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The only way they would be able to ship for about $2k is if they included a tiny SSD drive..... The size of the base drive will really be what determines the price of the unit. The price of the CPU and GPU are pretty much known, and while the case is more complex than the current offering, it is also a lot smaller which means a lot less material, so the cost there will probably be at worst a wash.

Intel hasn't released prices yet, but http://www.techpowerup.com/185643/i...ge-e-and-core-i3-haswell-series-detailed.html sort of gives a good rough estimate. Assuming Apple doesn't use the low-end quad core CPUs at all, the entry CPU will probably cost Apple about $500 per unit. The dual graphics cards will also probably cost Apple about $500, let's assume $200 for the memory and $100 for the case and related parts...Already we are ballparked at around $1300, now let's look at the drive.

Let's assume Apple can squeeze it's suppliers and get a high density drive for 45 cents a gig, in that scenario shipping with a 1 TB drive standard would drive just the cost to Apple, not including their markup, to near $2k. They *might* be able to get away with using a smaller drive and squeeking something out at less than $2k(a 500 gig would probably give them a cost of around $1600 or so, so $2k would be in line with Apple's average profit margin), but I'm not sure they would be willing to ship such a small drive in a "pro" machine.

Sure, why not ship with a 64G or 128G drive? The drive doesn't have to be anything more than a boot drive as it's easy to add a traditional SSD ThunderBolt.

Also I wouldn't be too surprised if they got their CPU's and GPU's for a bit less than that, Apple has pricing powers you can't imagine.
 
The MacPro has software RAID built into the OS. I do not see anything in the WD literature that says that they are using/not using SW RAID. If there is, then point it out.

GL

My bad. I was thinking of another device and then ended up linking to that one because it was cheaper. Oops. :eek:
 
If what you have is fine, you don't have to upgrade to a new Mac Pro immediately. Sure, nobody wants to spend $900 on a glorified adapter, but it is there, and it may come down in price in the future.

Yeah, some people seem to be acting as if, on Mac Pro Day, the Apple Police will come round and load up all your old pros and force you to start from scratch with a thunderbolt-based infrastructure.

There's a slight hitch in that when the old Pro goes away (which it already has done in the EU) what happens if you need a new Mac Pro - that's a real problem for some, but the fact that it wasn't worth Apple's while to invest in a new fan guard for the EU market suggests that it is not a problem for many.

The current range of "pro" Thunderbolt peripherals are primarily aimed at people who want/need to connect a Fibrechannel adapter, pro audio digitiser or superfast SSD RAID array to their laptop or all-in-one. That's kinda niche - and something that simply wasn't possible before, so you can charge what you like. If it becomes the standard solution for using such things under OS X then the volumes and competition will go up and the prices come down.
 
Why would a non-revenue generating user be targeting to buy a box explicitly targeted at folks in revenue generating activities? The device is named Mac Pro. Not Mac Fun. or Mac Hobby. or Mac Erector Set.

I didn't want to buy a laptop in a desktop form factor (e.g. imac) for a whole bunch of different reasons that have been articulated well in other threads. I'd be happy with an i7 type of desktop, but unfortunately Apple chooses not to compete in this market (again for a whole bunch of reasons articulated in other threads in this forum):

1. With the imac you get an underpowered laptop grade CPU and graphics card

2. Graphics card is not upgradeable whereas with the mac pro you can swap it out after a few years

3. iMac/macbook pros have a poorer track record for component failure after four years old due to heat issues than the mac pro.

4. with imac you have to purchase the monitor which locks you in to a particular form factor size. In my experience my monitors have always lasted for at least 2 computer generations so when I retire my current mac pro I can continue using my 30" ACD

5. The only external drives I want on my desktop are my local external backups. I have 4 drives in my mac pro. Rather than 2 external drives I would have 5 external drives going with an imac (yuck)

6. My mac pro is 5 years old and with the addition of an SSD I think I can get another 5 years out of this sucker with a graphics card upgrade. I can guarantee this would not have been the case if I purchased an imac 5 years ago.
 
1. Mac Pro Mini - $3000
2. External enclosure for drives - $1000
3. External enclosure for cards - $1000

Now price up an existing Mac Pro with 4-core single CPU, dual FirePro GPUs and an SSD and see if you get much change from $5000. Don't forget the hardware RAID card (the $1099 4-way Promise Pegasus has hardware RAID).

4. Bunch of drives - $1000

...already included in many of the ~$1000 enclosures. Not included in the price of a "classic" pro.
 
