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I thought anything plugged into that gpu would consume TB bandwidth.

In backward compatbility more you are not using Thunderbolt. The video is passing through parts of the controller but there is zero rational reason to convert that data to Thunderbolt data protocol format if transmitting it directly to a DisplayPort device ( which cannot understand Thunderbolt protocols).

Same issue now with the upcoming Redwood Ridge ( 4510/4410) controllers. They primarily only go into host systems and the new DisplayPort v1.2 portion only works when folks plug in a displayport monitor directly into the socket.

" ... Redwood Ridge maintains feature compatibility, but you get official support for DisplayPort 1.2 (and 4K resolution) if you're using a DisplayPort monitor. This extension of DP 1.2 support does not apply to Thunderbolt displays or DP 1.2 displays connected to a Thunderbolt chain however. ... "
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-to-know
 
No it isn't, you are missing the point! I'm not trying to argue that Thunderbolt add any value in this particular example.

I'm showing what an added Thunderbolt port does to the end price of a product. It does not necessarily have to add a lot. That's the entire point.

Still just as deeply flawed just in a different direction. What would look to present in that case is a USB 3.0 only alternative and then show that the delta between a one port ( USB 3.0 ) and a two port ( USB + TB ) drive is a relatively small amount. You'd also find a way to toss drive from the unit so get rid of different drive costs.


But you really can't. (leaving the drive costs in so there is some noise here. )


Elite Pro mini USB 3.0 + eSATA 1TB $129.99 ( $59.99 enclosure )
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/EliteALmini/eSATA_FW800_FW400_USB

delta +54% (from buffalos $199 price point).

[ not as good of a mac centric sneaker net drive for mainstream macs but a substantial number of Mac Pro folks have dropped in eSATA cards to tap into moving data on/off sneaker net drives. ]

Or worse

On-the-go-Pro USB 3.0 1TB 5400 RPM $114.99 ( $37.99 enclosure)
http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/firewire/on-the-go

delta +75% ( from $199 ).


or even worse

Buffalo USB 3.0 1TB 7200 RPM $109 ( although not so portable but at least same vendor )
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...ve station usb 3.0 axis 1tb&IsVirtualParent=1


The goofy thing is that the G-Tech drive ( at $139 ) can daisy chain on Firewire and the TB drive at $199 can't. So it is a colossal fail.


The thunderbolt interface brings additional overhead. If can leverage the additional features that overhead also brings then paying for the overhead is tolerable. But if get into a swamp race as to how to hook up a single HDD to a host computer USB 3.0 is going to beat the pants off the Thunderbolt solution. It is not a bandwidth problem for either one and USB 3.0 has lower implementation costs. Significantly lower. It has a massive deployment scale that Thunderbolt is never going to match.


If you look at products that truly make use of the bandwidth, specifically storage devices, they are normally not "cheap" even without Thunderbolt.

The eSATA device above is pretty cheap. Especially when standing next to the Thunderbolt device.

If you are talking external mini-SAS (SFF-8088) or port mutiplier JBOD boxes then sure.
 
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what is this situation where you would need a thunderbolt instead of USB3? and if that is the case how is thunderbolt arbitrarily more expensive when it is providing something that nothing else in the marketplace does? :confused:

it's as if you aren't getting the point

High performance data storage for project files, scratch disks, program libraries .
They usually are inside a workstation, and adding them is free .

Get it now ?

There are other fast external solutions, many of which are expensive too, but it can also be done on the cheap with eSATA enclosures .
 
Still just as deeply flawed just in a different direction... Blah blah blah

Congrats you managed to find cheaper single external drives (now there's a surprise). You can certainly find cheaper external drives, but you can also find more expensive examples. It's a probably better idea to use it to try to get a guesstimate dollar value that's added on top, because for a product where Thunderbolt matters that will not really make much difference (say a $50-70 overhead on a $10k array).

The point is, it certainly looks like there are potential for Thunderbolt peripherals at Firewire prices, which the post I originally quoted mentioned.

