Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

MBAir2010

macrumors 604
May 30, 2018
6,975
6,354
there
For the moment, I’m sort of fixated on all the plastic waste Nestle generate — and have the temerity to charge people for the water within — to fret over whether you’re using a Silicon Mac. :D
good for you and our planet!
That is a shame in neslte and others, we dont need another plastic product since the polymers dont disintegrate, and i make an effort not to purchase certain or any plastics.

hopefully a research lab outside Madrid is studying a maggot that eats plastic bags without emitting any harmful chloroformic waste that might help the plastic bag problem.

i can use my early intel mac now to gather research in this after i finish trying to figure out some Dreamweaver cs4 image functions.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheShortTimer
good for you and our planet!

It comes down to a couple of things:

1) My interdisciplinary background is urban sustainability and phytoremediation of brownfields and greyfields. What I’m doing, voluntarily, is rescuing from liminal/edge areas (think of places where people dump things and businesses pollute) and midwifing a canary-in-coalmine specialist species now listed as endangered in Canada. I’m spending considerable effort understanding the multiple, human-induced conditions giving rise to that species (I count no fewer than three major, paradigmatic conditions — all put there by humans for long-term and destructive economic activity — which decimate their population counts across three different, seemingly unrelated ecosystems through which they must migrate annually).

2) I help to look after kids who’ve adopted me as their aunt. They are forty or so years younger than me. I am bearing witness to the long-tail impacts of our own consumer behaviour, but I won’t live long enough to know how much worse things will get. They likely will. So I see them and am reminded, persistently, of the work which needs to be done — not just by me, but by everyone (and penalizing those to refuse to facilitate or participate in that work). But if I’m going to talk the talk, then I am also walking that talk to lead by example, as I know how.


That is a shame in neslte and others, we dont need another plastic product since the polymers dont disintegrate, and i make an effort not to purchase certain or any plastics.

For water, which (aside from coffee) is about all I drink, I am fortunate to live in a municipality whose water supply is some of the best and safest (a by-product of being the most polluted and foul about 110 years ago and working to remediate that in the 1920s). I have used the same few hard-plastic drinking bottles I bought back in the early aughts.

This means they have bisphenol-A (BPA) in their resins. Considering how we all have plastic in our bodies and, apparently, in our brains, for me to switch drinking containers now, unless one finally breaks, is to shut the barn doors a decade after the horses escaped. (When that day comes, I’ll look for stainless steel bottles.)

But in using the same, nigh-indestructible Naglene bottles from the early aughts (and in their delightful, transparent hues), I’ve kept, literally, thousands of plastic, single-use water bottles from being consumed. And I know where the water I’m drinking is coming from, always.

hopefully a research lab outside Madrid is studying a maggot that eats plastic bags without emitting any harmful chloroformic waste that might help the plastic bag problem.

That, along with a genetically altered version of mealworms which are able to metabolize styrene, offers some intrigue and possibility, but at the scale-up we’d need, this would probably not dent what we’ve already dumped onto the lands and waters. And at that scale-up, this raises new imbalances of a proliferation of those specialist species on a biome ill-equipped to handle that (think: invasives).

i can use my early intel mac now to gather research in this after i finish trying to figure out some Dreamweaver cs4 image functions.

There you go! :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheShortTimer

Nils Zaayenga

macrumors member
Jan 27, 2023
41
92
Nice! Those are fairly rare.

(This is what happens when I praise someone too soon....)

Replace Monterey with Mojave (DosDude1 installer + patch, or OCLP) carbon-copy-cloned to an HFS+ partition, and it'll run considerably faster and be compatible with faster 32bit software. Use Waterfox, Basilisk, and Chromium-legacy as Safari replacements.
Hello everyone.

First of all, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. As long as it's not too radical. It wasn't😁.

As you can see in the forum, I have quite an Apple collection.
So I use different MacOS, sometimes 2 MacOS per computer on different partitions.
The MacOS I use are: 8.5, 9.2.2, 10.0.3, 10.4.11, 10.4.12 (Shuriken), 10.5.8 (Sorbet Leopard), 10.6.8, 10.11.6, 10.13.6, 12.7.6, 14.6.1.
Every MacOS has its charm.