There's a slight hitch in that when the old Pro goes away (which it already has done in the EU) what happens if you need a new Mac Pro - that's a real problem for some, but the fact that it wasn't worth Apple's while to invest in a new fan guard for the EU market suggests that it is not a problem for many.

The signs are that the current Mac Pro is selling very poorly. That almost certainly means the Mac Pro was going to disappear if it wasn't changed significantly to appeal to a wider market.

And the only visible way for the new Mac Pro to widen it's market is on price. So I expect it to have a cheaper entry model. That probably means lower end Xeon and FirePro models and smaller SSD.
 
Of course it isn't. It was compared to this: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Buffalo/HDPA1.0TU3/ in terms of price by me in post #13.

Yes it is flawed. I saw the post 13. They whole exercise is deeply flawed.

A forward facing sneaker net HDD drive could simply just be USB 3.0 and beat both of those on costs effectiveness. Both of those drives have USB 3.0 because it is actually the more ubiquitous interface. The ubiquitous property is what has high value in sneaker net contexts. The second interface is there because over last couple of years Apple has knee-capped their product offerings with just USB 2.0 (until last year) and/or to tap into legacy Mac products; not the new Mac Pro. In a year or two there probaby won't be FW port on any Mac device.

Thunderbolt being in the mix there is primary motivated by Apple's foot dragging on USB.

It is absolutely a muddled mess if trying to illustrate the value add Thunderbolt can have. That is exactly why MacVidCards drove you out into the swamp with the bare drive and clowned you. If you were trying to throw him a slow pitch softball to take a whack at congratulations. But if out to illustrate where and how Thunderbolt brings substantive value, it is deeply flawed.

The TB value prop problem with the buffalo drive is that it is a chain ender. That is primarily why the price starts to approach that of another dual interface (focused at legacy Mac ports) end of the spectrum. Bandwidth overkill TB->FW and TB->1GbE dongles same thing... much cheaper largely because chain enders and gross bandwidth mismatch.


Apple using zero of the 10 SATA lanes inside of the upcoming Mac Pro creates a huge product gap in the Thunderbolt ecosystem. It is a huge 'left turn' to actually dump all of the SATA lanes. Everything out there so far has presumed that no vendor would do that since have to pay for at least 6 (or more) SATA lanes with every Intel chipset. Maybe if Intel adjusts their chipsets later dumping all the SATA lanes will save costs ( or shift cost from some discrete part into the chipset. ). But for right now it is a mismatch.
 
I also love the new Mac Pro because it will force people to adopt Thunderbolt, and hopefully drive costs down of TB devices.

I would throw out a random percentage that 90% of anything someone needs is already available, just with a slight price premium.

[$900 - ATTO External TB -> SAS]

I get what you're saying, but you can still have your mini SAS & Thunderbolt.


Yeah let's just do a random little comparison between TB vs PCIe Mini-SAS options.

$900 - TB -> SAS controller, 2 port

$280 - PCIe 8x 2.0 -> SAS controller, 2 port with twice the bandwidth of TB2

$480 - PCIe 16x 2.0 -> SAS controller, 4 port with 4x the bandwidth of TB2

This is not a "slight" premium. This is literally 3-4 times as much for a vastly inferior product. Have fun with that.

Exactly my point. Look at that price, just to use what I already have.

You must all have more money than god.
 
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What concerns me is the amount of stuff that fights with displays for bandwidth. Thunderbolt 2.0 just adds channel bonding to support displayport 1.2.

It doesn't have to. DisplayPort 1.2 makes that even more so. Simply plug a DisplayPort (DP) display into the host computer's Thunderbolt port using a more affordable DP cable and it takes no TB network backbone bandwidth.

You consumed a port which would be a problem on a one ( or maybe two ) port host computer, but the Mac Pro 2013 has six. You could put 3 into backward compatibility mode ( driving 3 4K displays over DP v1.2) and will have consumed zero TB backbone network throughput.

It primarily boils down to seeing Thunderbolt for what it is. Not the one port does everything hype. The backward compatibility pass-thru mode has utility if have too much data bandwidth for the TB backbone to handle. There is trade-off small laptops, but for a workstation that had multiple monitors with multiple cables before ... it is about the same. The typical 1-3 DisplayPort ports used from the GPU card edge just migrated to the back of the Mac Pro. Ta-da done.
 
Nothing comes free with design. There are always trade-offs. Piggybacking on already internal infrastructure is probably cheaper if there is additional space/power/cost/etc budget available, but it is not free.

The other sweeping assumption is whether this was needlessly moved or not.

