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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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Which one do you recommend? Or would an M1/M1X Mac be better?
Thunderbolt isn't required for XDR unless you want USB 3.0 from the XDR, so any supported 5000 or 6000 series GPU should work. If it doesn't have USB-C like the Radeon Pro W7500 does, then a Belkin Charge and Sync cable should work.

If you want Thunderbolt, then the Blackmagic eGPU or the Sonnet eGPU Breakaway Puck 5500 XT or 5700 will work.
 

- rob -

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Apr 18, 2012
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Oakland, CA
Maybe an eGPU would help by moving the display rendering for the XDR off of the MacBook Pro?
It definitely would. I run a 2018 Intel mini with the standard Blackmagic egpu and it’s silent under load. The mini fan is the loudest thing in my workstation. If noise is an issue Apple Silicon is definitely the way to go.

The BM egpu is virtually silent, and wouldn’t recommend anything else like custom etc due to stability issues.

That said, I’m planning to liquidate both the mini and egpu for the M1X provided the rumored 32 core materializes and it can outperform ye’ olde Vega 56 without any egpu. I might wait into 2022 though.

It takes so long to set up a new system just right for me that if I was in your shoes I might consider getting an egpu With a plan to sell both for an M1X if it materializes as above.

However, we are only weeks away from knowing that, so maybe just stick with the jet engine for now.

It’s weird with the XDR, it is your anchor, everything else now goes the replacement cycles. I’m curious if and when Apple will release an xdr update.
 
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- rob -

macrumors 65816
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Apr 18, 2012
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I've thought a fair amount about the GPU performance potential of the M1X or M2 Mac Mini.


In my mind, Apple must at least provide graphics performance beyond these two "official" eGPUs: the RX580 Blackmagic and the (now discontinued) Vega 56 Blackmagic Pro.

Otherwise, even though single-threaded / multi-threaded will still massively dominate at low power to-boot, somehow Apple will still not have been able to beat Intel-era compute.

It would prevent someone like me from upgrading, because I need at least the GPU I have now for a variety of reasons, beyond just smooth display on the XDR Pro monitor. (Based on this post from a new XDR owner yesterday, I'm not the only one in this situation.)

<speculation>

I had hoped Apple would put out a hockey puck-style eGPU that would augment any Apple Silicon product. (I still suspect a major AS-based extension of the Afterburner Mac Pro product concept)

However, now I think the rumored increased GPU core count options of 16 and 32 will potentially be a substantial enough boost to stave off the need for an Apple eGPU line.

This would mean the new Mini would be more powerful than the 2018, totally wiping away the footprint of this big eGPU from the desk. (quite a feat).

Naturally, I wanted to estimate what performance expectations would be necessary for Apple to at least match or handily beat the Blackmagic Pro.

I created a spreadsheet to estimate the potential boost of these additional cores, using the Geekbench 5 Metal Score as the benchmark. (I realize GB benchmarks are not holy grail, but its what I had at hand)

First, I have benchmarks for my 2018 mini with the RX580 BM which has a metal score of 34362.
Then I went looking for a benchmark of the BM Pro, which I believe is 55116.

Then I used the iPhone 13 and iPhone 13 Pro metal scores to establish some baseline performance gain from adding a GPU core.

The iPhone 13 and 13 pro go from 5 to 6 GPU cores with GB5 Metal scores of 10608 and 14216 that's a 34% increase from adding a single GPU core. (This MR article focuses on the 13 to 13 Pro score GPU score increase.)

I then built out adding more GPU cores, going from 6 to 32 and added a field to get a mean average increase per additional core. It does not make sense to see 34% every core, the metal score for a 32 core M1X with this trend is over 38 million. o_O

I do not know how core scaling actually affects compute capability--but I decided to work backward from my hypothesis that Apple would seek to at least best the BM Pro, Vega 56 score.

I arrived at 8% as a possible mean average increase in Metal compute with each additional GPU core added.

If Apple can achieve an average of 8% average GB5 Metal Compute score for every GPU core added on the M1X, a theoretical 16 core model would see a GB Metal score of 33147, and a 32 core would see a metal score of 113,558.

That would mean the new "regular" M1X mac mini would roughly match having the existing BM eGPU, and the 32 would double the performance of the Vega 56.

FWIW, the Vega 56 is not considered a very performant GPU at this point, it is super old and derided by GPU people. So in that way, many may not be impressed.