The thunderbolt interface brings additional overhead. If can leverage the additional features that overhead also brings then paying for the overhead is tolerable. But if get into a swamp race as to how to hook up a single HDD to a host computer USB 3.0 is going to beat the pants off the Thunderbolt solution. It is not a bandwidth problem for either one and USB 3.0 has lower implementation costs. Significantly lower. It has a massive deployment scale that Thunderbolt is never going to match.




The eSATA device above is pretty cheap. Especially when standing next to the Thunderbolt device.

If you are talking external mini-SAS (SFF-8088) or port mutiplier JBOD boxes then sure.

eSATA doesn't really bring much over USB 3, and I was certainly talking about larger arrays/RAID type products where Thunderbolt actually is needed.
 
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Congrats you managed to find cheaper single external drives (now there's a surprise). You can certainly find cheaper external drives, but you can also find more expensive examples.

I didn't cherry pick the prices. For most part just went back to same retailer vendor you picked the buffalo drive from and pulled from a different external portable drive list without really trying to go super cheap. OWC elite drives are pretty solid drives that aren't particularly on the low end of scale. The buffalo example from newegg was just only to normalize on vendor.

the cheapest or most expensive isn't the point. The range of USB 3.0 devices prices is far below thunderbolt ones.


It's a probably better idea to use it to try to get a guesstimate dollar value that's added on top, because for a product where Thunderbolt matters that will not really make much difference (say a $50-70 overhead on a $10k array).

Thunderbolt would be stupid on a $10K array. A $10 Array should have something that blows TB out of the water in throughput and/or concurrency. $400-1500 boxes sure. But too high, TB can't really play there either.


The point is, it certainly looks like there are potential for Thunderbolt peripherals at Firewire prices, which the post I originally quoted mentioned.

The old classic Firewire prices from years ago? Because just go the same page I pointed to for the USB 3.0 + eSATA solution. It isn't in the Firewire range either. The boutique retail Apple store device you picked out isn't particularly representative of Firewire.

eSATA doesn't really bring much over USB 3,

other than SMART info, control caching settings, control sleep, and ability to issue basic SATA commands like secure erase ... no not much.


and I was certainly talking about larger arrays/RAID type products where Thunderbolt actually is needed.

Thunderbolt is not needed in arrays/RAID products. Thunderbolt is needed where host systems don't have PCI-e slots and want to connect to arrays/RAID like products.

Applying Thunderbolt to the "box with slots" design always was solving a problem that design didn't have. It is a geeky port so the custom mainboards have it but there are few (if any? ) system vendors that have adopted it for desktop systems. ( even WinPC laptop adoption is relatively anemic so far where eSATA and ExpressCard alternatives were previously standard. ).
 
I didn't cherry pick the prices. For most part just went back to same retailer vendor you picked the buffalo drive from and pulled from a different external portable drive list without really trying to go super cheap. OWC elite drives are pretty solid drives that aren't particularly on the low end of scale. The buffalo example from newegg was just only to normalize on vendor.

the cheapest or most expensive isn't the point. The range of USB 3.0 devices prices is far below thunderbolt ones.

Well, only one drive had more than 1 interface, for a start. But you don't really prove anything here, it's not news to me that you can find a drive below $200.



Thunderbolt would be stupid on a $10K array. A $10 Array should have something that blows TB out of the water in throughput and/or concurrency. $400-1500 boxes sure. But too high, TB can't really play there either.

You could certainly divide the disks on two ports, and it remains to be seen what TB 2 is capable of in a scenario where it's used solely for storage. But don't get hung up on $10k, the point is the overhead doesn't matter on a $(n)k anything. ok?


The old classic Firewire prices from years ago? Because just go the same page I pointed to for the USB 3.0 + eSATA solution. It isn't in the Firewire range either. The boutique retail Apple store device you picked out isn't particularly representative of Firewire.

Again, look at gear that can actually make use of the bandwidth, it certainly looks like it doesn't need to offset the price in any meaningful way. And add to that, the prices are likely to go down when the technology matures.


other than SMART info, control caching settings, control sleep, and ability to issue basic SATA commands like secure erase ... no not much.

