Performance degrading on sustained workload w/ external monitor? MBP 16"

[Camarillo Brillo]

Keep complaining to Apple, folks!

We need to make a big stink over this so they prioritize a fix and so it doesn’t get swept under the rug. They need to optimize the Radeon drivers.

They may never fix it. For all we know, it may be impossible to fix, it may be a quality of the Radeon card itself that it needs to pull 3-4x as much power in certain situations. If this is the case, we’ll probably never hear it from Apple. They will just ignore us, and sweep it under the rug.

Email Tim Cook and any other high level execs you can find an email address for. If you’re getting the run around from low level reps, this might be the best way to jump ahead to somebody that matters.

 

[SnackTime]

I downloaded istat on my new 2.4/32g/5500 so I could check this out, because I too noticed the computer got very warm when I plugged in an external monitor but did not put it into clamshell mode.

Same thing you guys are seeing - with external monitor connected and the laptop open, Radeon is pulling about 18 watts. As soon as I either unplug the external monitor, or close the computer and go into clamshell, Radeon reduces to 4 watts. What I thought was interesting is that even without any external monitor, radeon was pulling <1 watt, and the intel gpu was still at 0. I don't have force radeon GPU on in settings but it looked to me like it was still using the radeon with no external monitor connected.

This is also interesting and maybe promising - I spent a long time in tech support chat with apple today, sent screenshots of the istat GPU wattages in clamshell and with both monitors on. They had me boot up in safe mode to see what happens, and I thought it was pretty weird that in safe mode, the radeon gpu stays at a steady ~10 watts, whether the external monitor is connected or not, clamshell or not. So the apple guy and I were speculating that it could be a software issue that could be fixed down the line. Once I got out of safe mode, back to 18/4 watts on the Radeon.

Their next troubleshooting step is to reinstall Catalina, which I suspect won't do anything, but then again, some people are saying they don't have this problem, so who knows, maybe it will help. They told me that if this doesn't do it, they want to get me on with phone support and run it up the ladder. Hopefully I get somewhere.

I'll let you guys know what happens when the Catalina reinstall is done.

I'd recommend that anybody having this issue do what I did, start talking to apple about it, take screenshots of the istat menu showing what's going on, get them logging the calls and complaints and if you think about it, this should protect you in the future when it comes to something going wrong with your computer - you can say hey Apple, look at your records, I started telling you guys about this when I had the computer for 4 days and you told me you were working on fixing it. Could help with late returns/replacements if it turns into some persistent issue. Or if enough people bring it to their attention could lead to a faster fix, if a software fix is possible.

Granted our 16" configurations aren't the exact same...but I'm curious why your numbers are so different from mine.

What monitor/resolution/refresh rate are you using?

With my 16" MBP plugged into an external monitor, at 2560x1440@60hz, my GPU is drawing 18W - in clamshell.


I am not surprised that running with lid open would be a lot more demanding than expected. IIRC it is computationally more demanding to render 2 different resolutions at different refresh rates.

 

[ChinkyBob]

There is no 'problem'. Any thin and light laptop will have this issue (Dell XPS etc), and actually be worse than the MacBook Pro 16"

Putting a GPU and a 6/8 core CPU in a very small machine will result in heat.

For something supposed to be able to drive 2 6k monitors or 4 4k monitors or whatever, to not being able to actually drive a single Full HD monitor without throttling is unacceptable.
I have been waiting to upgrade my MBP 2015 15inch for 5yrs now and it seems Apple still cant get this stuff right.
Sorry many laptops can plug in external monitors without major issues (incl Mine!), Apples almost 3000$ laptop with 1800$ Specs should be more polished than that, thats what we pay the extra for.
They only make 3 different laptops FFS, unlike other makes who made many, many more.

 

[mrmachine79]

I just got a Razer Core X Chroma and Sapphire Pulse RX 5500 XT 4GB to eliminate crippling performance issues (not heat/noise) on my 2019 MBP 15". I got the Sapphire card because it was the cheapest 7nm model and noted to be very quiet in reviews (40dB under load), and I don't actually need GPU performance, I just need to fix/bypass the MBP CPU performance when using an external display.

On heat/noise, it is *slightly* louder than the MBP at idle with internal display (~2100 RPM). I measured the noise level with my iPhone as 28dB next to my ear at my normal sitting position, about 2 feet away from the eGPU.