However, in my experience for common computing (and pushing the XDR hard) the RX580 is decent enough. So doubling the Vega 56's performance without an eGPU would be quite an achievement. It would serve intense graphics performance and at least offer a nod toward AI / ML work.

Here's a link to the spreadsheet I made, you can make a copy to edit and adjust the Mean Increase Per Core.

I made a lot of assumptions in trying to get to this, so there could be obvious or subtle mistakes. I'd be happy to get feedback or improvements to the sheet. If you want edit access to the above, message me and you can rework it in a new tab for others to see.
 

jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
A metal score of 113k would be amazing. That would put it on par with the 3070 mobile GPU on the Windows side which also gets 113k in Geekbench (OpenCL).

Personally I'm expecting at least 80k for the 32 core. Anything less than that would be incredibly disappointing and if that happens I'll probably just hold out for the Mac Pro.
 
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killawat

macrumors 68000
Sep 11, 2014
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I agree with the sentiment. I have been infatuated with eGPUs since the Expresscard days, anxiously waiting for the latest MacBooks to finally offer easy to use performant eGPUs right in macOS. It seemed like a dream come true. Why would I want an M1 Mac that takes this away after I've waited so long for it's release? Honestly I hadn't even considered an M1 before now due to this.

Now everything's changed. With the wacky GPU pricing and great M1 performance, I'd be willing to give it all away for an M1.
 
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fng2022

macrumors newbie
Oct 17, 2021
2
1
I was wondering if any display owners with the nano texture has ever noticed what I am seeing on my display. After the bezel I have a lighter shaded border that runs around a darker rectangle in center of the screen. The darker area is about 90% of the screen and the lighter border taking up 10% of the outer edge of the active image area. Anyone see this with their nano texture displays? It’s only noticeable with the display off and at certain angles. I happened to notice this while wiping off some dust with the apple cloth and was wondering if this was normal. Any help appreciated!
 

- rob -

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Apr 18, 2012
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Oakland, CA
Anyone see this with their nano texture displays? It’s only noticeable with the display off and at certain angles. I happened to notice this while wiping off some dust with the apple cloth and was wondering if this was normal. Any help appreciated!
Thanks for posting your question.

I have a nano and just turned off the display and tried to inspect it with my iPhone flashlight. I do not see the border you're describing. (Though, I did see a bunch of dust and smudges I did not realize had built up :)

How long have you had your XDR? Could the border be residue that has gathered dust? I posted some photos of the residue on my XDR nano when it was just out of the box. That residue took vigorous cleaning with the provided cloth to remove, and IIRC was only obvious with the screen off.

In my photos, the residue is uneven because the screen protecting film had bubbled up in those places. If the screen protecting film was perfectly placed prior to shipping, I could see how a possibly uniform rectangle of residue would create a sense of a border inside the bezel.

If that were the case, the good news is it can all be wiped off, the bad news is it is a pain and nerve-wracking to make that much contact with the XDR's panel.

Can you capture the border you're seeing in a photo?
 

fng2022

macrumors newbie
Oct 17, 2021
2
1
Thanks for posting your question.

I have a nano and just turned off the display and tried to inspect it with my iPhone flashlight. I do not see the border you're describing. (Though, I did see a bunch of dust and smudges I did not realize had built up :)

How long have you had your XDR? Could the border be residue that has gathered dust? I posted some photos of the residue on my XDR nano when it was just out of the box. That residue took vigorous cleaning with the provided cloth to remove, and IIRC was only obvious with the screen off.

In my photos, the residue is uneven because the screen protecting film had bubbled up in those places. If the screen protecting film was perfectly placed prior to shipping, I could see how a possibly uniform rectangle of residue would create a sense of a border inside the bezel.

If that were the case, the good news is it can all be wiped off, the bad news is it is a pain and nerve-wracking to make that much contact with the XDR's panel.

Can you capture the border you're seeing in a photo?
Hehe :). I noticed it because I was cleaning my screen with the apple cloth. If you look at this picture you can see a distinct light to dark from the bezel inward. It goes all around the display. I’ve opened a ticket with Apple support and will probably need to take it in. In your pictures it almost seems like you have something similar..

Thanks for taking the time to respond! I’ll let you know what Apple says. I guess I could go look at an iMac with nano and see if there is something similar.

Edit: I got this display earlier this year. So its still under warranty and applecare so I’m not too worried.
 

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- rob -

macrumors 65816
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Apr 18, 2012
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Well, no mini, but some amazing laptops, nonetheless.

Event Video Link

A Blackmagic Pro eGPU just went up on eBay for $650. Should be a stream of those showing up for bargains soon.

