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Possible major blow for Huawei Smartphones

Shanghaichica

Shanghaichica

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I wonder if the UK will still go ahead and use Huwawei for the 5G network infrastructure after this ban.
 
Tsepz

Tsepz

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This is pretty much the death blow...
Arm Suspends Business with Huawei - Future Chip Development In Jeopardy
In the latest event in the quickly moving saga that is Huawei’s technology export blacklisting by the United States Government, the BBC has published a report this morning claiming that IP vendor Arm has “suspend business” with Huawei and its subsidiaries. If this is correct, then it would represent a massive setback for Huawei’s hardware development efforts, as the company and its HiSilicon chip design subsidiary rely heavily on Arm’s IP for its products.

According to the BBC News report, Arm has almost entirely severed ties with Huawei, with the company instructing employees that they are not to “provide support, delivery technology (whether software, code, or other updates), engage in technical discussions, or otherwise discuss technical matters with Huawei, HiSilicon or any of the other named entities”.

Huawei, for its part, is one of Arm’s top customers and a close ecosystem partner, shipping countless numbers of chips and devices with Arm IP in it every year. The company is a leading-edge implementer of new Arm CPU and GPU IP, and in the last few years has been the first vendor to ship chips using Arm’s latest Cortex-A series CPUs. Furthermore, via HiSilicon, Huawei is also an ARMv8 CPU architectural licensee. As a result of their close workings with Arm, Huawei has built up a significant amount of their product portfolio around Arm technologies, including their Kirin consumer SoCs and Kunpeng server SoCs. So being cut off from Arm would touch virtually every aspect of Huawei’s hardware business, from smartphones to networking gear.


Meanwhile Arm, for its part, is headquartered in the UK and not the US. However as a multi-national company, Arm develops its technology around the world, including its major design centers in San Jose and Austin. As a result, according to the report, Arm has deemed that its designs contain “US origin technology”, and as a result make it subject to the US technology blacklist.
Click to expand...
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1437...h-huawei?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
 
T

TedDaly72RIP

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Tsepz said:
This is pretty much the death blow...
Arm Suspends Business with Huawei - Future Chip Development In Jeopardy

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1437...h-huawei?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Click to expand...

Typical BBC: they ran a piece the other day listing all the external tech Huawei phones rely on and they didn't mention ARM once! By my estimates, I'd say there at least 3-4 separate chips with ARM cores in every smartphone.

This - if it sticks - would normally kill Huawei's smartphone business dead... but being China, and given that the ARM cores are just licensed IP, they will simply steal the IP which they already hold aplenty, and repackage it as their own design. In the long term that would seriously be in China's interest, because they could provide the stolen IP to every other Chinese firm, and really there's little we can do about it.

There is a precedent to this. Russia in the 1980s and 90s was banned from importing 16-bit CPUs, but they simply reversed engineered samples from the west and produced their own versions.
 
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pika2000

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Okay, looks like Huawei smartphone business is practically dead. No Play Store is one thing, but no ARM license means no Kirin chips, and that means no hardware.

Unless there’s a deal being done by China with Trump, Huawei is dead internationally.

*sigh, the choice is either Nokia or Samsung now... Until this China vs US thing is resolved, there’s no guarantee on the rest of Chinese OEMs either.
 
stylinexpat

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They pretty much have till the end of the year to reach a deal before their powder runs dry.


The BBC’s report indicates that Arm’s suspension only involves further technology transfers and development, and that the company can continue to manufacture chips based on technology they already have – including chips that have finished development and are coming on the market later this year. In which case Huawei wouldn’t immediately feel the impact of the suspension, as the long lead time on chip design means it would be a bit until that development pipeline runs dry. However it’s not as clear what this means for HiSilicon’s Arm architecture license as a whole, and if and how that could be rescinded.


This trade war is going to get very very ugly if these next steps are also taken.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/art...les-back-restrictions-huawei-allowing-chinese

Some good points made here about this

 
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Tsepz

Tsepz

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stylinexpat said:
They pretty much have till the end of the year to reach a deal before their powder runs dry.