Are you suggesting that you can not use SCSI control commands with USB? Have you read the USB spec? It's a short introduction that points to the SCSI command manual, a 1900 pages brick.

Thunderbolt is not needed in arrays/RAID products. Thunderbolt is needed where host systems don't have PCI-e slots and want to connect to arrays/RAID like products.

Well… The new Mac Pro is such a product, so it's very much needed in those products if you do not wish to use an adapter.

Applying Thunderbolt to the "box with slots" design always was solving a problem that design didn't have. It is a geeky port so the custom mainboards have it but there are few (if any? ) system vendors that have adopted it for desktop systems. ( even WinPC laptop adoption is relatively anemic so far where eSATA and ExpressCard alternatives were previously standard. ).

Neither eSATA nor ExpressCard are Thunderbolt equivalents.
 
Thunderbolt devices will need to get within $20 of the equivalent USB3 device before its anything but a joke for the mass market.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement. USB 3 and TB are totally different interfaces.

This is not a "slight" premium. This is literally 3-4 times as much for a vastly inferior product. Have fun with that.

If what you have works, then don't upgrade. If you need something faster, then yes, it's going to cost some cash. Like I said, prices are likely to come down anyway. Also, I don't see what's inferior.

That's a nice idea, but it won't happen. The sort of people who buy Mac Pros are also the sort of people who'd pay $100s on a Thunderbolt accessory. The accessory makers know that, and they aren't going to lower their prices just to appeal to that crowd. Remember, every other Apple computer has Thunderbolt.

If there is a motive for companies to make Thunderbolt accessories cheaper, it is to sell to the elusive market of first-year university students who just want an external drive for their 11-inch Macbook Airs because Parallels takes up too much space, and their tight-ass parents bought the entry-level configuration on the basis of 'who needs more than 128 gigabits these days?' People who download movies because their university proxy blocks streaming, that's who.

Once you tap that market, you're in the money.

This is not the way the market works. TB will come down in price, and more affordable devices will be manufactured. I don't know what your rant is about, but hey, vent on brotha.
 
Well, only one drive had more than 1 interface, for a start. But you don't really prove anything here,

You were out to prove that adding TB didn't cost much more.

Drive 1 has USB 3.0 .
Drive 2 has USB 3.0 + Thunderbolt.

There is a difference in price. Your assertion is that even though all the major elements did not change but the addition of thunderbolt that the price change is not particularly motivated by Thunderbolt infrastructure.

Whatever.



Are you suggesting that you can not use SCSI control commands with USB? Have you read the USB spec? It's a short introduction that points to the SCSI command manual, a 1900 pages brick.

Nice attempt at misdirection....

" ... As for USB and FireWire (IEEE 1394) disks and tape drives, the news is not good. They appear to the operating system as SCSI devices but their implementations do not usually support those SCSI commands needed by smartmontools. ... "
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sm...martmontoolsforFireWireUSBandSATAdiskssystems

" ...Some advanced disk drive commands, such as Native Command Queuing, which may increase performance, Secure Erase, which allows all the data on the drive to be securely erased, and S.M.A.R.T., which allows a computer to measure various indicators of drive reliability, exist as extensions to the basic low-level command sets used by hard drives, such as SCSI, SATA, or PATA. These features may not work when hard drives are encapsulated in some disk enclosure supporting the USB mass storage interface. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass_storage_device_class


Neither eSATA nor ExpressCard are Thunderbolt equivalents.

Never said they were. For users though there is a "good enough" class.

For single HDDs though, eSATA and Thunderbolt are equivalent in delivered bandwidth from the device.
 
You were out to prove that adding TB didn't cost much more.


Drive 1 has USB 3.0 .
Drive 2 has USB 3.0 + Thunderbolt.


Nope. I was showing that it's possible to retail a product at $200 with a Thunderbolt interface. The point re interface was that a dual interface drive is closer in spec, I know that two drives was USB only, hence my remark.

