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Killyp

macrumors 68040
Jun 14, 2006
3,859
7
75MB/s max roughly on FW800 - this allows for ~1.33MB/s per channel, including over head. yeh now that i think about it that allows enough for uncompressed audio to run through. uncompressed aiff channels only require ~150KB/s to run reliably. what sort of disk activity do you see when playing back that many channels?

I'm not really an expert when it comes to hard drives, but I kinda know when I'm pushing the drive. I have an older 750gb FW400 based Maxtor which keeps falling over as soon as I get past ~25ish channels of audio (even when playing back with a FW bus to itself). My Lacie d2 Quadra (1TB) handles it no problem though, with a fair bit of headroom left. I've had ~40 channels of audio playing off the same drive before without any issues.

Still, I'm looking to invest in a pair of Glyph drives when funds will allow and tracking across both drives with Reaper for live recordings (where if it goes wrong, you're boned!)


OH! HA! missed that part ;)

Easily done; I thought I'd posted something in my sleep without knowing until I realised that post was over a year ago!
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
I'm not really an expert when it comes to hard drives, but I kinda know when I'm pushing the drive. I have an older 750gb FW400 based Maxtor which keeps falling over as soon as I get past ~25ish channels of audio (even when playing back with a FW bus to itself). My Lacie d2 Quadra (1TB) handles it no problem though, with a fair bit of headroom left. I've had ~40 channels of audio playing off the same drive before without any issues.
FW400 starts to struggle around 30MB/s-40MB/s, so 25 tracks is 33.25MB/s, which is right near the limit and explains why it is going to struggle.

according to my rough calculations at fw800, you can have about 57 channels of audio before it keels over.

Still, I'm looking to invest in a pair of Glyph drives when funds will allow and tracking across both drives with Reaper for live recordings (where if it goes wrong, you're boned!)
those enclosures are nice, cant see the prices so i cant judge that. the limitation here is the FW800 of course, which has the 57 channel limitation. if you want anything faster, you could go with eSata or a direct hard drive.

with a new 2TB HDD, you would expect +110MB/s for a higher end HDD, where as FW800 is limited to ~75MB/s. quite a significant limitation there.

Easily done; I thought I'd posted something in my sleep without knowing until I realised that post was over a year ago!
it's like that! i wake up and re-read a post and say "what was i thinking?" :rolleyes:
 

Killyp

macrumors 68040
Jun 14, 2006
3,859
7
according to my rough calculations at fw800, you can have about 57 channels of audio before it keels over.

Is that just simply streaming from the interface, or including writing data onto the hard drive?

those enclosures are nice, cant see the prices so i cant judge that. the limitation here is the FW800 of course, which has the 57 channel limitation. if you want anything faster, you could go with eSata or a direct hard drive.

The 250gb Glyph GT-050Q is about £200. Very poor in terms of GB/£, but I don't exactly need bags of storage space. I've thought about going eSATA for the drives, but that would restrict my upgrade path to a 17" MBP (I currently have a 2.2 GHz MacBook Pro 3,1, which is plenty fast enough for my needs, but my other computer is a 2.66 20" Alu iMac. I really wish Apple would include PC Card slots on both the top end MBPs, and the iMacs. It's not like they don't have enough space for it or something. :(

My only worry with HDDs is that they don't always sustain the data rate they often claim to. My FW bus has NEVER dropped out on my iMac or MacBook Pro (as I've not had a single pop, crackle or stutter with my interface), but I've had numerous hard drives suddenly fall over after a couple of hours of recording, even if they seemed fine when I started the recording - hence my wanting two hard drives...
 

DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
Is that just simply streaming from the interface, or including writing data onto the hard drive?
well, both! as the throughput of writing data to the disks, and reading data from the disks is limited by the bandwidth limitations of FW800 itself.

The 250gb Glyph GT-050Q is about £200. Very poor in terms of GB/£, but I don't exactly need bags of storage space. I've thought about going eSATA for the drives, but that would restrict my upgrade path to a 17" MBP (I currently have a 2.2 GHz MacBook Pro 3,1, which is plenty fast enough for my needs, but my other computer is a 2.66 20" Alu iMac. I really wish Apple would include PC Card slots on both the top end MBPs, and the iMacs. It's not like they don't have enough space for it or something. :(
PHOAR! now that is expensive. i could find a much cheaper set to be honest, with much more storage. but if its going to work for you and you are willing to pay that price then it will be great! :)

PC Card Slots? are you referring to PCI slots? or ExpressCard slots? the top end MBPs have ExpressCard slots which allow for eSata/3G modem/FW/etc add ons :) it would be nice for the desktops.