The BBC’s report indicates that Arm’s suspension only involves further technology transfers and development, and that the company can continue to manufacture chips based on technology they already have – including chips that have finished development and are coming on the market later this year. In which case Huawei wouldn’t immediately feel the impact of the suspension, as the long lead time on chip design means it would be a bit until that development pipeline runs dry. However it’s not as clear what this means for HiSilicon’s Arm architecture license as a whole, and if and how that could be rescinded.


This trade war is going to get very very ugly if these next steps are also taken.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/art...les-back-restrictions-huawei-allowing-chinese

Some good points made here about this

Click to expand...
This is brilliant.

Very good points. Things are about to get VERY interesting.

The tech indusas we know it is either about to see a huge shake-up or nothing (if this all gets sorted out now).
 
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stylinexpat

stylinexpat

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Shanghaichica said:
Samsung are the winners here. Apple may suffer if China retaliate.
Click to expand...

I could see Apple taking a 30% hit in China. I think they said China consists of 18% of Apple’s market share. Assuming that Apple could take a 6% hit this coming quarter I think. This is assuming 30% of the Chinese in China are patriotic which I think is being conservative.
 
jamezr

jamezr

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Shanghaichica said:
Samsung are the winners here. Apple may suffer if China retaliate.
Click to expand...
This to me is the biggest threat to Apple.

Anti-Apple sentiment in China is on the rise
BuzzFeed News had detailed the growing Apple boycott movement earlier this month, and matters are only getting worse. A South China Morning Post report this morning is offering more perspective on the anti-Apple sentiment. Chinese consumers are feeling that they should support domestic brands instead of buying products from foreign companies.

"There is a calling from my heart that I need to show support for Chinese brands, especially in the trade war climate," one consumer told the outlet. "It's kind of embarrassing to pull an iPhone out of your pocket nowadays when all the company executives use Huawei," another telecom worker said.
Click to expand...

https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/05/22/the-apple-boycott-in-china-is-getting-worse.aspx
 
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Healer Flame

Healer Flame

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Best chance for google to kill one arch rival and save its Pixel phones :) . Huawei climbed too fast to the top beating 2 US giant Google and apple so it has to go.
 
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thekev

thekev

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Truefan31 said:
Stuff like this is why people like Apple, and to an extent the Google Pixel line now. 1st party support.
Click to expand...

Also if they're going to buy Android, they may want plain Android rather than a lot of vendor specific bloatware and other nonsense.
 
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stylinexpat

stylinexpat

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thekev said:
Also if they're going to buy Android, they may want plain Android rather than a lot of vendor specific bloatware and other nonsense.
Click to expand...
They may also want the option to save info to their smartphones instead of Google's Cloud servers ;)
 
JPack

JPack

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Tsepz said:
This is pretty much the death blow...
Arm Suspends Business with Huawei - Future Chip Development In Jeopardy

https://www.anandtech.com/show/1437...h-huawei?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Click to expand...

Nah. Huawei has a full, legal ARM license from ARM China. Huawei will be able to continue developing and using future IP from ARM. This means selling outside China too.

In 2018, ARM sold 51% of its China joint venture to Chinese investors. Right now, all Chinese firms like Huawei and Xiaomi obtain a license from ARM China instead of the UK or US. Legally, ARM China has access rights to ARM Holdings IP.

Huawei wasn't kidding when they said they were planning and prepared for this day. A lot of the recent news has been fired from the hip. For instance, the news about Panasonic and Infineon were completely wrong and both continue to do business with Huawei.

Nikkei: Arm's China joint venture ensures access to vital technology
[doublepost=1558633870][/doublepost]
stylinexpat said:
They pretty much have till the end of the year to reach a deal before their powder runs dry.


The BBC’s report indicates that Arm’s suspension only involves further technology transfers and development, and that the company can continue to manufacture chips based on technology they already have – including chips that have finished development and are coming on the market later this year. In which case Huawei wouldn’t immediately feel the impact of the suspension, as the long lead time on chip design means it would be a bit until that development pipeline runs dry. However it’s not as clear what this means for HiSilicon’s Arm architecture license as a whole, and if and how that could be rescinded.