It is *considerably* quieter than the MBP at max fans (~5900 RPM). The sound is a much lower pitch, too, with larger and lower RPM fans, which you can swap out if you want it even quieter. You can also put it under the desk. I have mine next to the monitor. I plan to swap the eGPU chassis and PSU fans with very quiet Noctua fans.

I ran some tests in a fresh Catalina install to compare CPU performance (Cinebench) with an external 4K display at "looks like 2560x1440" scaled resolution (which draws ~15W up from ~5W with the internal display only), both with the eGPU and the dGPU, as performance is my primary concern (not noise and heat, which may be the cause of the degraded performance).

1. Sustaining 47-50W and 2.7-2.9GHz with external display and eGPU after 95 passes
2. Sustaining 47-50W and 2.7-3.1GHz with external display and eGPU and simultaneous Luxmark eGPU benchmark (no change)
3. Sustaining 34-37W and 2.3-2.5GHz with external display and dGPU
4. Sustaining 26-30W and 1.9-2.1GHz with external display and dGPU and Discord 1-1 video chat in Safari
5. Drops from sustained 40W to 23W with external display and dGPU and simultaneous Luxmark dGPU benchmark

That's a significant drop in CPU performance, from (2) sustained 47-50W and 2.7-3.1GHz even with an extreme GPU benchmark running concurrently, down to (4) 26-30W and 1.9-2.1GHz while doing a 1-1 video conference in Safari. I also tested in Chrome, and the native Discord app, with no significant difference.

You can also see the immediate negative impact on CPU performance when a dGPU benchmark runs concurrently (5), vs no impact at all when an eGPU benchmark runs concurrently (2).

After a couple hours of light to medium work on my regular Catalina install with external display attached to eGPU, CPU frequencies are frequently averaging 3.3-3.5GHz and peaking at 4.1GHz, and the MBP fans are ~2500. Without the eGPU in the past, with the same external display at the same resolution, the system fans would be near max in this scenario and CPU performance would be lower.

I'm replacing this machine with a 16" next week, so I'll run the same tests when I can. I expect that the 16" will be able to sustain 62-67W with internal display OR internal + external via eGPU. I also expect that while the 16" has more thermal headroom to begin with, it also has more power draw to the dGPU (~20W up from ~15W) with ANY external display and at ANY resolution, vs my 15". So it'll be interesting to see how much of an improvement the eGPU gives to CPU performance.

On eGPU usage, it is a bit annoying that the dGPU is still used and still draws power. But at least it only draws ~5W down from ~15W (or ~20W on the 16"). I can't find any way to shut it off completely and use only iGPU and eGPU. If I make the external display "primary", most apps will default to eGPU. Otherwise, I can manually set (via "Get Info") individual apps to prefer eGPU when available. The other annoying thing about eGPU is the need to "safely" disconnect, which basically quits and maybe (or maybe not) relaunches all apps that are currently using the eGPU. But at least, CPU performance is as good as it can get and intensive graphics work on the eGPU will make zero difference to CPU performance.

To anyone who wants CPU performance, I recommend getting the 8-core 16" and using it with the internal display only or an eGPU. If you don't need the maximum CPU performance or intensive graphics performance, and must use it with internal and external displays, I recommend getting the 4-core 13" instead. If you're on the fence, get one or both and test them out. Send it back if you're not happy. Apple has a 2 week return policy.

To anyone who already has a 16" MBP, complain to Apple about the bizarre ~20W power draw with any external display attached at any resolution, and the resulting reduction in thermal headroom and CPU performance.

 

[Yurk]

So the apple guy and I were speculating that it could be a software issue that could be fixed down the line.

This happens under Bootcamp as well. So it is mostly likely a hardware / firmware issue. Not a driver / software issue.

 

[rhashem]

This happens under Bootcamp as well. So it is mostly likely a hardware / firmware issue. Not a driver / software issue.

It’s probably a software issue. On my 16”, changing the refresh rate from 59.88 Hz to 56.88 Hz drops the dGPU (in clamshell with an external monitor) from 19W to 5W. Running scaler code in Intel Power Gadget the CPU will sustain 4 GHz on all six cores for at least 5-10 min.

It seemed like Apple fixes the thermal design on the 16” only to **** the bed with the dGPU drivers.

 

[Yurk]

On my 16”, changing the refresh rate from 59.88 Hz to 56.88 Hz drops the dGPU (in clamshell with an external monitor) from 19W to 5W.