My only worry with HDDs is that they don't always sustain the data rate they often claim to. My FW bus has NEVER dropped out on my iMac or MacBook Pro (as I've not had a single pop, crackle or stutter with my interface), but I've had numerous hard drives suddenly fall over after a couple of hours of recording, even if they seemed fine when I started the recording - hence my wanting two hard drives...
your 750GB HDD would most likely be getting around a max of 90MB/s read rates, write rates would be a tad lower. factor fragmentation and prolonged use into that and it could very well explain the sudden problems.

newer hard drives (with higher read/write rates all round) are much less likely to have this problem.
 

stefmesman

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
432
1
Netherlands
Stef Mesman's Setup - 17-08-10

The project:
When i first started building this setup the things that i wanted where
no clutter, functionality, design and most of all, a space saving and open look since i have a small room. I posted this here to help you do what i did. and inspire you to get an awesome setup and/or give you ideas of your own to improve yours.

thread about my setup:https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=10865034&posted=1#post10865034

I started with re-doing my room with a neutral color, dark grey, which i accentuated with my glossy white furniture (home made). started in February 2010. and this is the outcome.

thebigpicture.jpg
setupsidenight.jpg

(a clock i ordered will come on the chimney)
(click to enlarge)


The Desk:
This was probably the most time consuming build i did. Got myself some MDF board. and started sawing. base coating and painting. it can hold my own weight. The audio controller is build into the desk, i needed some precision power tools to get a hole in it that would fit this device perfectly, and besides that. all the cables of the audio controller run through the wood of the desk. (as you see them coming out of the side of the desk) it runs on FW400 but since the late 2009 imac only has FW800 i put in a 400 to 800 cable to make it work.

cables from left to right:
Microphone XLR
L/R Line In (extended to side of desk)
Balanced Audio out L/R to monitors
Head phones out (extended to side of desk)
Firewire cable to iMac (400 to 800)
Power cable (not necessarily needed. since it also powers on FW)

theholeandcablesaudiocontroller.jpg
audiocontrolleroutoftheshell.jpg
audiocontrollernight.jpg

(click to enlarge)


On the front of the desk theres a retractable shelf which has my keyboard on it. (it does not provide much space for your legs but u can still sit comfortable)

detractkeyboard.jpg

(click to enlarge)

behind this board is a compartment which has all the cables of the entire setup. Also a ethernet cable runs down to the bottom of the desk. (100Mb/ps connection)
back compartment of desk: a 10 port USB hub, slave power switch (everything turns on at the switch of my mac) and a lot of cables.

cablechaos.jpg

(click to enlarge)

side of desk: for this i bought a 7 port usb hub wich had the card reader included. looked just like a black box witch ports and nothing else. again used precision tools to get a hole in the side and glue it in. (running the cable through the wood of the desk to the back compartment)
3 power sockets where installed on the side. with a hole behind them to lead a cable with a plug to the back compartment. the L/R audio in port come from the audio controller. i just used an extension cable, drilled a hole in te side. and glued it into it. the same thing counts for the headphones output.

USBportsideofdeskclose.jpg
sidedesk.jpg

(click to enlarge)


The Green board:
the green board behind the iMac is there for 2 reasons.
1: i have plastered walls. no way to mount anything on that
2: to hide cables to the speakers and imac
the big green board was attached to the wooden poles in between the plaster. this allowed me to mount my equipment anywhere on the green board with no limitation. it also gives a nice touch to the whole.

setupdaylight.jpg

(click to enlarge)


Mounting the beast:
why mounting? it gives an more open look and creates space. The mount i used is one by ''Vogels'' called the EFW6225. probably one of the only mounts that supports up to 35kg that has a VESA attachment. since the imac is only 15kg it is more then enough to support it. attaching apples VESA adapter is a hassle. but u do need one if u want to mount an iMac. After that i put some IKEA dioders on the back (the pure white ones). these give it a ''modern'' look instead of the colored ones.

backlightandmountimac.jpg
setupnight.jpg

(click to enlarge)


Sound mounting:
For my monitor speakers i used a lighter speaker mount by ''Vogels'', the VLB200. These mounts can hold up to 15kg per mount. Getting them on there was quite easy. be sure to level them out exactly. The speakers are connected with balanced TRS plugs. and they run behind the green board.

speakermount.jpg

(click to enlarge)


equipment:

27'' iMac i7, 8gb (late 2009 model)
KRK Rokit powered limited edition Classic (silver woofer)
Western digital Desktop elements 2TB
T.C. Electronic Desktop konnekt 6
apple wired keyboard with numpad - will be replaced by wireless keyboard
apple magic mouse
E-MU x-board 61
HP C4780 printer

shots where taken with the Sony alpha 300 and Sony Cybershot DSC H55
 

Killyp

macrumors 68040
Jun 14, 2006
3,859
7
well, both! as the throughput of writing data to the disks, and reading data from the disks is limited by the bandwidth limitations of FW800 itself.