Every Mac that can run the OCLP is also updated for me. Not always up to the highest MacOS (14.6.1) but always at least MacOS 12.7.6. All computers from 2010 onwards run very well and stable with MacOS. Another advantage is an up-to-date OS and a modern, up-to-date browser (Google Chrome).

The limitations of OCLP from my point of view are
- some apps require better/newer hardware
- the Mac needs some time to run (3-5 minutes). Then all Macs run very well and fast enough for me. It may be due to the fact that the ICloud pulls its updates in the time frame.

However, my Macs are not computers that I use for work, so only privately.
My employer has provided me with a Dell XPS 17-inch for work.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
28,365
So, I have questions…

Between yesterday and oh, about 10 mins ago, THIS appeared and I didn't see it!

2024-08-28 12.12.57.jpg

I'm talking about the Stormtrooper! It wasn't there when I went to bed last night! Between my 20 year old and my 16 year old, I'm betting the 16 year old knows something about this!

SMH!!!!!
 
So, I have questions…

Between yesterday and oh, about 10 mins ago, THIS appeared and I didn't see it!

View attachment 2410243

I'm talking about the Stormtrooper! It wasn't there when I went to bed last night! Between my 20 year old and my 16 year old, I'm betting the 16 year old knows something about this!

SMH!!!!!

TK421 is letting you know his radio transmitter is not working.
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
453
269
Give it a rest and let us enjoy our machines the way we want.
Apple ever get around to fixing the introduced "feature" in Monterey that borked 27" display monitors?
First of all, everyone is allowed to have an opinion. As long as it's not too radical. It wasn't😁.

Every Mac that can run the OCLP is also updated for me. Not always up to the highest MacOS (14.6.1) but always at least MacOS 12.7.6. All computers from 2010 onwards run very well and stable with MacOS. Another advantage is an up-to-date OS and a modern, up-to-date browser (Google Chrome).

The limitations of OCLP from my point of view are
- some apps require better/newer hardware
The major limitation of OCLP is that, if used to install Catalina or higher, you are permanently denied the use of 32bit software, nearly all of which is much smaller and insanely faster than current, bloated, subscription-model suites. E.g., Photoshop CS6 Extended will launch in less than three seconds off a rotational drive in High Sierra on a vanilla i5 2011 iMac; such a machine would run like a slug using an APFS operating-system, meaning you'd risk tearing delicate ribbon cables opening the case to put in an SSD (and it'll still run only passably without 32bit goodies). Basically, it's a "pet trick" for old machines that professionals don't use...but non-professionals don't need bleeding-edge subscription software, so it's a trick in search of a niche. (Meanwhile, the ability to run unapproved older operating systems on newer hardware -- such as Mojave on intel-chip 2020 iMacs and 16" macbooks, goes unaddressed.) Half the time, you won't get hardware-acceleration enabled either.

You'll also find it difficult if not impossible to create a portable, bootable backup of your operating-system; you'll only have Time Machine, or whatever weak-sauce variant CCC has been relegated to now.
- the Mac needs some time to run (3-5 minutes). Then all Macs run very well and fast enough for me. It may be due to the fact that the ICloud pulls its updates in the time frame.
That's frankly terrible, and I suspect something has good wrong.. (If it's overheating struggling with that, I recommend MacsFanDisplay for all blackback and silverback iMacs, as well as Macbooks to 2015.)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bobesch

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
28,365
The major limitation of OCLP is that, if used to install Catalina or higher, you are permanently denied the use of 32bit software, nearly all of which is much smaller and insanely faster than current, bloated, subscription-model suites. E.g., Photoshop CS6 Extended will launch in less than three seconds off a rotational drive in High Sierra on a vanilla i5 2011 iMac; such a machine would run like a slug using an APFS operating-system, meaning you'd risk tearing delicate ribbon cables opening the case to put in an SSD (and it'll still run only passably without 32bit goodies). Basically, it's a "per trick" for old machines that professionals don't use...but non-professionals don't need bleeding-edge subscription software, so it's a trick in search of a niche. (Meanwhile, the ability to run unapproved older operating systems on newer hardware -- such as Mojave on intel-chip 2020 iMacs and 16" macbooks, goes unaddressed.)
I'll just say that I don't need 32-bit apps. I get your justification, but it's a lot like the argument for running Tiger on PowerPC so you get access to Classic.