That's weird. For me, in clamshell, with 1 external displayport monitor connected (4K@60Hz), power drops to 4Watt, with the internal monitor at 60Hz.

 

[johannnn]

Wow. My MacBook Pro 16" comes this week and I was planning to power an XDR display, but this is worrisome. Can you run some more expirments and post more iStat screenshots? Would like to see the CPU & GPU panel specifically.


Your Dell is just 6.1 Million Pixels.

Two XDR displays would be 40.7 Million Pixels. Having a hard time believing the 16MBP can power that without killing itself.

Dude, running an XDR display with an MBP? Apple's laptops gets the fan starting by just starting Chrome....
I'd get an iMac if I don't need to be portable

 

[sakagura]

I just had to give up on using Macs for anything related to After Effects etc. It didn't matter how much money or hardware I threw at it. Dog slow if I connect external monitors and other peripherals. Just makes me so angry that the performance of Macs has gone down the toilet when only 10 years ago they could compete with other operating systems in nearly all apps. Now we have the most number of last place finishes across a broad range of apps.

Apple macOS 10.15 vs. Windows 10 vs. Ubuntu 19.10 Performance Benchmarks - Phoronix

www.phoronix.com

[automerge]1590265240[/automerge]

To anyone who wants CPU performance, I recommend getting the 8-core 16" and using it with the internal display only or an eGPU.

The problem then comes to cost vs performance. You buy the 16" and then you buy the eGPU. So you add $1000 to the cost of the laptop. Now we are in the $4000 range and still can't match even closely the performance of a $2000 PC desktop or laptop because the graphics drivers on macOS are insultingly bad and nearly all apps suck at using Metal because Metal itself sucks. Most of these big companies like Autodesk and Adobe are having headaches from the user complaints that graphics performance on macOS is crap compared to Windows.

I played with a Razer Blade last month and it ripped through After Effects projects. I load the same projects on the MBP and first I have to wait for After Effects to compile Metal kernels. Then after that the viewport performance is like getting stuck in quicksand. Frustrating. Then rendering...sometimes it starts, sometimes it fails. All because of Metal. In the pre-Metal days these things were completely great on the Mac. We had all this promise Metal was going to change our world and we got a slap in the face instead.

 

[Yurk]

I fully agree with sakagura. It's totally unacceptable. Apple is selling defective devices and calls it normal behavior. The irony is that I have an eGPU, with a $3000 Nvidia Titan V in it, but Apple blocked Nvidia from working in Catalina and Mojave. I can only use the Titan V in Bootcamp, or my old 2012 Macbook or 2014 Mac Mini running High Sierra. My 16" macbook and my 2018 mac mini cannot be downgraded to High Sierra. I work in supercomputing and physics, and need to use CUDA, so I am forced to use a remote machine for CUDA. My dissapointment in Apple deepens with each new version of MacOS. Every time I see Tim Cook giving a keynote, I only see hypocricy and incompetence.

A Ficher Price laptop runs better than my 16" Macbook Pro... It does not overheat, or have power issues. And it is just as capable of not supporting Nvidia CUDA as the brand new Macbook Pros.

 

[sakagura]

I fully agree with sakagura. It's totally unacceptable. Apple is selling defective devices and calls it normal behavior. The irony is that I have an eGPU, with a $3000 Nvidia Titan V in it, but Apple blocked Nvidia from working in Catalina and Mojave. I can only use the Titan V in Bootcamp, or my old 2012 Macbook or 2014 Mac Mini running High Sierra. My 16" macbook and my 2018 mac mini cannot be downgraded to High Sierra. I work in supercomputing and physics, and need to use CUDA, so I am forced to use a remote machine for CUDA. My dissapointment in Apple deepens with each new version of MacOS. Every time I see Tim Cook giving a keynote, I only see hypocricy and incompetence.

Maybe they just forgot about us. As long as popular young photogenic youtubers with almost no professional experience are giving the thumbs up then that's all that matters.

 

[calliex]

I think it isn’t so much as “issue“, but more as to whether it fits your use case. I think what we can all agree on is that there’s a shared power limit between the GPU and CPU, and that the GPU will pull ~20W, and maybe more, depending on what you’re doing. If the MBP reaches its max W (which seems to be ~65W), it will draw less power from the CPU first. Also, what nethead and seangrimes590 has shown should be a good representation of the performance you should be expecting. Again, it depends what exactly you’re using the MBP for.

