Pool: How many customers will loose Apple because M1 migration

[bobcomer]

I was toting a Dell XPS, but there were a couple of Mac only programs that intrigued me. I saw that I could buy a Macbook Pro, get these programs and not lose anything on the Windows side, so I did that. What part of that is difficult for you to understand? Anyone who thinks you have to be either Windows or Mac, is a moron...

Well said, except I wouldn't say moron, just "my way or the highway" type.

Anyway, to answer cmaier,

My Windows notebook (either an XPS15 with an OLED screen, or my Lenovo X1 Carbon,) both can run VM's quite well.), of course, since my M1 can't do the job. There's no reason you can't have a hackintosh running in a VM. Agreed, it's gray, but if you really need it...

 

[kode54]

I bought a Mac because I wanted macOS. In fact, I prefer both macOS and Linux to Windows, but I continue to use Windows anyway where I need it, for anything that absolutely requires it. I continue to use my Ryzen tower build for Windows things, or for Linux things on occasion. Mostly I'm on my new Mac mini, though.

 

[victor.espina]

I don't think Apple has to worry about a mass exodus. If anything, they will continue to gain new customers.

I think Apple and Microsoft will come up with some kind of licensing arrangement (very soon) that will greatly benefit both parties.

Never done in the past, I see no reason to do it now, honestly.

 

[Apple_Robert]

Never done in the past, I see no reason to do it now, honestly.

The reason to do it now is both companies would benefit greatly. The M1 opens doors that were not practical to open previously.

 

[victor.espina]

I think you all missed the point. The customers I was referring to are mainly programmers and power users that toke the opportunity to migrate to Apple's computers (either because their design or the OS stability) thanks to the Intel processors that made possible to virtualize Windows at native speeds, so they could keep programming with Windows technologies, or working with their PowerPivots in Excel or running that proprietary Windows app. And there were a LOT OF THEM since Apple made the transition.

Those customers will be forced eventually to migrate back to Windows or Linux, because new Apple Silicons won't be able to allow Windows virtualization at usable speeds. Yes, I know a lot of new customers are arriving thanks to the good reviews on the new M1, but I wonder if they would be enough to compensate for the loss of those other power/programmers users.

 

[robco74]

MS doesn't need a specific deal with Apple, they just need to add WoA to the existing license for consumer sales. The unfortunate part for MS is that M1 is very far ahead in terms of performance. Running WoA in a VM on ASi may very well offer better performance than on MS's on Surface Pro X. So far, we don't have any other consumer ARM chips. MS may want to license it for developers who want to deploy to ARM servers, and I'm sure Amazon wouldn't mind either since they've invested quite a bit in Graviton. I'm also interested to see when/if Google gets simulators running in Android Studio. MS has dipped a pinky toe into the water, Apple is diving right in.

In any case, I think Apple is more concerned about hanging on to the creative market. So far, Adobe seems pretty committed, and as long as they can hang onto mobile and web developers, I think they'll be OK.

 

[MBAir2010]

victor.espina​

this issue is hard to explain, so many times this year users who need that 32bit app or Windows only program are advised to purchase another laptop for that situation which could be a financial problem for them later this year when prices will rise due to shortage or chips, etc.

 

[MBAir2010]

In any case, I think Apple is more concerned about hanging on to the creative market. So far, Adobe seems pretty committed, and as long as they can hang onto mobile and web developers, I think they'll be OK.

there are other software companies offering much cheaper and effective pay one price that could effect Adobe soon.
a quick internet search did not support this statement, but this is what the design professionals are harping about these past several years on adobe monthly fees and really nothing new.

 

[MevetS]

It's old news that Apples earned a lot (A LOT) of new users when they made the transition from PowerPC to Intel, because the possibility of running Windows on Apple hardware, either via BootCamp or virtualization.

... snip ..

That is a nice myth. Do you have any actual references that shows this is actually true?

I suspect that they gained new customers because the Mac had a competitive processor and a better OS. But I've no data to back that up either.

As to the question, I doubt that the number of customers lost will be significant.

Cheers.

 

[dk001]

Only reason I own a MB is to run code. Has nothing to do with the chip.

I currently prefer WIndows as all of my devices EXCEPT my MB are touch screen enabled. It is an option I have come to really like and utilize.

 

[victor.espina]

With virtualization support from Parallels being available, this has become less of an issue.

People that want to do Bootcamp are out of luck, but running Windows on Intel Macs was always a bit of a compromise. Issues with unavailable to get use certain windows drivers, no Nvidia support, etc. If you really need to run Windows to its fullest, get a Windows system.