While I don't hate 32-bit apps like I hate OS9/Classic, there's really nothing I need them for. Office 2019, Adobe CC24, Vivaldi and some of my other apps work just fine on my Mac Pro. Admittedly, I have 56GB of ram to spare, I never shut my Mac down (full power 24/7, screens only allowed to sleep) and I rarely quit apps - so a 3-5 second app load time gain really isn't worth abandoning the features of running later apps for me.

I do consider myself to be a professional. At least, I get paid for the design and layout work I do. So I maintain a subscription because I want to. It makes it convenient to switch back and forth between my own Mac Pro and my work M2 MBP. But I don't actually NEED it.

You'll also find it difficult if not impossible to create a portable, bootable backup of your operating-system; you'll only have Time Machine, or whatever weak-sauce variant CCC has been relegated to now.

This is not what I am finding. But my CCC backups are al sparse drive images and not sparse bundles. Perhaps it's sparse bundles you actually have the issue with, IDK. But that's a major reason I abandoned Time Machine for my backups. Pretty easy to move sparse drive images around, even on SMB shares.

I suppose that if I were a normal person and only turned my Mac on when I needed it, quit apps when I was done with them and put speed above feature sets then I might be aligned with your thinking.

But I'm not.
 
Last edited:

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Aug 31, 2011
29,603
28,365
So, I have questions…

Between yesterday and oh, about 10 mins ago, THIS appeared and I didn't see it!

View attachment 2410243

I'm talking about the Stormtrooper! It wasn't there when I went to bed last night! Between my 20 year old and my 16 year old, I'm betting the 16 year old knows something about this!

SMH!!!!!
As I suspected!!!

It was my 16 year old who left the Stormtrooper there! She boldly admitted to the deed and wondered why I was even bothering to ask!!!!
 

TheShortTimer

macrumors 68040
Mar 27, 2017
3,249
5,638
London, UK
The major limitation of OCLP is that, if used to install Catalina or higher, you are permanently denied the use of 32bit software, nearly all of which is much smaller and insanely faster than current, bloated, subscription-model suites.

I installed Catalina using the DosDude patcher, not OCLP and I can boot into earlier macOS versions and run 32bit software when desired but on the machine in question I predominantly use Catalina on a daily basis without struggling on that front.

E.g., Photoshop CS6 Extended will launch in less than three seconds off a rotational drive in High Sierra on a vanilla i5 2011 iMac; such a machine would run like a slug using an APFS operating-system, meaning you'd risk tearing delicate ribbon cables opening the case to put in an SSD (and it'll still run only passably without 32bit goodies). Basically, it's a "per trick" for old machines that professionals don't use...but non-professionals don't need bleeding-edge subscription software, so it's a trick in search of a niche. (Meanwhile, the ability to run unapproved older operating systems on newer hardware -- such as Mojave on intel-chip 2020 iMacs and 16" macbooks, goes unaddressed.)

Arguably, no-one really needs bleeding-edge subscription software that has to be renewed per annum. It's model that I loathe - I refuse to go down that route and I think that it's designed to reduce our agency regarding our relationship with software (and content generally) with a view to forcing consumers into becoming comfortable with renting instead of outright (licence) ownership.

The fragility of the 2011 i5 iMac model is a statement on Apple's design choices rather than successive macOS releases because that means replacing a failed spinner just so that you can continue with High Sierra is equally problematic.

You'll also find it difficult if not impossible to create a portable, bootable backup of your operating-system; you'll only have Time Machine, or whatever weak-sauce variant CCC has been relegated to now.