Nice attempt at misdirection....

" ... As for USB and FireWire (IEEE 1394) disks and tape drives, the news is not good. They appear to the operating system as SCSI devices but their implementations do not usually support those SCSI commands needed by smartmontools. ... "
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/sm...martmontoolsforFireWireUSBandSATAdiskssystems

" ...Some advanced disk drive commands, such as Native Command Queuing, which may increase performance, Secure Erase, which allows all the data on the drive to be securely erased, and S.M.A.R.T., which allows a computer to measure various indicators of drive reliability, exist as extensions to the basic low-level command sets used by hard drives, such as SCSI, SATA, or PATA. These features may not work when hard drives are encapsulated in some disk enclosure supporting the USB mass storage interface. ..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_mass_storage_device_class

It's no such attempt, instead of quoting some open source project that you just Google'd how about some spec.

Dude, I don't know what your issue is, why do you view a discussion as a competition? Your obviously a poser, your lengthy posts with drivel isn't likely impressing anyone except yourself. I just quoted a price of a Thunderbolt product that I just recently found (the cheapest I've seen so far), in a thread about Thunderbolt peripherals, adoption and prices. What is your problem? Why make everything into an argument?
 
That's a pretty ridiculous statement. USB 3 and TB are totally different interfaces.

Can you tell the manufacturer of Tbolt devices that please, so far all we have had is USB equivalent devices with a thunderbolt connection (Drive Caddies, etc) or thunderbolt to USB3 (with audio and Ethernet thrown in) docks . I don't think the market understands that Tbolt is a different interface to USB because that's how the peripheral creators are treating it, and marketing it, at the moment.

I want actually Thunderbolt devices I need, so external PCIexpress caddies that let me attach PC cards to my iMac , i know its slower than PCIx16, but being able to add even a low spec Nvidia card in an external PCI enclosure for Cuda work would mean i could get rid of a desktop PC im currently using (im still on the ATI equipped iMac, no intention of upgrading the whole rig until its no longer usable)
 
The last part doesn't have much impact on the first. If most Thunderbolt buyers are not money-is-no-object Mac Pro owners why would the TB vendors price their goods to the much smaller group. Wouldn't they want to price the goods so that a somewhat larger target group would buy them?

And until TB can price itself to the larger group, it's basically useless to the PC industry.

If performance isn't a huge issue that is more inexpensively done with a USB 3.0 drive which the 11 MBA has too. Anyone is who is deeply strapped for money is going to choose the "fast enough" option.

People looking to store a limited movie library are gong to slap them onto a inexpensive single HDD that they'll fit onto. Again USB 3.0 can stream that back just fine.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't TB more energy efficient than USB3? That means something to consumers, right?

If you can tap that market with Thunderbolt. Basically aiming at the USB heartland. Good luck, probably not going to get a whole lot of traction.

We had plenty of consumer-friendly external drives with both USB and Firewire ports on them. And that still didn't save Firewire. Thunderbolt needs to do even better than that.
 
Can you tell the manufacturer of Tbolt devices that please, so far all we have had is USB equivalent devices with a thunderbolt connection (Drive Caddies, etc) or thunderbolt to USB3 (with audio and Ethernet thrown in) docks

Docks are not USB equivalent devices. USB can't do a dock of 5-6 ports of different protocols well. USB can't do a dock of 3-4 ports and a LCD panel well. USB can't deliver what would take a x2 (or better ) PCI-e card well (e.g., a entry-mid range RAID card that handle more than one SSD and not throttle ).

You're a bit confused if you think the purpose of Thunderbolt is to make the other ports disappear. Thunderbolts primary task is to move the port off the system host and to a remote device. It is location that changes, not the port or the protocol the end user "plugs into". Since in most cases ports don't disappear, that is why it is kind of goofy to couch it as a "USB" killer or "Firewire Killer" because if the port is still around afterwards it hasn't really "killed" anything.