Also, in an earlier post you said that you wanted a desktop travel station. You could go around the power requirements by putting an iPad on Sidecar. I just tested it, and I’m getting around 8-16W of power draw from the 5500M. Interestingly, you could also force it to use the iGPU (which I also just tried, and works) if you need more performance

do you use gfscardstatus to force the iGPU?

 

[davss]

I've switched from a 15" MBP 2019 to 16" MBP 2019 because of the annoying keyboard and larger screen. I had 3 x DELL U2515H at resolutions 2560 x 1440 connected to the 15" and it wasn't getting as hot as the 16" connected to only ONE OF THESE MONITORS!
When I was leaving my 15" with screen turned off it was completely cold when turned on back all 4 screens (including MBP). The 16" remains constantly hot and am sure it's not a good thing long-term as will shorten life span of this machine. It turns out the 15" 16GB RAM is handling better my external monitors without spinning the fans than much powerful 16" 32GB RAM one which is riddiculous! I spent so much money on it expecting to fix one major really annoying drawback such as crap keyboard and they got me into a more serious one - overheating and loud fans! I'm fed up with Apple - can't return it because was stranded outside the country dur to COVID-19 until this month and the machine was sitting for 3 months in a sealed box and really wanted to start using it... so F disappointing... so many mistakes made by them too for such as high price tag.

The new 16" 2019 MBP runs on Catalina 10.15.5, 2.3 GHz, 8-Core Intel Core i9, 32GB RAM 2667 MHz DD4, 1TB SSD, AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 8GB + Intel UHD Graphics 630 1536MB
(someone mentioned using the lid open explains overheating - as far as remember the first graphics card is used - doing web browsing and coding only so not heave stuff at all).

 

[sauria]

What thunderbolt port are you connecting the external display to? Left side or right side? Apparently charging it on the left side is different than the right in terms of heat.

 

[davss]

What thunderbolt port are you connecting the external display to? Left side or right side? Apparently charging it on the left side is different than the right in terms of heat.

Herewith some details - only using FireFoxx with on average 10 tabs open and no heavy videos or audio on those websites. I've tried turning off hardware acceleration too. I've had the same combinations on my MBP15 with no such issues - it was only spinning fans for very intensive processes which is obvious but not hot when screens were put into sleep. I'm using Neet top quality HDMI 50cm cables connected directly to monitor's HDMI port and never had any issues with them before. There's enough clearance for MBP's fans.



CURRENTLY:


FANS ARE CONSTANTLY SPINNING LOUD + QUITE HOT ABOVE THE TOUCH BAR EVEN WHEN BOTH NATIVE AND EXTERNAL SCREENS PUT TO SLEEP:



MBP 16" - BOTH RIGHT USB-C PORTS:


+ connected Satechi Type-C Dual Multimedia Adapter Dual 4K HDMI, USB-C PD, Gigabit Ethernet, Micro/SD Card Readers, USB 3.0 - Compatible with 2020 MacBook Pro/Air


+ connected to Satechi's PD port original Apple MBP 16" charger


+ connected to Satechi's HDMI 4K 60Hz port 1 x DELL U2515H at resolutions 2560 x 1440


+ connected to Satechi's USB 3 another Kensington 7-port USB 3 HUB with an external power supply


+ connected to Kensington USB 3 HUB - WD 3TB 2.5" USB 3.0 HDD


+ connected to Kensington USB 3 - Apple USB 2.0 keyboard


+ connected to Apple's keyboard USB one mouse




BEFORE:


FANS ARE TEND TO SPIN CONSTANTLY QUIET + OCCASIONALLY LOUD (when run Ms Excel) + QUITE HOT ABOVE THE TOUCH BAR EVEN WHEN BOTH NATIVE AND EXTERNAL SCREENS PUT TO SLEEP:



LEFT TOP USB C port


+ connected UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter


+ connected HDMI-HDMI ports 1 x DELL U2515H at resolutions 2560 x 1440



RIGHT TOP USB C port


+ connected Apple MBP 16" original charger



RIGHT BOTTOM USB C port

+ connected UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter

+ connected to UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter - Kensington 7-port USB 3 HUB with an external mains power supply


+ connected to Kensington USB 3 HUB - WD 3TB 2.5" USB 3.0 HDD


+ connected to Kensington Apple USB 2.0 keyboard


+ connected to Apple's keyboard USB 2.0 one mouse




BEFORE:


FANS ARE TEND TO SPIN FREQUENTLY + QUITE HOT ABOVE THE TOUCH BAR EVEN WHEN BOTH NATIVE AND EXTERNAL SCREENS PUT TO SLEEP:


LEFT TOP USB C port


+ connected UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter


+ connected HDMI-HDMI ports 1 x DELL U2515H at resolutions 2560 x 1440



RIGHT TOP USB C port


+ connected Apple MBP 16" original charger


RIGHT BOTTOM USB C port

+ connected UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter

+ connected to UGREEN USB C -> HDMI adapter - Kensington 7-port USB 3 HUB with an external mains power supply


+ connected to Kensington USB 3 HUB - WD 3TB 2.5" USB 3.0 HDD


+ connected to Kensington Apple USB 2.0 keyboard


+ connected to Apple's keyboard USB 2.0 one mouse




BEFORE (out of thesealed box):


FANS RARELY KICKED IN and mostly during OSX updates but will do further tests as I didn't use the out of the box MBP much and quickly connected the above.


RIGHT TOP USB C port


+ connected Apple MBP 16" original charger



I will connect tomorrow the other two monitors to see what happens as well as will test with a 55" LG TV all via direct HDMI via USB C -> HDMI adapters of course. I'll try different ports swaps as well.

 

[davss]

Granted our 16" configurations aren't the exact same...but I'm curious why your numbers are so different from mine.

What monitor/resolution/refresh rate are you using?

With my 16" MBP plugged into an external monitor, at 2560x1440@60hz, my GPU is drawing 18W - in clamshell.


I am not surprised that running with lid open would be a lot more demanding than expected. IIRC it is computationally more demanding to render 2 different resolutions at different refresh rates.

but you have two cards to do it independently isn't it? I've switched off hardware acceleration in my web browsers so it doesn't use the GPU but my MBP 16" 2019 is still constantly spinning fans while browsing simple text and images websites with only one DELL monitor connected with the same above resolution. It would have been fine if my other MBP 15" 2019 had similar behaviour but it's not getting as hot nor fans are kicking in with 3 identical monitors connected to it so how come a much improved and faster machine wiht additional 16GB RAM is performing worse?

1 x AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB
1 x Intel UHD Graphics 630 1536 MB

It's interesting that Apple in their ads of MBP 16" 2019 are showing off capability of changing native screen's refresh rate when swichted to Scaled - no such thing ever appeared on my MBP nor can change it for my external display no matter what options am using - it's greyed out for the external one and not showing at all for internal. No sure if they've removed it in updates because too many people were experimenting??

Just checked my Displays in About this mac it appears that both displays are using AMD Radeon Pro 5500M 8 GB graphics - not sure why but that's how it's showing atm.

 

[sauria]

Thank you Davis.

This is very informative. Have you used software like Macs Fan Control?

 

[davss]

I've used such software in the past but stopped after it shortened my friend imac's live span becuase it was constatnly overheating and fans were forced to operate on lower RPMs so it fried eventually. This is not a solution but a hack that can lead to hardware failure IMHO. The system should know how to operate the fans according to optimal temperatures for certain hardware - this is by design.

 

[Camarillo Brillo]

Never set 3rd party fan control software to lower fan speeds. Only use them to increase fan speeds for better cooling. If you’re trying to get fan noise under control this is not the way to do it.

That being said, I don’t use 3rd party fan controls either. I’d rather trust the computer to regulate fan speed, than mess with any of that stuff. But if I was going to use them, it would be to increase fan speed for better cooling.

 

[sauria]

I've used such software in the past but stopped after it shortened my friend imac's live span becuase it was constatnly overheating and fans were forced to operate on lower RPMs so it fried eventually. This is not a solution but a hack that can lead to hardware failure IMHO. The system should know how to operate the fans according to optimal temperatures for certain hardware - this is by design.

Sure, but it might be a start until they fix it or you can just live with it as it is.

 

[Yurk]

I found 4 ways to avoid the overheating issue due to high Wattage on Radeon High Side.