ddrescue can clone nearly everything - very easily and effectively. :)
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
453
269
While I don't hate 32-bit apps like I hate OS9/Classic,
That's mostly an apples-and-oranges comparison; 1990s Macs really were limited in what they could do, while machines were clearly faster than humans at virtually everything by circa 2011, and only by artificially hobbling them with sluggifying "updates" could an OEM manage to prompt people to throw them out before hardware failure. Most software in its infancy in the 1990s was fully mature by the twentytens. E.g., Adobe CS6 debuted 22 years after Photoshop 1.0 launched. (You'd be surprised how little most core software has changed in the last ten years, with much of it being the same aside from new coats of paint requiring newer operating-system versions to launch, and/or online-account activation monetizing and meeple tracking.)
there's really nothing I need them for. Office 2019, Adobe CC24, Vivaldi and some of my other apps work just fine on my Mac Pro. Admittedly, I have 56GB of ram to spare, I never shut my Mac down (full power 24/7, screens only allowed to sleep) and I rarely quit apps - so a 3-5 second app load time gain really isn't worth abandoning the features of running later apps for me.

I do consider myself to be a professional. At least, I get paid for the design and layout work I do. So I maintain a subscription because I want to. It makes it convenient to switch back and forth between my own Mac Pro and my work M2 MBP. But I don't actually NEED it.
As far as I know, my brother-in-law is still making a living doing layout on a G4 tower. (It's astonishing how little horsepower is needed when video-rendering isn't involved. I imagine hardware OEMs are a little miffed their customers aren't clamoring for 4K in quite the droves they'd hoped for, given that the average human eyeball can scarcely tell the difference betweek 2k and 4k.)
...my CCC backups are al sparse drive images and not sparse bundles. Perhaps it's sparse bundles you actually have the issue with, IDK. But that's a major reason I abandoned Time Machine for my backups. Pretty easy to move sparse drive images around, even on SMB shares.
Once upon a time, CarbonCopyCloner had one job: creating bootable backups. If they can't (or won't) do that anymore, then they should remove "copy" and cloner" from their name.
I suppose that if I were a normal person and only turned my Mac on when I needed it, quit apps when I was done with them and put speed above feature sets then I might be aligned with your thinking. But I'm not.
I use a 2013 27" i7 w/32gb ram and a 512gb ssd just like you use yours: it's on 24/7, and I never quit things either. Office19 and Adobe20 run in Mojave, and any found-file that won't open in them will in LibreOffice24. One of these days I'll replace it with a same-spec'd 2019 i9, just so I can watch it wait for me faster.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: foliovision

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
453
269
Here's the mid-2011 iMac 21.5".
View attachment 2411220
Running current Sonoma with OCLP. i7-2600S and 32GB RAM.
The two Orico USB 3 hubs are as follows: lower one plugged into the iMac USB bus to give front-mounted ports and a power-on indicator. Top one connected to ElGato Thunderbolt 2 dock to give USB 3 speed.
It's a very rare 2011 21.5" that has an i7.

(Is hardware-acceleration working?)
 

bobesch

macrumors 68020
Oct 21, 2015
2,142
2,220
Kiel, Germany
Every Mac that can run the OCLP is also updated for me. Not always up to the highest MacOS (14.6.1) but always at least MacOS 12.7.6. All computers from 2010 onwards run very well and stable with MacOS. Another advantage is an up-to-date OS and a modern, up-to-date browser (Google Chrome).
That's kind of my way, too.
Mojave (especially for 32bit-apps and speed) is still my mostly used macOS. (On unsupportes Macs by help of @dosdude1 's patcher and on those unsupported Macs I keep the drive as GUID/HFS+, to have the option of a bootable clone-backup and TDM-accessibility.)
On my 'newest' late-early-Intels (2013/13) I also started with OCLP and MultiBoot to stay in touch with latest macOS support etc.
@Nils Zaayenga take care of temperature-control on the cduo-MBP and also the 2010-MBP, because they might have faulty GPUs that are prone to fail on overheating. (Therefore I always use an iLapStand etc.)
Starting with Calalina there's indexing of photos/media that can be shut off manually through Terminal
to significantly reduce CPU activity, heat and speed up the machine. [#15]

You'll also find it difficult if not impossible to create a portable, bootable backup of your operating-system; you'll only have Time Machine, or whatever weak-sauce variant CCC has been relegated to now.
Yep, loosing the old-fashioned way of having a bootable clone-backup is the real downside of drinking the APFS-CoolAid.
I also stay with Mojave because of that reason.
On unsupported Macs with DD1-patched Mojave I even stay with GUID/HFS+.
On the newer ones for the sake of OCLP I chose to migrate to APFS.