A TB device may replace a previous external USB hub or Firewire hub but the resemblance is somewhat superficial. Thunderbolt allows both of those to be merged into one device. If get an external dock and only plug into the USB ports for now that doesn't make the same external USB hub if there are FW and Ethernet ports on it too.


You are somewhat correct if look at the set of "as cheap as possible" devices. TB->FW or TB-> Ethernet dongle. Obviously USB has done the latter (usually a bit slower Ethernet but has been done for years. ). USB 3.0 could take a stab at a FW 400 one without getting into isochronous issues. FW 800 might be a bit more tricky.

Single disk portable drive enclosures. Similar issues.

Yes. If those are the 80+ % of TB peripheral devices sold then Thunderbolt is basically a bust. The simple one protocol dongles are primairily motivated by prematurely evicting a socket. The similar solution likely adopted in the mainstream PC designs will likely be "don't do premature evictions". For single drives again it is single data purpose usage and is a primary zone of USB usage and USB is far more ubiquitous.


. I don't think the market understands that Tbolt is a different interface to USB because that's how the peripheral creators are treating it, and marketing it, at the moment.

It is users also, because they are buying and asking for some of this stuff. Demands like "It has to be as cheap as USB before I buy" primarily turn things into something just about as limited as the USB device trying to swap. that is in contrast to trying to do something new and/or consolidating.

For example many of the new Mac Pro "cable explosion" rants about "Oh going to need an external DVD device and external store drives box and ..... " Well errr... both of those are SATA devices. So why not a multiple SATA device box of different drive bay sizes. They don't get there because use USB as a template and there are USB DVD drives already. If multiple devices temporary need a DVD drive then sure the USB one probably works on more computers might share with, but for a deadicated drive that was part of a previous drive bay cluster..... just move it along with the cluster.


I want actually Thunderbolt devices I need, so external PCIexpress caddies that let me attach PC cards to my iMac ,

But there are 3-4 vendors of these devices already. How are the peripheral vendors not actually responding? It don't think Thunderbolt has so far drawn very many vendors into "new" (to them) categories. PCI-e expansion folks are mainly doing PCI-e expansion. Storage folks are mainly doing storage. Individual PCI-e card vendors are wrapping their card's functionality in a box with Thunderbolt port(s).

These PCI-e expansion boxes though slow somewhat the transformation of individual cards into specialized, more effective boxes though.
 
And until TB can price itself to the larger group, it's basically useless to the PC industry.

It isn't price as much as clearly show the value so users and vendors can agree on price. The objective isn't just to be "as cheap" as USB. If the buyers sole and only criteria is a price , not function, then will never catch on to the larger segment of the PC Industry. It is not designed to be a direct one-for-one replacement for the "cheaper than" protocols.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't TB more energy efficient than USB3? That means something to consumers, right?

No it isn't. There may be implementation differences that is not part of the protocol/standard itself. TB requires faster switching and circuits. That is probably pushing Intel to use one of the newest process technologies for implementation. The "absolutely as cheap as possible" USB controller is probably fabbed on much older, mature ( and hence lower cost to produce) technology. The older fab tech can be less energy efficient. However, that is driven by the fab tech, not what is being implement.

Intel being a generation ahead of just about everyone else means they can move their chipsets and discrete controller chip production to what most other companies are using for bleeding edge CPU/GPUs before other I/O controller vendors can.


We had plenty of consumer-friendly external drives with both USB and Firewire ports on them. And that still didn't save Firewire. Thunderbolt needs to do even better than that.

Yeah that why the notion started back in the Lightpeak days of "one port to rule them all" , "Thunderbolt is going to replace everything" probably has done more to retard it moving forward than cheerleading to move it forward.

Even Apple's chart of "oooooooh look longer bandwidth bars versus these other guys, It is super duper" and blatantly false statements like "Thunderbolt is the fastest, most versatile I/O technology there is." do as much damage as they do good. They really don't talk much about what the real, unique value add proposition is.
 