It isn't free to have internal drives but the "marginal cost" is ridiculously cheap. With external options You have to have an additional power supply, additional case, and with TB, an additional controller. It is clearly more efficient to have a reasonable on-motherboard and in-case capacity for SATA expansion + PCIe (and maybe TB too) for whatever wont fit in the case.

External TB Will NEVER replace internal hard drive bays in the larger market because it will ALWAYS be more expensive as well as less space-efficient, simply due to the need for additional power and peripheral cases. This should be pretty obvious.

And yes, I will say that Apple "needlessly moved" high throughput expansion and storage outside of the case, unless you're saying that it was "needed" to have the form-factor be this ridiculous bucket, with an army of ugly boxes on your desk holding everything from your platter drives to your sound card.

 
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but unfortunately Apple chooses not to compete in this market (again for a whole bunch of reasons articulated in other threads in this forum):

Apparently you been wandering the forums collecting FUD.
If Apple doesn't build the product you are looking for .... go to another source. You know that they don't build what you want. So composing Mac Price guesstimate prices is a pointless exercise since you do not want the Mac Pro in the first place. Of course the prices are whacked, but you are not particularly interested in buying it regardless.


1. With the imac you get an underpowered laptop grade CPU and graphics card

The iMac doesn't have laptop grade CPUs.

The top end iMac BTO "mobile" GPUs are better than entry level economy desktop ones. If you don't want to spend the money to buy one that is up to you. However, it is basically FUD at this point that you can get desktop class CPU/GPU in an iMac form factor. Technology is changing and that is becoming less a factor on each iteration.

2. Graphics card is not upgradeable whereas with the mac pro you can swap it out after a few years

By 2014 that is probably a moot point.


3. iMac/macbook pros have a poorer track record for component failure after four years old due to heat issues than the mac pro.

Errr? Source for the data? Is the track record revelent for the 2013 iMac/Macbooks ?

Some PowerMac/Mac Pro format factor offerings from Apple have had drama issues too. The form factor isn't the primary problem. The implementation is.


4. with imac you have to purchase the monitor which locks you in to a particular form factor size. In my experience my monitors have always lasted for at least 2 computer generations so when I retire my current mac pro I can continue using my 30" ACD

Most current Macs can drive a 30" ACD. You are also locked into a fixed ppi for 2-3 computer generations.


5. The only external drives I want on my desktop are my local external backups. I have 4 drives in my mac pro. Rather than 2 external drives I would have 5 external drives going with an imac (yuck)
So three boxes is OK : Mac Pro, backups, and 30" display , but three boxes iMac , 4-6 drive JBOD box , and backups is evil. Whatever.


6. My mac pro is 5 years old and with the addition of an SSD I think I can get another 5 years out of this sucker with a graphics card upgrade. I can guarantee this would not have been the case if I purchased an imac 5 years ago.

Let's see, you explicitly don't want to buy anything from Apple, but are tweaked over Apple not offering you something to buy ( which you don't want to do).

Apple probably isn't twisted over that. In 5 years, the Mac Mini will probably have a desktop processor and pretty graphics. If your workload continues to plateau over the next 5-10 year eventually the lower end Mac offerings will catch up to something that you can possibly buy. That's primarily because most folks in your set of users are relatively not moving and the products are.

The Mac Pro is a product far more targeted at users whose workload demands are increasing about as fast as the technology is. Those folks don't squat on hardware to 10 years.
 
I also love the new Mac Pro because it will force people to adopt Thunderbolt, and hopefully drive costs down of TB devices.

That's a nice idea, but it won't happen. The sort of people who buy Mac Pros are also the sort of people who'd pay $100s on a Thunderbolt accessory. The accessory makers know that, and they aren't going to lower their prices just to appeal to that crowd. Remember, every other Apple computer has Thunderbolt.

If there is a motive for companies to make Thunderbolt accessories cheaper, it is to sell to the elusive market of first-year university students who just want an external drive for their 11-inch Macbook Airs because Parallels takes up too much space, and their tight-ass parents bought the entry-level configuration on the basis of 'who needs more than 128 gigabits these days?' People who download movies because their university proxy blocks streaming, that's who.

Once you tap that market, you're in the money.
 
It isn't free to have internal drives but the "marginal cost" is ridiculously cheap.

It is cheap primarily because it is included in the chipset. This C600 chipset used with the Xeon E5 v2 is non optimal for the Mac Pro 2013 design. However, this is probably the core basic design for the next 5-6 years.