If that support is the ability to run Windows ARM, let me tell you is close to useless. The x86 compatibility layer on Windows 10 ARM is far from usable for real-life tasks. That won't be any solution for any power user or programmer. Not by a long shot.

 

[cmaier]

I suspect that they gained new customers because the Mac had a competitive processor and a better OS. But I've no data to back that up either.

As to the question, I doubt that the number of customers lost will be significant.

Cheers.

I will admit to being someone who switched to mac because of the safety blanket of being able to run windows (which I did, both via parallels and bootcamp, for maybe 3 months). I was very comfortable with Unix (I used many flavors at work for a long time), so from the beginning of OS X I was interested, but x86 made me pull the trigger.

Which is ironic, since I actually was the floating point designer for the PowerPC x704, designed for Apple, and had a Mac Power 6xxx or something sitting in my garage, unused, from when Exponential went under.

 

[victor.espina]

That is a nice myth. Do you have any actual references that shows this is actually true?

I suspect that they gained new customers because the Mac had a competitive processor and a better OS. But I've no data to back that up either.

As to the question, I doubt that the number of customers lost will be significant.

Cheers.

Is not a myth. Far from that. You can find many articles online about it (like this one: Why programmers think Mac OS X is the best operating system to use - Macworld UK), but I can also see it in my own environment: most of my colleagues migrated to Apple at some point in the last years, and this is far from an isolated "tendency". You can find .NET, VFP or SQL Server programmers using Macs in every forum out there.

We are more than you think... we are Legion

 

[victor.espina]

The ability to run Windows on my Macs was a bit of a draw when the Intel switch was happening, but I never bothered doing it for the simple reason that spending all that money on a Mac to run Windows on it seemed financially nonsensical.

I would rather buy a Mac to use it as a Mac, and a cheap Windows system for the few times that I might need it. Which is what I have done.

I realize there are some who value their dual-boot options, but my guess is these are a relatively small number of users, and is one reason Apple are taking their time in this transition. And that is beside the fact that users genuinely needing to dual boot or even run Windows exclusively on their Macs don't actually need to replace their present systems just because Apple are releasing new ones.

I cannot speak for others, but I can speak for my reasons to switch to Mac. Before Apple moved to Intel processors, I used only PC computers and, between the infamous windows degradation and the unavoidable virus / malware contaminations (despite using A/V), I used to spent 4 weeks every year formatting a reinstalling everything on my computer twice a year.

Since I moved to Apple, I've NEVER had to waste that time again, because I only used the virtualized Windows for programming and all the normal tasks (browsing, emailing, copying files from and to pen drives) where done on the MacOS, which worked as an extra security layer to avoid virus contamination on the VM.

As someone pointed to me yesterday, current Windows version are far more stable that the ones on the early 2K, but nevertheless, using Mac computers with virtualized Windows has allowed me to be far more productive that never before with a PC machine.

 

[Maconplasma]

Apple risks losing more experienced users that require x64 compatibility and Windows/Linux multiboot while possibly gaining more casual users that only need a better iPad with MacOS. Seeing ads on Facebook marketplace for people trading their Macbook M1 for Windows laptop.

Then they didn't want a Mac in the first place.

 

[Gnattu]

I cannot speak for others, but I can speak for my reasons to switch to Mac. Before Apple moved to Intel processors, I used only PC computers and, between the infamous windows degradation and the unavoidable virus / malware contaminations (despite using A/V), I used to spent 4 weeks every year formatting a reinstalling everything on my computer twice a year.

Since I moved to Apple, I've NEVER had to waste that time again, because I only used the virtualized Windows for programming and all the normal tasks (browsing, emailing, copying files from and to pen drives) where done on the MacOS, which worked as an extra security layer to avoid virus contamination on the VM.

As someone pointed to me yesterday, current Windows version are far more stable that the ones on the early 2K, but nevertheless, using Mac computers with virtualized Windows has allowed me to be far more productive that never before with a PC machine.

Unless you rely on something like Visual Studio heavily you should be OK without Windows to do programming, like lots of other developers.

 

[quarkysg]

Unless you rely on something like Visual Studio heavily you should be OK without Windows to do programming, like lots of other developers.

IMHO, getting a Mac just to do Windows apps development doesn’t make economic sense. I would think most developers getting Mac(s) are mainly targeting macOS and/or iOS (which is probably the majority) apps.