Applying Thunderbolt to the "box with slots" design always was solving a problem that design didn't have. It is a geeky port so the custom mainboards have it but there are few (if any? ) system vendors that have adopted it for desktop systems. ( even WinPC laptop adoption is relatively anemic so far where eSATA and ExpressCard alternatives were previously standard. ).
luckily a few no-names have stepped in to fill that gap

Asus, Gigabyte, AsRock, Acer, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo and Dell immediately come to mind. I'm sure one of them will eventually gain some market footing...
 
I want actually Thunderbolt devices I need, so external PCIexpress caddies that let me attach PC cards to my iMac , i know its slower than PCIx16, but being able to add even a low spec Nvidia card in an external PCI enclosure for Cuda work would mean i could get rid of a desktop PC im currently using (im still on the ATI equipped iMac, no intention of upgrading the whole rig until its no longer usable)

Where does USB 3 do this?
 
luckily a few no-names have stepped in to fill that gap

Asus, Gigabyte, AsRock, Acer, Hewlett-Packard, Lenovo and Dell immediately come to mind. I'm sure one of them will eventually gain some market footing...

Gigabyte and AsRoCk are largely mainboard vendors. I said they had desktop boards which more than likely have gone into custom constructed systems ( and systems from "John Doe's built to order" shops ). [ they have a few systems and having really looks at those. But their board in a box is primarily just different packaging for the board sale. ]


What missing is Dell , HP , Lenovo "box with slots" desktops with Thunderbolt. That have all taken stabs perhaps a couple laptops, typically ultrabooks, with Thunderbolt ( in product line ups consisting of 20-40 products that is anemic. ). Given Intel basically handed them a reference laptop designs with it in it that isn't all that harder to take a stab at. However, You have a link to the product web pages for those thunderbolt desktops from those vendors ? Even surprisingly the all-in-ones have not had steady adoption of TB.


I haven't looked at everything out of the latest trade show in Taipei but talking about shipping stuff. In the past, there have been several concept products that never shipped.

I have no doubt that clones of Intel's Next Generation Computing boxes ( roughly Mac mini like devices ) will pick up in shipments this year. (again because Intel is basically providing something to slap your name on. )
 
Where does USB 3 do this?

It doesnt, But its about the only thing a Tbolt device can do that USB 3 cant, so far the only use i have for any Tbolt device is to give my 2011 iMac USB 3 ports, so i can use cheaper USB devices..

the point of what i said was that device manufacturers are just making Tbolt versions of USB devices, and so the consumer is just seeing TBolt as an expensive version of USB, this is de-valuing the port and its potential.

we need less of these "cheap port" devices, more of the useful ones, like Raid arrays, and PCI chassis (or better yet, the devices i need a PCI slot for making into a Tbolt device)

Also anyone who makes a Tbolt device and doesn't give it two ports for passthrough needs shooting.
 
Also anyone who makes a Tbolt device and doesn't give it two ports for passthrough needs shooting.

It costs substantially more money (substantive relative to typical peripheral margins). If the device is targeted to users who price it can be the difference between being bought or not. Two factors.

First, a 1 port L2210 ( Port Ridge) controller is smaller and cheaper. So Bill of Material (BOM) costs go down.

Second, two ports means need to add additional infrastructure to handle backwards compatibility mode when a user plugs in a DisplayPort (DP) cable+device into one of the boards. It is actually that 'second to last" device whose job it is to decode the DP single out of the TB controller and then back into the port in backwards compatibility mode ( a bit of back into the controller too, plus some overhead.)

[ In part, this is why an Apple Display can't do a directly connected display. The "decoded video off ramp" is for the internal display. There is nothing left to decode another stream. Add another 'headless' TB devices and it has circuits to decode and present.

That thunderbolt does two things means overhead for two things is necessary when have two ports. As a chain ender there is typically no video to handle.