Aha, so theoretically offloading one of the drives to USB and splitting all the channels 50/50 across two drives would mean I'm not loading any of the busses to anywhere near their maximum potential. Plus on top of that, the interface is 28 channels IN and 28 channels OUT. For most live recordings, I hit the 28 channel limit and just synch up with another medium...


PHOAR! now that is expensive. i could find a much cheaper set to be honest, with much more storage. but if its going to work for you and you are willing to pay that price then it will be great! :)

Professional kit costs professional money I suppose - I'd more rather have two rack mountable drives which I know I can rely on and don't have to worry about and much less money in my pocket than two rack mounted drives with more storage which *could* give me issues down the line...

PC Card Slots? are you referring to PCI slots? or ExpressCard slots? the top end MBPs have ExpressCard slots which allow for eSata/3G modem/FW/etc add ons :) it would be nice for the desktops.

That's the one - ExpressCard slots. It would be extremely beneficial to have them on iMacs, or at least, eSATA connections which don't involve voiding the warranty...
 

DewGuy1999

macrumors 68040
Jan 25, 2009
3,194
6
Stef Mesman's Setup - 17-08-10

The project:
When i first started building this setup the things that i wanted where
no clutter, functionality, design and most of all, a space saving and open look since i have a small room. I posted this here to help you do what i did. and inspire you to get an awesome setup and/or give you ideas of your own to improve yours.

I started with re-doing my room with a neutral color, dark grey, which i accentuated with my glossy white furniture (home made). started in February 2010. and this is the outcome.

thebigpicture.jpg
setupsidenight.jpg

<snip>

Very nice and clever setup. Unlike many custom built pieces it seems to be flexible enough to allow for changes in the future. What is the finish on the desktop, oil-based paint? Have you considered a career in either interior design or maybe architecture, I think you have an eye and the mind for it. Bravo.
 

stefmesman

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
432
1
Netherlands
Very nice and clever setup. Unlike many custom built pieces it seems to be flexible enough to allow for changes in the future. What is the finish on the desktop, oil-based paint? Have you considered a career in either interior design or maybe architecture, I think you have an eye and the mind for it. Bravo.

no, i haven't actually. yes thats oil based white paint, and on top of that a layer of transparent what they call here ''boat paint'' that makes it even more shiny and hardens the top so it doesn't scratch. ;) currently i study video editing. but i have always considered design. and i love drawing concepts hehe.

thank you!
 

costabunny

macrumors 68020
May 15, 2008
2,466
71
Weymouth, UK
Re-arranging the study today (was up all night taking out the old desk and setting up the new one).

Still need to cut the left-hand extension (needs about 20cm shaving off to fit wall-to-wall). Desk was a donation so I scored good (better than anything I had seen within my budget).

Walls still the same though am thinking about a deep redish colour....

anyways here is how she looks for now...
 

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DoFoT9

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jun 11, 2007
17,586
100
London, United Kingdom
Aha, so theoretically offloading one of the drives to USB and splitting all the channels 50/50 across two drives would mean I'm not loading any of the busses to anywhere near their maximum potential. Plus on top of that, the interface is 28 channels IN and 28 channels OUT. For most live recordings, I hit the 28 channel limit and just synch up with another medium...
that would seem a very plausible idea! USB2.0 will chew a few CPU cycles, and might have a tiny bit more lag but it should not be anything noticeable. expect a max throughput of ~35MB/s for USB2.0 which would be about 25 channels if you are lucky.

Professional kit costs professional money I suppose - I'd more rather have two rack mountable drives which I know I can rely on and don't have to worry about and much less money in my pocket than two rack mounted drives with more storage which *could* give me issues down the line...
there are SO many options open.
Dual Bay Enclosure 2xeSata ports only, £31
Dual Bay Enclosure USB2.0 + fw400 + fw800 + eSata, 640GB HDD (2x320GB), £118.
Quad Bay Enclosure which has the same RAID chip as the bays you were looking into.
Racks Racks!

note: professional does not necessarily mean expensive - and to be honest, the custom build kits often perform much better to the individual user. i am not trying to persuade you in any way here of course :D options!

That's the one - ExpressCard slots. It would be extremely beneficial to have them on iMacs, or at least, eSATA connections which don't involve voiding the warranty...
eSATA in iMac = WIN! :D the eSATA add on in the new iMacs will not necessarily void the warranty - it really depends on the Apple rep and their "opinions", the line is very blurry :( the general consensus is as long as there is no internal damage, stickers are intact etc - you can generally assume that the warranty is still fine.
 