A next generation Intel Chipset offering that swapped SATA functionality for:

Thunderbolt ( not as likely do to physical port placement distance constraints )
10GbE ( this is already a discrete Intel chip so quite possible )
USB 3.0++ Ultra-Super-Duper Speed ( or whatever USB calls their 10Gb/s upgrade https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1521001/ )

Is actually going to lower the cost of adding those two the Mac Pro. It would be a swap more so than the net push the current set up is.

With external options You have to have an additional power supply, additional case, and with TB, an additional controller. It is clearly more efficient to have a reasonable on-motherboard and in-case capacity for SATA expansion + PCIe (and maybe TB too) for whatever wont fit in the case.

Additional power supply cost is needed regardless. Internal or external drives consume the same amount of power. Again it is not "free" just because it is internal. Lower cost? Sure. Implicit notion that it is free? No.


Whether it is more efficient is Largely depends upon how the data is used. For one-man-shows a fixed amount of data going into a single box works. If multiple people and/or computers need to get at the data putting it all into a single box dedicated to a single user doesn't work so well. Even for one-man-show if the data growth rate is higher than HDD density improvements a single box isn't going to work long term.

Users with not enough money for SAN/NAS typically create "sneaker net" mechanisms for distributing data.

Apple isn't targeting the exact same set of people with the new Mac Pro.


External TB Will NEVER replace internal hard drive bays in the larger market because it will ALWAYS be more expensive as well as less space-efficient, simply due to the need for additional power and peripheral cases. This should be pretty obvious.

It should be pretty obvious that hard drives are being replaced in the larger market. ( presuming you mean larger as in broadly scoped, as opposed to the bigger and heavier case. ).

SSDs don't necessarily need SATA or legacy form factors ( 2.5" or 3.5" drive boxes )




And yes, I will say that Apple "needlessly moved" high throughput expansion and storage outside of the case, unless you're saying that it was "needed" to have the form-factor be this ridiculous bucket, with an army of ugly boxes on your desk holding everything from your platter drives to your sound card.

An army of external boxes isn't necessary. ( Army imply something larger than a very small squad that takes up no more volume than before. )

There is a spectrum of bulk storage solutions that users employ.

But yes this design is not maximized to provision legacy hardware.


There is no reason driven by new Mac Pro design why you diagram has to contain so many boxes.

Mac Pro ---> TB Display ---> Firwire Device.
|||--------> Bulk/legacy storage box with DVD and JBOD drive bays.

Actually is a net increase in available USB ports. ( all USB 3.0 if TB display updates). One additional power cord.

There is nothing about the new Mac Pro that prohibits relatively not well thought out configurations.

----------

That's a nice idea, but it won't happen. The sort of people who buy Mac Pros are also the sort of people who'd pay $100s on a Thunderbolt accessory. The accessory makers know that, and they aren't going to lower their prices just to appeal to that crowd. Remember, every other Apple computer has Thunderbolt.

The last part doesn't have much impact on the first. If most Thunderbolt buyers are not money-is-no-object Mac Pro owners why would the TB vendors price their goods to the much smaller group. Wouldn't they want to price the goods so that a somewhat larger target group would buy them?
They don't have to grab all TB capable owners just a larger set.


If there is a motive for companies to make Thunderbolt accessories cheaper, it is to sell to the elusive market of first-year university students who just want an external drive for their 11-inch Macbook Airs because Parallels takes up too much space,

If performance isn't a huge issue that is more inexpensively done with a USB 3.0 drive which the 11 MBA has too. Anyone is who is deeply strapped for money is going to choose the "fast enough" option.

People who download movies because their university proxy blocks streaming, that's who.

People looking to store a limited movie library are gong to slap them onto a inexpensive single HDD that they'll fit onto. Again USB 3.0 can stream that back just fine.


Once you tap that market, you're in the money.

If you can tap that market with Thunderbolt. Basically aiming at the USB heartland. Good luck, probably not going to get a whole lot of traction.
 
That's a nice idea, but it won't happen. The sort of people who buy Mac Pros are also the sort of people who'd pay $100s on a Thunderbolt accessory. The accessory makers know that, and they aren't going to lower their prices just to appeal to that crowd. Remember, every other Apple computer has Thunderbolt.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. If every Apple computer product will support TB, then costs will eventually come down as more products enter the market. To me, the issue is timing and the robustness of the current (and future) crop of devices. As far as I can tell, there is a dearth of TB JBOD enclosures, which is what I would need.

Count me in the group that would have greatly preferred the same old enclosure with updated internals.
 
Yes it is flawed.

No it isn't, you are missing the point! I'm not trying to argue that Thunderbolt add any value in this particular example.

I'm showing what an added Thunderbolt port does to the end price of a product. It does not necessarily have to add a lot. That's the entire point.