1. Use an eGPU (but it has to be AMD. I cannot use my $3000 Nvidia Titan V thanks to #AppleWarOnNvidia).
2. Use clamshell mode with a DisplayPort monitor (avoid HDMI).
3. Use a DisplayLink adapter or DisplayLink dock that works via USB or USB-C cable (not thunderbolt). It works well with ordinary resolutions such as 1080p or 4K. But it is laggy in certain applications with HiDPI resolutions, such as 4K downscaled to 1080p (which is what I need on my 21.5" Asus ProArt PQ22UC monitor).
4. Updgrade the 16" MacBook GPU to the AMD Radeon 5600M. Apparently it uses HBM2 memory and different firmware, so it does not have the same power consumption issues at idle. Apple and AMD fixed the hardware problem, but only for the new +$700 GPU. They had to be aware and acknowledge the problem in order to fix it. I do not know how they have the audacity to claim that it is 'normal behavior' in the 5300M and 5500M models, yet they fixed it in the newer 5600M model. Apple hypocrisy at its best.

As usual, only Class Action Lawsuits prompt Apple to acknowledge and partly address manufacturing defects.

 

[Norbert Mikołajczyk]

I just got a Razer Core X Chroma and Sapphire Pulse RX 5500 XT 4GB to eliminate crippling performance issues (not heat/noise) on my 2019 MBP 15". I got the Sapphire card because it was the cheapest 7nm model and noted to be very quiet in reviews (40dB under load), and I don't actually need GPU performance, I just need to fix/bypass the MBP CPU performance when using an external display.

On heat/noise, it is *slightly* louder than the MBP at idle with internal display (~2100 RPM). I measured the noise level with my iPhone as 28dB next to my ear at my normal sitting position, about 2 feet away from the eGPU.

It is *considerably* quieter than the MBP at max fans (~5900 RPM). The sound is a much lower pitch, too, with larger and lower RPM fans, which you can swap out if you want it even quieter. You can also put it under the desk. I have mine next to the monitor. I plan to swap the eGPU chassis and PSU fans with very quiet Noctua fans.

I ran some tests in a fresh Catalina install to compare CPU performance (Cinebench) with an external 4K display at "looks like 2560x1440" scaled resolution (which draws ~15W up from ~5W with the internal display only), both with the eGPU and the dGPU, as performance is my primary concern (not noise and heat, which may be the cause of the degraded performance).

1. Sustaining 47-50W and 2.7-2.9GHz with external display and eGPU after 95 passes
2. Sustaining 47-50W and 2.7-3.1GHz with external display and eGPU and simultaneous Luxmark eGPU benchmark (no change)
3. Sustaining 34-37W and 2.3-2.5GHz with external display and dGPU
4. Sustaining 26-30W and 1.9-2.1GHz with external display and dGPU and Discord 1-1 video chat in Safari
5. Drops from sustained 40W to 23W with external display and dGPU and simultaneous Luxmark dGPU benchmark

That's a significant drop in CPU performance, from (2) sustained 47-50W and 2.7-3.1GHz even with an extreme GPU benchmark running concurrently, down to (4) 26-30W and 1.9-2.1GHz while doing a 1-1 video conference in Safari. I also tested in Chrome, and the native Discord app, with no significant difference.

You can also see the immediate negative impact on CPU performance when a dGPU benchmark runs concurrently (5), vs no impact at all when an eGPU benchmark runs concurrently (2).

After a couple hours of light to medium work on my regular Catalina install with external display attached to eGPU, CPU frequencies are frequently averaging 3.3-3.5GHz and peaking at 4.1GHz, and the MBP fans are ~2500. Without the eGPU in the past, with the same external display at the same resolution, the system fans would be near max in this scenario and CPU performance would be lower.

I'm replacing this machine with a 16" next week, so I'll run the same tests when I can. I expect that the 16" will be able to sustain 62-67W with internal display OR internal + external via eGPU. I also expect that while the 16" has more thermal headroom to begin with, it also has more power draw to the dGPU (~20W up from ~15W) with ANY external display and at ANY resolution, vs my 15". So it'll be interesting to see how much of an improvement the eGPU gives to CPU performance.

On eGPU usage, it is a bit annoying that the dGPU is still used and still draws power. But at least it only draws ~5W down from ~15W (or ~20W on the 16"). I can't find any way to shut it off completely and use only iGPU and eGPU. If I make the external display "primary", most apps will default to eGPU. Otherwise, I can manually set (via "Get Info") individual apps to prefer eGPU when available. The other annoying thing about eGPU is the need to "safely" disconnect, which basically quits and maybe (or maybe not) relaunches all apps that are currently using the eGPU. But at least, CPU performance is as good as it can get and intensive graphics work on the eGPU will make zero difference to CPU performance.

