the life of this one or adding to the life of my next one.

A single NVMe speed by itself will handle everything I need, but I would like more than one without creating a bottleneck of USB, SATA, NVME controllers. There are only 36 lanes of 5/GT's available on the Northbridge. Two of which become occupied when SoftRAID is used (because the PCIE 3/4 switch becomes engaged-rerouting the SATA bays via lane 4), but isn't a problem when lane 3 is only a USB card (that would become bottlenecked to 10 Gbps) and slot 4 is empty. The GT120 originally occupied slot 3 wasn't bottlenecked by that design, plus left room for a upgraded hardware RAID card-which left 1 and 2 for full x16 creative card use. (Thats #1 reason why workstation cards are single lane).

Is the OS booting faster? Are you seeing any performance gains on heavy workloads? Is your overall experience in macOS improved?

Just to caveat on bsbeamer's info-boot times are greatly improved with any SATA III or newer SSD's. But SATA SSD's and NVMe's are so comparable on boot (IMO) I've opted to keep my OS SSD's drives in the SATA bay's to keep it simple and am using my NVMe as a high performance media drive. RAID will always add a few micro-second to reaction time and is best used for large volume handling IMO-but it's impressive even on one NVMe. Like bsbeamer was directing me just previously-one or two big NVMe's are quite a powerful tool to add to the toolbox.

Processor core speed is approximately equivalent to total achievable real world speeds - dependent on your configuration.