If you look at products that truly make use of the bandwidth, specifically storage devices, they are normally not "cheap" even without Thunderbolt.
 
The isheep responses on this forum always kill me. If Apple had decided to launch an i7 type desktop without ECC memory and/or an updated Mac Pro using the current cheese grater chassis, all of the folks singing the praises of the black trash can would be saying how much they loved the i7 desktop and updated Mac Pro.

I do think the trash can design will work for some folks where cost is not an option (e.g. who use an external hardware raid anyway, etc.), but there are a lot of folks like myself who view the iMac as too much of a toy and chose the MAc Pro over a windows desktop.

I realize that the iMac has gotten a bit beefier recently, but keep in mind I made a purchase decision back in 2008. For the record, the 2008 Mac Pro has exceeded my expectations and I am glad I purchased it for all of the reasons I articulated earlier.
 
No it isn't, you are missing the point! I'm not trying to argue that Thunderbolt add any value in this particular example.

I'm showing what an added Thunderbolt port does to the end price of a product. It does not necessarily have to add a lot. That's the entire point.

If you look at products that truly make use of the bandwidth, specifically storage devices, they are normally not "cheap" even without Thunderbolt.

well, buying things you don't need tends to be expensive!
 
If Apple had decided to launch an i7 type desktop without ECC memory and/or an updated Mac Pro using the current cheese grater chassis, all of the folks singing the praises of the black trash can would be saying how much they loved the i7 desktop and updated Mac Pro.

...meanwhile, loads of people would be complaining about how Apple doesn't innovate any more, how releasing a new PCIe-based Mac was an admission of the failure of Thunderbolt and how you could get a comparable i7 mini-tower from Dell for half the price.

but there are a lot of folks like myself who view the iMac as too much of a toy and chose the MAc Pro over a windows desktop.

...but obviously not enough to make it worth Apple's while to produce a new cheese grater. Or they would.

The Mac Pro doesn't have a Unique Selling Point over the PC any more: Windows isn't the train wreck it once was, user-friendliness isn't such a big deal for the Pro market, most of the major Pro graphics/video software is available for Windows (and plenty isn't available for Mac) and if you are using Adobe CS or Avid all day it doesn't make that much difference whether it is running on OSX or Windows. You can even get PC workstations in nice, quiet, tool-free cases (sometimes with obvious design cues from the Cheese Grater).

The 'trashcan' is an attempt to do something different that might open up new markets, rather than cling on to the diminishing "traditional" Mac Pro market. It worked for the iMac. It worked for the Air. It seems to be working for the retina MBPs.
 
You may need it, it depends on your requirements. USB 3 would likely work as well for a single or small amount or drives.

what is this situation where you would need a thunderbolt instead of USB3? and if that is the case how is thunderbolt arbitrarily more expensive when it is providing something that nothing else in the marketplace does? :confused:

it's as if you aren't getting the point
 
what is this situation where you would need a thunderbolt instead of USB3?

A situation when the attached device consumes more bandwidth than what USB 3 offers, such as a large enough RAID for example.

and if that is the case how is thunderbolt arbitrarily more expensive when it is providing something that nothing else in the marketplace does? :confused:

it's as if you aren't getting the point

I don't believe I have argued that it's arbitrarily more expensive?
 
...but obviously not enough to make it worth Apple's while to produce a new cheese grater. Or they would. The Mac Pro doesn't have a Unique Selling Point over the PC any more: Windows isn't the train wreck it once was...

Maybe, but I think there are multiple markets here. Both Audio/Video professionals and home power users purchase the mac pro. Apple can make mistakes or ignore certain markets (e.g. a counter factual of how much money they may have left on the table is obviously not possible to prove).

For myself I have a lot of iDevices and the Mac Pro doubles as my home server and work station. It my master repository of a not inconsiderable music collection, home videos, etc.

I, and I suspect quite a few others, would still be willing to pay the premium for such as a workstation since this is less painful than disrupting the ecosystem.
 
It doesn't have to. DisplayPort 1.2 makes that even more so. Simply plug a DisplayPort (DP) display into the host computer's Thunderbolt port using a more affordable DP cable and it takes no TB network backbone bandwidth.

I thought anything plugged into that gpu would consume TB bandwidth.

Maybe, but I think there are multiple markets here. Both Audio/Video professionals and home power users purchase the mac pro. Apple can make mistakes or ignore certain markets (e.g. a counter factual of how much money they may have left on the table is obviously not possible to prove).

Home users are probably buying used systems more often than new ones, unless you're talking about people that work from home.
 
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