The vendors don't need to be shoot. The additional complexity that implementers have to deal with should be reduced. Then will probably get more dual ports solutions.
 
the point of what i said was that device manufacturers are just making Tbolt versions of USB devices, and so the consumer is just seeing TBolt as an expensive version of USB, this is de-valuing the port and its potential.

we need less of these "cheap port" devices, more of the useful ones, like Raid arrays, and PCI chassis (or better yet, the devices i need a PCI slot for making into a Tbolt device)

Also anyone who makes a Tbolt device and doesn't give it two ports for passthrough needs shooting.

So you want TB to support faster peripherals, but you don't want to pay for it. Sounds reasonable.
 
So you want TB to support faster peripherals, but you don't want to pay for it. Sounds reasonable.

Isn't the whole point of progress getting more for about the same money ?

TB is supposed to be (future) mainstream, not exotic niche technology .
The latter can justify higher prices for better performance, and catering to unique user demands .

Regardless of potential, I believe TB needs to beat USB 3.0 in performance (done), but also come with the pricing, usability and availability of Firewire or even eSATA (not even trying).

And for the new MacPro, it has to happen now, considering all performance crucial data storage is forced to go external .

People can talk all they want about the storage being in the basement anyways - for maximum drive performance, where required, that's still rather uncommon .
 
Isn't the whole point of progress getting more for about the same money ?

Indoor plumbing, running water, and proper sanitation cost more but get better quality (and length) of life. Everything doesn't always boil down to cheaper.

You are spinning TB not as a problem solving solution , but as a competition thing. Competition isn't progress.

TB is supposed to be (future) mainstream, not exotic niche technology .

As PCs generally go smaller TB probably will be mainstream. Laptops took over from desktop of being dominate form. Laptops are continuing to shrink and all-in-ones are largely the only growth category in desktops. As space is squeezed out the role that full sized PCI-e cards played will be a solution space that Thunderbolt steps into.


The latter can justify higher prices for better performance, and catering to unique user demands .

Better performance is a justification in itself for higher prices where it makes a business difference. Long term the price will go down over time, but it is relatively rare faster and cheaper instantly in the same iteration. With most PC technology at this point in the evolution things are faster just to tread water on price. So can continue to charge the same amount. So no it isn't much cheaper.


Regardless of potential, I believe TB needs to beat USB 3.0 in performance (done),

You are twisted on the what the speed is being used for. TB transports the data of other protocols. If TB was slower than those other formats inserting it would slow that data traffic down. That would not create any value. So TB needs to be faster so the "overhead" of encoding-decoding and transport in TB protocol format is transparent to the underlying protocol. Speed is being used to solve a distance-without-penalty problem. Solving that problem is what the speed is for. It is not some marketing crotch grabbing hoo-haa to boast about "my bandwidth is bigger then his bandwidth". The point is to solve the problem of remote location or current stuff with little to no perfomrance impact. That's what TB does.

The point is not to generate the cheapest box. It is to couple multiple boxes together with multiple data streams with little to no performance loss.

When USB 3.0 goes to 10Gb/s then Thunderbolt will have a problem if it can't go to something fast enough to transport it. Having to stay out in front of USB practically guarantees that Thunderbolt is always going to be more expensive given both technologies have the same access to the underlying fabrication technologies. Staying out in front of the other protocols (going faster) and holding costs about the same would be progress.

There is no way Thunderbolt is going to deliver value if it is not tackling the problems it was designed to solve. "As cheap as USB or Firewire" is not what TB was designed for. Never was. All the "one port to rule (and replace) them all" and "Its a USB klller" stuff was always and still is total FUD.

Whether TB costs drop dramatically depends upon how broad the adoption goes. It is a bit artificially high now because Intel is still turning the spigot on to allow device implemenntors into the ecosystem. There is little need or desire for a race to the bottom with crappy/flawed implementations. That is a mentalit that attempts to push the focus on areas where TB and USB overlap a bit. That is just a battle TB just can't win due to USB legacy deployed footprint. Billions of devices is a ton of inertia.





but also come with the pricing, usability and availability of Firewire or even eSATA (not even trying).