This trade war is going to get very very ugly if these next steps are also taken.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/art...les-back-restrictions-huawei-allowing-chinese

Some good points made here about this

Click to expand...

It's sensationalist news. Right now, IP legally flows from:

  • ARM Holdings -> ARM China -> Semi companies (e.g. HiSilicon)
  • HiSilicon licenses from ARM China and isn't subject to any restrictions

After the ZTE ban, Chinese investors bought out ARM China for $775M. They clearly saw this coming. China even has a full legal license to x86 through AMD because of a similar AMD-China JV structure.

At this point, the problem isn't hardware or associated licensing. Huawei has that covered. The pain point is probably the Play Store, but Aptoide solves that.

Ren Zhengfei is pretty humble and honest in interviews. When he says the ban won't affect 5G gear but might have a slight impact on their smartphone business, I can see why.
[doublepost=1558634259][/doublepost]
Shanghaichica said:
I wonder if the UK will still go ahead and use Huwawei for the 5G network infrastructure after this ban.
Click to expand...

Yes, confirmed by EE.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...h-5g-network-but-halts-handsets-idUSKCN1SS0SQ
 
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stylinexpat

stylinexpat

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Something to share.. CEO of Huawei is actually a very positive person and looks up to many of the American companies like Google. Will have to see though how things work out for him though 2-3 months down the road.


This is also good.

 
Tsepz

Tsepz

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Jan 24, 2013
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JPack said:
Nah. Huawei has a full, legal ARM license from ARM China. Huawei will be able to continue developing and using future IP from ARM. This means selling outside China too.

In 2018, ARM sold 51% of its China joint venture to Chinese investors. Right now, all Chinese firms like Huawei and Xiaomi obtain a license from ARM China instead of the UK or US. Legally, ARM China has access rights to ARM Holdings IP.

Huawei wasn't kidding when they said they were planning and prepared for this day. A lot of the recent news has been fired from the hip. For instance, the news about Panasonic and Infineon were completely wrong and both continue to do business with Huawei.

Nikkei: Arm's China joint venture ensures access to vital technology
[doublepost=1558633870][/doublepost]

It's sensationalist news. Right now, IP legally flows from:

  • ARM Holdings -> ARM China -> Semi companies (e.g. HiSilicon)
  • HiSilicon licenses from ARM China and isn't subject to any restrictions

After the ZTE ban, Chinese investors bought out ARM China for $775M. They clearly saw this coming. China even has a full legal license to x86 through AMD because of a similar AMD-China JV structure.

At this point, the problem isn't hardware or associated licensing. Huawei has that covered. The pain point is probably the Play Store, but Aptoide solves that.

Ren Zhengfei is pretty humble and honest in interviews. When he says the ban won't affect 5G gear but might have a slight impact on their smartphone business, I can see why.
[doublepost=1558634259][/doublepost]

Yes, confirmed by EE.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...h-5g-network-but-halts-handsets-idUSKCN1SS0SQ
Click to expand...

We need more people like you around, thanks a lot for explaining.
 
P

pika2000

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thekev said:
Also if they're going to buy Android, they may want plain Android rather than a lot of vendor specific bloatware and other nonsense.
Click to expand...
In the past, probably. But now, plain Android are quite far behind in terms of practical features. Example, twin/dual apps which allow users to have two separate messaging account (eg WhatsApp). This is really useful in dual SIM Phones. Stock and Android One devices cannot do this, while the rest (Samsung, MiUI, EMUI, etc) can. Coupled with some OEMs optimization (eg. Oxygen OS performance, EMUI battery life), they are now actually preferable than stock.
 
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Tsepz

Tsepz

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pika2000 said:
In the past, probably. But now, plain Android are quite far behind in terms of practical features. Example, twin/dual apps which allow users to have two separate messaging account (eg WhatsApp). This is really useful in dual SIM Phones. Stock and Android One devices cannot do this, while the rest (Samsung, MiUI, EMUI, etc) can. Coupled with some OEMs optimization (eg. Oxygen OS performance, EMUI battery life), they are now actually preferable than stock.
Click to expand...

Agreed.

The real benefits in Android are found in the custom Android UIs.
 
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