DewGuy1999

macrumors 68040
Jan 25, 2009
3,194
6
Re-arranging the study today (was up all night taking out the old desk and setting up the new one).

Still need to cut the left-hand extension (needs about 20cm shaving off to fit wall-to-wall). Desk was a donation so I scored good (better than anything I had seen within my budget).

Walls still the same though am thinking about a deep redish colour....

anyways here is how she looks for now...

I wish I had a desk that big, but if I did I don't have space for anything that big. :( Red might conflict with that color of wood, but I betcha something like a sage green would look good. Nice looking setup nice. :)
 

costabunny

macrumors 68020
May 15, 2008
2,466
71
Weymouth, UK
I wish I had a desk that big, but if I did I don't have space for anything that big. :( Red might conflict with that color of wood, but I betcha something like a sage green would look good. Nice looking setup nice. :)

I was thinking of painting the desk (Black?) and then using desk varnish over the top.

Might go crazy and make the desk purple or something (need to spend a lot of time with sketchup to do a mock up but I need to spend lots of time getting the hang of it)...
 

akkkmed

macrumors 6502
Apr 3, 2010
332
0
@stefmesman
Like every one else here, I LOVE your setup. It is simply amazing and I'm blown away at your desk and craftsmanship.

You said you painted your room a dark gray color. I'm actually in the process of painting my room light gray with 15" dark gray stripes. It's cool to see someone else with a gray room.

Once again, great work!
 

DewGuy1999

macrumors 68040
Jan 25, 2009
3,194
6
I was thinking of painting the desk (Black?) and then using desk varnish over the top.

Might go crazy and make the desk purple or something (need to spend a lot of time with sketchup to do a mock up but I need to spend lots of time getting the hang of it)...

Whatever you choose for your walls and/or your desk I'm sure you'll enjoy. With that said, I think the current wood finish looks more high end. Just sayin...
 

stefmesman

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
432
1
Netherlands
@stefmesman
Like every one else here, I LOVE your setup. It is simply amazing and I'm blown away at your desk and craftsmanship.

You said you painted your room a dark gray color. I'm actually in the process of painting my room light gray with 15" dark gray stripes. It's cool to see someone else with a gray room.

Once again, great work!

i can recommend a grey room, mine used to be blue, and i love the grey right now. be shure to buy WHITE lights because your grey will look brown with normal light bulbs :) started a thread about my setup here:

https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=10865034&posted=1#post10865034
 

akkkmed

macrumors 6502
Apr 3, 2010
332
0

milbournosphere

macrumors 6502a
Mar 3, 2009
857
1
San Diego, CA
...back compartment of desk: a 10 port USB hub, slave power switch (everything turns on at the switch of my mac)...

First off, awesome setup. Would you mind going into the details of the slave switch you used? Pics, if possible? I am looking into doing the same thing for my peripherals, and I liked the way you set things up.
 

stefmesman

macrumors 6502
Jun 25, 2010
432
1
Netherlands
First off, awesome setup. Would you mind going into the details of the slave switch you used? Pics, if possible? I am looking into doing the same thing for my peripherals, and I liked the way you set things up.

Specificaties:
- 6 AC Outles power surge protector
- 1 Master outlet & 5 slave outlets
- Children safety shutters
- Telephone line protection
- Coax/DSS protection
- Heavy duty power cord: 1.8m H05VV-F 3G, 1.0mm²
- 10 Amp. resettable circuit breaker
- 1-Pole rocker switch
- Led indicators for: internal surge, master socket supplied and slave socket supplied
- Clamping voltage: 775 Volt
- Max. spike voltage: 6 KV
- Response time: < 1 nanosecond

22274.jpg


here they call it a master slave. dunno if u can buy it where you live. it has one master socket. if that socket goes to a lower voltage (standby or off) it switches off the 5 other sockets on the device, (voltage level can be adjusted) it also has powersurge protection. and with the red switch you can disable the master option and it will continuously power the sockets.

for further questions please ask here: https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=10865441&posted=1#post10865441

good to hear some people actually do read the text i put in there ahaha :D
 

lifeinhd

macrumors 65816
Mar 26, 2008
1,428
58
127.0.0.1
here they call it a master slave. dunno if u can buy it where you live. it has one master socket. if that socket goes to a lower voltage (standby or off) it switches off the 5 other sockets on the device, (voltage level can be adjusted) it also has powersurge protection. and with the red switch you can disable the master option and it will continuously power the sockets.

for further questions please ask here: https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=10865441&posted=1#post10865441

good to hear some people actually do read the text i put in there ahaha :D

That's pretty awesome actually. I've never seen anything like that in the States-- anyone know if they make them in US versions?
 
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