 

[jjjoseph]

99.99% of the world does not care and would never notice a transition from Intel CISC to M1 RISC... NATIVE architecture VM's, INTEL BOOTCAMP account for a very small portion of the MacOS user population. Have you been to an Apple store?. You wait in line for hours and see 200+ people be helped, maybe 20 are superusers.. tech people, media pros, coders, programmers etc.. Also coding and programing are moving over fine.. BREW works great, Docker already m1 native. M1 VSCODE is great!

Everyone I know in the programming and coding world that is using windows and has windows only software, does not care about MacOS at all.. They stay in windows or Linux and never talk about MacOS.

I would usually be 100% with the GRIPE, Apple screwed me and everyone else over on Butterfly keyboard and the Apple 8S aluminum crappy phone that shatters in high winds, but M1 is different.. It is actually a better architecture... I wish the GPU was as cutting edge as the CPU, but that is a different discussion.


iPhone/Apple Consumers questions when told switch from Intel...

1. Does it turn on?...
Yes, of course it is just like any other laptop.

2. Does it have Facebook?
Yes, it has many broswers that support Facebook and all its feature.

3. Does it sync my iPhone?
Absolutely, you would not notice any different from the last generation laptop.

Then why are you bothering me with all this technical mumbo jumbo..

 

[SlCKB0Y]

However, I do agree that Apple's HVF need lots of improvements to match Linux KVM level. Linux kernel provides lots of para-virtualization apis for network, filesystem, graphics, which is either lacking or only implemented by commercial 3rd party software on macOS.

I'd be interested to know if the underlying code for HVF comes from the FreeBSD Bhyve project. It would kind of make sense for them to use this rather than reinventing the wheel and I'm pretty sure Bhyve supports VirtIO, so maybe Apple will make this available at a later date?

 

[SlCKB0Y]

If we want to go by anecdotes, from fellow Mac users I know, some are more annoyed with the changes in Big Sur than with Apple Silicon - notably, software incompatibilities due to dropping support for kexts. These changes apply to Intel Macs as well though, and it should be worked out eventually.

Over the many years I've used Macs, the only times I've had a full system crash was as a result of one of two things:
1. Bad RAM
2. Third part kext drivers.

Aside from the reliability issue with third party kexts, there are serious security implications.

 

[Spindel]

Well they did say in the latest financial report that about 50% of M1 sales where new mac users…

…so /thread

 

[cmaier]

Well they did say in the latest financial report that about 50% of M1 sales where new mac users…

…so /thread

Typical macrumors poster: “i will never buy another mac because [whatever perceived slight]!“ and ”This new mac sucks because it will be outdate because of [perceived reason] in 5 years, and I always keep my macs for at least 10!”

I’m sure Apple is really crying losing these folks as customers.

 

[Spindel]

Typical macrumors poster: “i will never buy another mac because [whatever perceived slight]!“ and ”This new mac sucks because it will be outdate because of [perceived reason] in 5 years, and I always keep my macs for at least 10!”

I’m sure Apple is really crying losing these folks as customers.

It's not only macrumor it's all tech forums.

What I have learned over the years is anything that causes an outcry on a tech forum (be it positive or negative) the opposite will happened in reality.

If tech forums where right, Zune would be ubiquitous with MP3 player and iPhone would be but a memory when they removed the head phone jack.

Other apple related favorites that would all have spelled the doom of apple are:

- Removal of serial and parallel ports on macs
- Removal of floppy drive
- Removal of optical drive
- Never adopting blu-ray
- AirPods
- AirPods Pro
- Apple Watch
- iPad

 

[Colstan]

Typical macrumors poster: “i will never buy another mac because [whatever perceived slight]!“ and ”This new mac sucks because it will be outdate because of [perceived reason] in 5 years, and I always keep my macs for at least 10!”

I’m sure Apple is really crying losing these folks as customer

My personal favorite is whenever Apple releases a new point release of macOS and it includes additional emojis. Inevitably, someone shouts "Why is Apple wasting time on new emojis instead of fixing my [arcane edge case technical issue]! I'm going back to Snow Leopard!" I'm not sure where they get the notion that the art team is somehow taking valuable time away from the OS software engineers.

 

[Phil A.]

I thought I needed x86 because most of our customers are windows / .net based and I have previously used virtual machines a lot for development.

However, going forwards the plan is to simply have an Intel NUC to support development of our legacy customer apps until we migrate them to .net core / 5 / 6 so everything can be done on Apple Silicon Macs.

It’s something I’ve wanted to do for a while and Apple have provided the incentive to finally get it done

Apple may lose a few customers but I think they’ll gain many more because the machines are simply incredible