To anyone who wants CPU performance, I recommend getting the 8-core 16" and using it with the internal display only or an eGPU. If you don't need the maximum CPU performance or intensive graphics performance, and must use it with internal and external displays, I recommend getting the 4-core 13" instead. If you're on the fence, get one or both and test them out. Send it back if you're not happy. Apple has a 2 week return policy.

To anyone who already has a 16" MBP, complain to Apple about the bizarre ~20W power draw with any external display attached at any resolution, and the resulting reduction in thermal headroom and CPU performance.

Thanks for the detailed report, that’s awesome for long and heavy workloads. That’s what I need for my animation work. With Radeon vii egpu the overall performance, temps and noise should be even better than 5600 upgrade only!

 

[sauria]

I found 4 ways to avoid the overheating issue due to high Wattage on Radeon High Side.

1. Use an eGPU (but it has to be AMD. I cannot use my $3000 Nvidia Titan V thanks to #AppleWarOnNvidia).
2. Use clamshell mode with a DisplayPort monitor (avoid HDMI).
3. Use a DisplayLink adapter or DisplayLink dock that works via USB or USB-C cable (not thunderbolt). It works well with ordinary resolutions such as 1080p or 4K. But it is laggy in certain applications with HiDPI resolutions, such as 4K downscaled to 1080p (which is what I need on my 21.5" Asus ProArt PQ22UC monitor).
4. Updgrade the 16" MacBook GPU to the AMD Radeon 5600M. Apparently it uses HBM2 memory and different firmware, so it does not have the same power consumption issues at idle. Apple and AMD fixed the hardware problem, but only for the new +$700 GPU. They had to be aware and acknowledge the problem in order to fix it. I do not know how they have the audacity to claim that it is 'normal behavior' in the 5300M and 5500M models, yet they fixed it in the newer 5600M model. Apple hypocrisy at its best.

As usual, only Class Action Lawsuits prompt Apple to acknowledge and partly address manufacturing defects.

Thank you for posting your detailed information. Can you recommend a display port monitor that has worked well for you with a MacBook Pro?

 

[MonoPoly307]

Got my i9 model in today. The fan noise seems comparable to the i7 base model I had before. I also just checked the temperatures with iStat and here are the results...

Running in clamshell mode (attached a screenshot) and I'm seeing ~6W for the GPU. The system is not fully idle right now either, have Chrome open with a dozen or so tabs, plus a VM and VS Code. This is driving a 3440x1440@120Hz display.

However, with the lid open, GPU power instantly shoots up to 20W. I don't see why the power usage should more than double just because you're using the built-in display + an external monitor. I will say for my use case it's not a huge issue since I only use it in clamshell mode when I'm connected to an external display, but hopefully it's something that can be fixed on the software side.

Hey, I’ve just been reading this thread (from a while back, I realise), and was wondering how you’ve found your 16” MacBook Pro since you posted your initial experiences in December? Have you found that the heating issues and excessive fan noise have been reduced by subsequent MacOS or firmware updates?’

I’m on the cusp of purchasing a 16”, probably with the 2.3GHz i9 processor, which will be used for Logic Pro primarily. Really keen to hear whether the issues were minimised or resolved.

Thanks so much!
Mike

 

[Yurk]

Hey, I’ve just been reading this thread (from a while back, I realise), and was wondering how you’ve found your 16” MacBook Pro since you posted your initial experiences in December? Have you found that the heating issues and excessive fan noise have been reduced by subsequent MacOS or firmware updates?’

I’m on the cusp of purchasing a 16”, probably with the 2.3GHz i9 processor, which will be used for Logic Pro primarily. Really keen to hear whether the issues were minimised or resolved.

Thanks so much!
Mike

I am on the latest MacOS Catalina 10.15.6 and Apple has done nothing to address the issues. They are sweeping it under the rug, as always, until there is a class action.

They are definately aware of the problems, as they have been fixed in the newest Radeon 5600m GPU (they are hardware/firmware issues) which costs $700 more, and Tim Cook personally approved replacement of a customer's macbook with the latest 16" with the 5600m, after his case was escaleted to him.

For everyone else: do not buy the 16" macbook with the defective 5300m or 5500m GPUs. If you did, return it asap and get the one with the 5600m. If it is past the return period, joining a Class Action is probably the only way forward, given Apple's history of denial and gaslighting.