XDR Pro Display was mentioned and shown in a few of the event videos, here's what I caught:

  • M1 Pro SoC supports two XDR Pro Display monitors.
  • M1 Max SoC was highlighted (Connectivity: Display Support -> 33:50):
    • Supports three XDR Pro Displays and a 4k television simultaneously ? I know we have some 3 XDR Pro display users in here. Anyone do that with a 4k now? What graphics systems are you using to pull that off currently?
    • "75 Million pixels of real estate."
    • Highlighted still having free ports with this setup.
      m1-max-external-display-xdr-pro-4k-75-million-pixels.jpg
  • The product video shows a developer presumably writing some programmatic 3d animation. Maybe AR jellyfish? :

    m1-max-external-display-xdr-pro-4k-developer-ar.jpg
  • Afterburner was mentioned only as a comparison of the M1 Pro's performance over the the 28 core Mac Pro "with Afterburner."
Anyone dumping their Intel setup for one of these laptops? I'm probably going to hold on to my 2018 mini and BM eGPU until a (hopefully) M2 Mini drops, uh, at WWDC 2022?
?
 
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joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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Supports three XDR Pro Displays and a 4k television simultaneously ? I know we have some 3 XDR Pro display users in here. Anyone do that with a 4k now? What graphics systems are you using to pull that off currently?
What's unknown is how many displays can be connected to Thunderbolt for the M1 Max. Is it 3 or 4? 4 would allow two LG UltraFine 5K displays while 3 would allow only 1. They do not mention LG UltraFine 5K displays at all. In terms of XDR displays, 4 could allow 4 XDR displays (at least one of the Thunderbolt ports would require a Thunderbolt dock or hub or dual DisplayPort output).
 

- rob -

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Apr 18, 2012
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What's unknown is how many displays can be connected to Thunderbolt for the M1 Max. Is it 3 or 4?
Good question. It does seem ambiguous.

Here are the sides as per the product page:

side_right__s9xdj737o2ai_medium_2x.jpg

Going by the screenshot with headphones and an SLR, presuming they mean for the headphones and camera to consume one USB-C / TB each. (I don't know pro media workflows, but presumably Pro HD audio requires a TB?)


side_left__curm9wcfx2wm_medium_2x.jpg

If that was the case, there would be one remaining TB port for three daisy chained XDR Pro Displays, and the HDMI port for the 4k monitor.

I suppose they could mean for the headphones to actually use the headphone jack. If you can daisy chain three XDR Pro Displays, that would free up a TB for a fourth display.

Though, the fact that Apple didn't say a 4th was supported suggests to me maybe it isn't.

4k2k is max 4096 × 2304 or 9,437,184 pixels.
XDR Pro Display is 6016 x 3384 or 20,358,144

As per their claim of 75 Million pixels, XDR * 3 + 4k2k above = 70,511,616.

That's 5 million shy of their claim of 75 million pixel support.

However, 4 * XDR = 81,432,576

That's 6.5 million more pixels. So that perhaps is a display too many for the M1 Max?
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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Good question. It does seem ambiguous.

Here are the sides as per the product page:

View attachment 1870591
Going by the screenshot with headphones and an SLR, presuming they mean for the headphones and camera to consume one USB-C / TB each. (I don't know pro media workflows, but presumably Pro HD audio requires a TB?)


View attachment 1870590
If that was the case, there would be one remaining TB port for three daisy chained XDR Pro Displays, and the HDMI port for the 4k monitor.

I suppose they could mean for the headphones to actually use the headphone jack. If you can daisy chain three XDR Pro Displays, that would free up a TB for a fourth display.

Though, the fact that Apple didn't say a 4th was supported suggests to me maybe it isn't.

4k2k is max 4096 × 2304 or 9,437,184 pixels.
XDR Pro Display is 6016 x 3384 or 20,358,144

As per their claim of 75 Million pixels, XDR * 3 + 4k2k above = 70,511,616.

That's 5 million shy of their claim of 75 million pixel support.

However, 4 * XDR = 81,432,576

That's 6.5 million more pixels. So that perhaps is a display too many for the M1 Max?
USB devices can be connected to the XDR displays.

XDR displays cannot be daisy chained. You can connect two to a Thunderbolt 4 hub. Therefore 4 displays only requires two Thunderbolt ports. Do the new M1 Pro/Max allow two displays for a single Thunderbolt port using a Thunderbolt dock/hub/adapter? Does the M1 Max allow four displays on one side of the Mac Book Pro, or maybe it's two displays per side like Intel MacBook Pros?
 