With macOS11 and beyond one has to pretty start thinking different in behalf of backup-procedures, restores etc, especially when dealing with OCLP and unsupported-macOS, where in an instant both OCLP- and macOS- updates might render the whole system unbootable.
I wouldn't blame CCC for the whole misery. It's still a life-saver to make fast backups of the (system-)volumes (and a lot of more tasks) despite the fragile option of a bootable-clone-backup like with HFS+.
(I always have an encrypted USB3-connected external SSD for plug&save my personal documents with CCC).
Restoring the System after fatal crashes mean currently, that I do reinstall macOS on new volume and migrate the old system-volume via MigrationAssistent. This has so far in all critical instances worked for me.

Because of the delicate stability of an OCLP/macOS-system I changed my routine of data-storage ad migrated all my personal files/folders to a separate volume "My Data" with only (cloud-)synched files stored on the System-Volume(s). So I can have Mojave/Monterey/Ventura-System-Volumes side by side on a multiboot machine with each system-volume having a reasonably small size. Admittedly file-movement between different volumes/partitions is always a bit awkward.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Minghold

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
453
269
That's kind of my way, too. Mojave (especially for 32bit-apps and speed) is still my mostly used macOS.
Yep. It's my maximum install on any Mac between 2012-2019, and whatever earlier corner-cases (mainly Macboooks) will run the DosDude patch with hardware-acceleration and WiFi still working and have 8gb DDR3 ram or 4 with an SSD. Speaking of which, has the issue preventing hardware-acceleration from working in Mojave on stock/unmodified 2009-2011 "silverback" iMacs ever been resolved?

There is so much useful 32bit software out there, and most people simply don't know of it at all. I work with recyclers, and every other old Mac that comes in (and get "saved" by me) has some new widget I haven't seen before.
On unsupported Macs with DD1-patched Mojave I even stay with GUID/HFS+.
On the newer ones for the sake of OCLP I chose to migrate to APFS.
For me, the writing is on the wall: it's going to be one step forward, two steps back with each new hurry-up-schedule OS release. Too much functionality is lost, and monetization and telemetry snooping ramp up geometrically. The soul of Mac (the 32bit shareware ecosystem) is now dead, and what remains is a shambling simulacrum papering over an absense of utility with speed-going-nowhere, like an engine on the dyno.
With macOS11 and beyond one has to pretty start thinking different in behalf of backup-procedures, restores etc, especially when dealing with OCLP and unsupported-macOS, where in an instant both OCLP- and macOS- updates might render the whole system unbootable.
This is why I place zero faith in any system still taking updates. Perfect is the enemy of the good.
I wouldn't blame CCC for the whole misery. It's still a life-saver to make fast backups of the (system-)volumes (and a lot of more tasks) despite the fragile option of a bootable-clone-backup like with HFS+.
(I always have an encrypted USB3-connected external SSD for plug&save my personal documents with CCC).
Restoring the System after fatal crashes mean currently, that I do reinstall macOS on new volume and migrate the old system-volume via MigrationAssistent. This has so far in all critical instances worked for me.

Because of the delicate stability of an OCLP/macOS-system I changed my routine of data-storage ad migrated all my personal files/folders to a separate volume "My Data" with only (cloud-)synched files stored on the System-Volume(s). So I can have Mojave/Monterey/Ventura-System-Volumes side by side on a multiboot machine with each system-volume having a reasonably small size. Admittedly file-movement between different volumes/partitions is always a bit awkward.
That volume space-sharing is a lovely feature, but nowhere near worth the price of having zero worthy drive-recovery utilities whatsoever. Why, a cynical person might be led to the conclusion that Apple was deliberately herding users toward a TimeMachine-on-the-cloud "solution" where the NSA could pick through everything at its leisure.
 
Last edited:
I work with recyclers, and every other old Mac that comes in (and get "saved" by me) has some new widget I haven't seen before.

Although I live in a major metropolitan region, I lament how there aren’t really computer/electronics recyclers which are open to the public here, vis-à-vis a fabric odds-and-ends shop or a vehicle scrapyard. There are probably hundreds of any given, now-obsolete model of Mac to end up with one of the recycling depots here, with probably only a portion of those being inspected and parted by re-use centres and social enterprises.