Firewire and eSATA don't transport multiple protocols. Neighter one is particular good to hauling data for the other. Nor for multiple instances of itself ( FW800 can't handle two FW800 streams. eSATA isn't going to do concurrent SATA 6Gb/s accesses. )

And for the new MacPro, it has to happen now, considering all performance crucial data storage is forced to go external .

The storage of the Mac Pro isn't zero.

Progress over the next 2-5 years the storage capacity inside the Mac Pro is only going to go up. So the 'enough' treshold will cover a larger number of folks. [ if can optionally put PCI-e SSDs on the back of both GPUs that will only happen faster. ]

People can talk all they want about the storage being in the basement anyways - for maximum drive performance, where required, that's still rather uncommon .

It isn't about all storage being in the basement. It is about bulk and collaborate storage being in the basement. Once bulk gets to certain thresholds putting it all inside of one box increasingly doesn't make sense. Throw collaboration on top it is makes less sense even faster.

Once bulk, typically unchanging, files are separated from temporary/ephemeral working space files that need to be close to memory/CPU these "I need multiple TBs of workspace" claims are those of the relatively few.
 
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So you want TB to support faster peripherals, but you don't want to pay for it. Sounds reasonable.

Sheesh, no i want thunderbolt to stop being marketed as a USB port, with one or two exceptions all im seeing is devices better suited to USB2 (let alone USB3) being shovelwared onto the port, this not doing the port or standard any favours..

The port is being, at the moment, sold as an alternative to USB3, it is not and should not be seen that way, it should co-exist with USB3.

we need two things, the price of Thunderbolt controllers to fall significantly, PC video card makers might then start putting them onto the GPUs for output (so we don't need to use an IGPu and what amounts to clever frame buffer capture software to output to a thunderbolt display, then we might see a market for Thunderbolt monitors pick up, if that picks up, we might see more than Thunderbolt to Usb To sata controllers and Thunderbolt to USB3/Firewire/Audio/Ethernet docks that are 50% over priced .

a Combined effort by Intel to reduce the price and make the standard work, and manufacturers to get off their lazy asses and produce actually Thunderbolt devices that use the potential of the port is needed, otherwise, Firewire repeat here we come.
 
The port is being, at the moment, sold as an alternative to USB3, it is not and should not be seen that way, it should co-exist with USB3.

I don't see it that way. If you want a cheap external drive, get USB 3. Every Mac comes with this. TB is for devices that need more throughput. A RAID array, monitor, Fibre channel card, capture card, etc. Like it or not, TB is more expensive to manufacture, so it's going to cost more. It was also slow to roll out, so we haven't seen prices come down. It's likely to come down in price some in the future. Chances are if you "need" TB, the price isn't that big of a deal.
 
I don't see it that way. If you want a cheap external drive, get USB 3. Every Mac comes with this. TB is for devices that need more throughput. A RAID array, monitor, Fibre channel card, capture card, etc. Like it or not, TB is more expensive to manufacture, so it's going to cost more. It was also slow to roll out, so we haven't seen prices come down. It's likely to come down in price some in the future. Chances are if you "need" TB, the price isn't that big of a deal.

If i want a raid array, its going to be a rack mounted SAN, the days of really needing raid "locally" are as dead as the serial port.

the problem at the moment is there is no "need" for thunderbolt, you can do the job perfectly well, considerably cheaper by USB3 or a normal video output (HDMI, DVI whathaveyou) Thunderbolt as a display standard is not something ill care about until Nvidia/Ati start putting thunderbolt outputs on the video cards they sell, until then, what use is a thunderbolt monitor unless your using a Macbook or other apple device, which at the moment, means your using crippled hardware.. For anyone in need of video output from a performance card(or 4 card series), Thunderbolt is not a display standard, its a non-starter.
 
It seems to me that TB is far more useful in a portable environment, where board real estate and room for ports is at a premium. For a desktop ... less so. We have eSATA, USB 3 and connectors for video that work pretty much OK as far as I can see.

Apple wants to push the industry (with Intel) toward this interface so I'll presume that the company will go all in. Who and how many follow with what is what's interesting to me.
 
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