- rob -

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Apr 18, 2012
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USB devices can be connected to the XDR displays.
Ah. Sure. I'm not sure it makes sense for them to have made a point about still being able to plug in more accessories because you can plug in tons of stuff into the back of multiple XDRs and the hubs they require.

I presumed they meant plugging into the laptop when they were talking about still having room for more devices.

XDR displays cannot be daisy chained. You can connect two to a Thunderbolt 4 hub. Therefore 4 displays only requires two Thunderbolt ports.
TIL. Thank you. I have not used a hub like this, since I use the back of the BM eGPU--and, ahem, have but a single XDR Pro Display. Presumably, something like this suffices?
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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This may be a dumb question, but will the LG Ultrafine 4k daisy-chain to the Pro Display XDR? Would be nice to go Macbook->UltraFine->Pro Display XDR

Seems to be the only display with an extra thunderbolt port for daisy-chaining.

That will work if you have a MacBook Pro with a GPU that supports DSC (Ice Lake CPU, Apple Silicon CPU, or 5600M, maybe 5300M?). If you don't have DSC, then the XDR will only work at up to 4K.
 
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kwijbo

macrumors 6502
Jan 28, 2012
252
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@joevt since you are the resident display expert I'm hoping you can chime in on my rambling:

Just thinking about where a next gen display could go, it seems apple is pushing higher resolution where possible (it seems 6k is a reasonable ceiling for now), 120hz ProMotion and Mini-LED.

So if I were to dream up a new PD-XDR, it'd be 6k 120hz and Mini-LED, would that even be possible over TB4? My understanding is bandwidth is the same as TB3, so 120hz would double the current requirements and hit the limits of TB4?

Where do the new MBP display bandwidth numbers come in - 3456 x 2234 and 120hz, does Apple need to use a proprietary internal connection to achieve that?

I also wonder, since the XDR is a niche product and given Apple's previous display update cadence, perhaps theres nothing on the horizon until 2023 when Micro-LED is production ready? And a higher bandwidth standard is available?
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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So if I were to dream up a new PD-XDR, it'd be 6k 120hz and Mini-LED, would that even be possible over TB4? My understanding is bandwidth is the same as TB3, so 120hz would double the current requirements and hit the limits of TB4?
6K = 6016x3384.

Apple uses HBR2 link rate with 12bpc, DSC @ 12bpp for the XDR to do 1286.01 MHz. (15.4 Gbps)

Without DSC, Apple uses dual tile mode HBR3 link rate 30bpp/10bpc to do two tiles of 648.91 MHz (38.9 Gbps) but there isn't enough bandwidth remaining for full USB 3.0 speed (4 Gbps) and Apple doesn't allow this mode with a optical cable or with a Thunderbolt dock between the XDR and the Mac.

To create your own timing, you can find a CVT-RB calculator online or use SwitchResX or edid-decode.

6K 120Hz = 2620.32 MHz (using CVT-RB2). At HBR3 link rate, you would need DSC @ 8bpp (21.0 Gbps).
If we do a dual tile mode, then each tile would be 1327.25 MHz. We can do two of those tiles using HBR2 link rate with DSC @ 12bpp (31.9 Gbps).
In either case, we would be able to use USB 3.0 at full speed and use a Thunderbolt dock and/or optical cable.

Where do the new MBP display bandwidth numbers come in - 3456 x 2234 and 120hz, does Apple need to use a proprietary internal connection to achieve that?
That requires between 1003MHz and 1026MHz. That can be done with HBR3 link rate at 24 bpp but that's not good enough for HDR so you would probably add DSC. If it were a dual tile display like the iMac 5K Retina displays, then DSC would not be required. Dual tile would reduce the number of total displays though.

I also wonder, since the XDR is a niche product and given Apple's previous display update cadence, perhaps theres nothing on the horizon until 2023 when Micro-LED is production ready? And a higher bandwidth standard is available?
Higher bandwidth is not required unless you don't like DSC which is supposed to be visually lossless but is maybe unacceptable in some situations (maybe medical imagery - maybe the XDR wouldn't be used for that even without DSC if you don't like local dimming zones).
 
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- rob -

macrumors 65816
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Apr 18, 2012
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Sounds like you can now buy the cloth that comes with the nano-texture XDR Pro Display.

IIRC, previously if you needed another one of these, XDR owners with the nano option could contact Apple.