To be able to have access to, say, a holding period for to-be-recycled gear, already pre-sorted, before they go to the shredder/separator, would be a fantastic way to extract value (and revenue) from the portions of the gear — i.e., the specific components (with part numbers) — from the rest whose value is, solely, in raw materials reclamation (like aluminium, silicon, glass, and trace rare metals).


For me, the writing is on the wall: it's going to be one step forward, two steps back with each new hurry-up-schedule OS release. Too much functionality is lost, and monetization and telemetry snooping ramp up geometrically. The soul of Mac (the 32bit shareware ecosystem) is now dead, and what remains is a shambling simulacrum papering over an absense of utility with speed-going-nowhere, like an engine on the dyno.

With each year passing, I’m finding the maturation and variety of Linux releases to be ever-more promising. I’m loath to admit this, but all the development energy poured into Android’s user experience (it is, after all, running on a Linux kernel) propagated some benefit to the many Linux endeavours doing well nowadays.

Even if there will never be “a year of the Linux desktop” (a quote now old enough to drive, drink, vote, rent a car, qualify for pension, have children, etc.), there is a steady, gentle, and incremental adoption of embracing and using Linux builds, at least part of the time, on more systems — especially those for which the owner still enjoys to use but can no longer rationalize a steadfastness of currency with one of “the big two”.


This is why I place zero faith in any system still taking updates. Perfect is the enemy of the good.

The “rolling release” is a mistake to all save the party creating nothing in the production of those releases: the shareholder.


That volume space-sharing is a lovely feature, but nowhere near worth the price of having so worthy drive-recovery utilities whatsoever. Why, a cynical person might be led to the conclusion that Apple was deliberately herding users toward a TimeMachine-on-the-cloud "solution" where the NSA could pick through everything at its leisure.

Stannum petasum-level.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Minghold
My take is that this year is/will be different for everyone. But waiting for it to knock on your door will have you wait forever. For me, that year is a distant memory: it was 1999.

“It was a score and five years ago when that Linux came a‘knockin’ on the cabin door… I remember it was during a howler of a blizzard and we all were gettin’ the scurvy…”
 
Linux really is taking its jolly, sweet-ass time, innit? ...I've never seen so much wheel-spinning without appreciable forward progress.

No.

Linux is moving at the pace of people working together, many voluntarily, to create and maintain a sustainable product. It’s a realistic, organic, measured pace.

It may feel dog-arse slow because, between being weaned on a now-dead Moore’s Law and on major tech companies pushing rolling major OS releases — more often than not with security holes needing urgent patching — with all the urgency to please shareholders (by, mostly, also designing and building products, pre-engineered to be disposable, to use those OSes), it moves slower than quarterly statements, annual reports, or the pomp of regular product kick-offs at major tech trade shows.

When one pans back, the progress of Linux, as an overarching OS with innumerable flavours sharing the same kernel, is slow and steady 🐢. It’s not frenetic 🐇.

I think there may be some kind of old parable adjacent to this notion, but for the life of me, I just can’t recall what it was about. Someone who is good with literary references, please help me, my family is dying.
 

Minghold

macrumors 6502
Oct 21, 2022
453
269
The fragility of the 2011 i5 iMac model
The '11 i5s were largely trouble-free; the '11s that died were the top-end model 17" i7 MBPs and 27" i7 iMacs. The split-second Apple debuted MRT and Spotlight-indexing, they commenced cooking themselves to death.
is a statement on Apple's design choices rather than successive macOS releases because that means replacing a failed spinner just so that you can continue with High Sierra is equally problematic.
Compared to today's difficulties, running the OS off an external was pretty easy to do.

No. Linux is moving at the pace of people working together, many voluntarily, to create and maintain a sustainable product. It’s a realistic, organic, measured pace.
"No" right back atchya. They have not moved an inch forward when it comes to facilitating mass-adaptation.
ddrescue can clone nearly everything - very easily and effectively. :)
ddr is an excellent tool for very, very smart people like you and me, but the vast mass of humanity that various distros would ideally like to attract has no business being anywhere near a command-line utility capable of boot-drive obliteration.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.