Did anyone do that? Did Apple charge for it?

Did anyone do a dive on what makes this cloth special, or not special?

If it isn’t special, why did Apple make such a point about its use?

Curious, in part because the thread for the above-linked article has much fun suggesting the cloth lacks tangible difference from other microfiber type screen wipes.
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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That requires between 1003MHz and 1026MHz. That can be done with HBR3 link rate at 24 bpp but that's not good enough for HDR so you would probably add DSC. If it were a dual tile display like the iMac 5K Retina displays, then DSC would not be required. Dual tile would reduce the number of total displays though.
Another possibility is that Apple is using a special connection or higher link rate. HBR3 uses a multiplier of 30 (30 x 0.27 Gbps = 8.1 Gbps per lane on the wire). A multiplier of 35 or 36 would be sufficient for 3456x2234@120Hz (that's 9.45 or 9.72 Gbps for each lane). Arbitrary multipliers is usually not a thing, except Apple has used a non-standard multiple of 12 for its VGA adapters (3.24 Gbps per lane on the wire which is twice that of RBR link rate).
RBR = 6
HBR = 10
3_24 = 12
HBR2 = 20
HBR3 = 30
 

itsphilgeorge

macrumors regular
Nov 22, 2020
127
83
Another possibility is that Apple is using a special connection or higher link rate. HBR3 uses a multiplier of 30 (30 x 0.27 Gbps = 8.1 Gbps per lane on the wire). A multiplier of 35 or 36 would be sufficient for 3456x2234@120Hz (that's 9.45 or 9.72 Gbps for each lane). Arbitrary multipliers is usually not a thing, except Apple has used a non-standard multiple of 12 for its VGA adapters (3.24 Gbps per lane on the wire which is twice that of RBR link rate).
RBR = 6
HBR = 10
3_24 = 12
HBR2 = 20
HBR3 = 30
Did you ever figure out how to get the M1 to run at any higher than 6016 pixels? Still sitting here with my LG 5K2K unable to use it how I want.
 

petardosh

macrumors member
Oct 21, 2021
36
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I'm about to put down an order for the XDR and the new M1 Pro to replace my 27" 5K IMac to make my WFH setup more flexible. One of the things I haven't figured out yet is a solution to switch between my work and private MBP without plugging cables every time.

There are switches available for Display Port 1.4 and the idea is to use that switch with three USB-C to Display Port cables that are 1.4 / 8K certified. The XDR technical manual specifies it requires Display Stream Compression (DSC) and Forward Error Correction (FEC) to work. It is not clear whether any 1.4 Display Port supports those or it is an optional feature. Do not have a need for a full KVM solution but only video switching.

Has anyone tried this setup or has another recommendation to make this work?
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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I'm about to put down an order for the XDR and the new M1 Pro to replace my 27" 5K IMac to make my WFH setup more flexible. One of the things I haven't figured out yet is a solution to switch between my work and private MBP without plugging cables every time.

There are switches available for Display Port 1.4 and the idea is to use that switch with three USB-C to Display Port cables that are 1.4 / 8K certified. The XDR technical manual specifies it requires Display Stream Compression (DSC) and Forward Error Correction (FEC) to work. It is not clear whether any 1.4 Display Port supports those or it is an optional feature. Do not have a need for a full KVM solution but only video switching.

Has anyone tried this setup or has another recommendation to make this work?
XDR only needs cable or switch certified for DisplayPort 1.2 (HBR2 link rate). I don't think it supports HBR3 link rate except for Thunderbolt connection to non-DSC supporting GPUs.
DSC is supported by Apple Silicon, Ice Lake, Tiger Lake, AMD 5000 series (Navi or RDNA) including 5500M (and maybe 5300M?), 6000 series (Navi2 or RDNA2), and RTX series.

Use the Belkin Charge and Sync cable because it includes USB 2.0 with the USB-C connection. It only support HBR2 link rate but that's all that's needed for the XDR with DSC. The USB connection is required to use the USB features of the XDR (brightness control, presets, ...).
 

joevt

macrumors 604
Jun 21, 2012
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Did you ever figure out how to get the M1 to run at any higher than 6016 pixels? Still sitting here with my LG 5K2K unable to use it how I want.
I don't have an M1 so I haven't looked into it. My idea would be to use Hopper disassembler or similar to find the 6016 limit (either in kext or display framework) then alter it somehow (maybe with a kext that works like Lilu and WhateverGreen - can they be compiled for Apple Silicon?)
 
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