Putting new Mac Pro myths to rest

[VirtualRain]

And where is the PCIe SSD slot on the back of these?

The notion that these are not highly customized boards is way off. Started from same reference design and have mostly the same logical block functionality layout ? Sure. But Apple ( or subcontractor) probably had to put in alot of work and AMD likely would have to run driver validation on these new boards. ( The latter shouldn't be too hard if mainly just customizing thermals and placement and not services/functionality provided by the card. )

How this is mounted/coupled to the central thermal core is going to be key. I doubt starting with a generic physical placement card where the thermals are adapted to it is going to work well with that.

I wonder if the GPUs and CPU will have IHS lids or be naked. Given the minimalist design, I would wager on naked in the interest of maximum thermal performance. While this would not affect the GPUs as those are clearly not going to be upgradable parts, this could make CPU replacement even more challenging if not impossible.

 

[tuxon86]

I wonder if the GPUs and CPU will have IHS lids or be naked. Given the minimalist design, I would wager on naked in the interest of maximum thermal performance. While this would not affect the GPUs as those are clearly not going to be upgradable parts, this could make CPU replacement even more challenging if not impossible.

Depends on Intel if they want 2 sku for a single chip. The few picture I can find show the E5 v2 with a lid. So unless Intel wants to make two version of the exact same chip...

 

[wonderspark]

Damn, you just took the jam out of my doughnut with that thought. I hope they don't do that, but it makes some sense... grrrr!

 

[flat five]

Given that I don't believe the price to buy the entire Mac Pro will be $4k (perhaps a fully kitted out one might break that price range, but the stock definitely won't), I also consider the price for Apple to repair the machine for you to be considerably less...


Of course, I hope that too.. But who will make the GPU replacement? Only Apple... I'm not so sure you will be able to go out and buy these cards

it's not so much of a concern (of mine) if apple is doing the fixing or i am doing the fixing.. i just want to know that the things are fixable.. i replaced a blown gpu once and mikey's did it another time (gpu blew the day before i left town for a job.. had a friend drop it off while i was out then came home to a 5770)..

logistically, i hope apple authorized service centers can at least fix the things because there's one in my neighborhood.. the 5 local apple stores are only local in that they're in the same city as me.. i still have to take a train or cab to get to them where as mikey's is just down the street (fwiw, i have carried a macpro on a train, 3 times, and it's not too cool.. the new mac will make that scenario a lot better.. just throw it in a backpack, you know)

anyway, it does make me wonder if apple can fix it or a service center can fix it.. why can't a user fix it too? even if you have to buy parts from apple.

 

[deconstruct60]

I wonder if the GPUs and CPU will have IHS lids or be naked. Given the minimalist design, I would wager on naked in the interest of maximum thermal performance.

There are some pictures. Again off Apple's site without the disco....

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ [ NOTE: GPUs cards probably are not in normal place... but there is a 'plate' that is going to touch first when they are. ]


Neither GPU or CPU chip package appear to be directly coupled to the thermal core. They are doing to needs a some sort of heat pump to pull the heat and create a greater contact area to spread the heat to the central core.

It really isn't "thinner foils" but the surface area in which is being leveraged to do transfer. ( can get more contact in same volume with thinner rather than thicker foils, but 'thin' isn't the first principle issue). Want to be able to transfer out faster than the transfer is coming in through most of the operating envelope.

 

[Tesselator]

Thanks for the advice!

Just had a look at a T3600 on the Dell site and for a 8 core 2.4 - 64gb of 1600mhz ECC RAM, a 512 SSD with Dual Firepro 2gb W5000 - price is about £4900 about $7600.

RAM and SSD aren't up to quoted nMP 768gb 1800mhz.

Do you think this will still be below the price of a comparable nMP?

Yeah, no idea... No one will know till Apple lists it.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Originally Posted by netkas View Post
GPU Vendors write their drivers themselves, it takes huge amount of work to write and maintain graphics drivers, and only their vendors can do it.

Also you can check copyright in nvidia and amd drivers and...surprise, authors is nvidia and and.


Interesting, but irrelevant in any case. Do you think Apple will pass on say $1,000 in graphics card licensing fees on every Mac Pro to AMD? Is NOT going to happen, that is ludicrous. Apple gets any graphics code for free and negotiates an aggressive hardware cost.

Besides I'm sure the drivers are a collaboration, Apple has many predilections (such as for AirPlay) that must be added.]

Its relevant in every sense of the word. The high cost of workstation graphic cards is not just in the hardware itself.

I think netkas got close to the issue at hand. I believe the workstation drivers are more highly developed than their consumer counter parts for stability and reliability.

Any professional that uses such equipment to make a living must depend on it to be reliable everyday without fail. Any down time can cost them money.

Also they certify that their workstation cards will work without any problems with a long list of professional software.

That takes a long time to do so and any time this professional software gets updated/upgraded with new features, bug fixes and performance enhancements the graphic cards must again tested.

Thats why these workstation cards are sometime 3 or 4 times the cost of consumer cards.

 

[VirtualRain]

Its relevant in every sense of the word. The high cost of workstation graphic cards is not just in the hardware itself.

I think netkas got close to the issue at hand. I believe the workstation drivers are more highly developed than their consumer counter parts for stability and reliability.

Any professional that uses such equipment to make a living must depend on it to be reliable everyday without fail. Any down time can cost them money.

Also they certify that their workstation cards will work without any problems with a long list of professional software.

That takes a long time to do so and any time this professional software gets updated/upgraded with new features, bug fixes and performance enhancements the graphic cards must again tested.

Thats why these workstation cards are sometime 3 or 4 times the cost of consumer cards.

Which raises the (somewhat rhetorical) question... What level of driver quality assurance will we get with the new Mac Pro?

There are some pictures. Again off Apple's site without the disco....

Image

http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/ [ NOTE: GPUs cards probably are not in normal place... but there is a 'plate' that is going to touch first when they are. ]


Neither GPU or CPU chip package appear to be directly coupled to the thermal core. They are doing to needs a some sort of heat pump to pull the heat and create a greater contact area to spread the heat to the central core.

Agreed, from photos of the backsides of the boards you can see the heat sink brace which undoubtedly attaches some kind of copper plate with heat pipes to the GPU/CPU. I'm thinking if Apple really wants to optimize thermal performance, they will go with lidless chips like they have in the current Dual Processor Mac Pros. It's also pretty typical to use naked GPUs (no IHS) in my experience.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Which raises the (somewhat rhetorical) question... What level of driver quality assurance will we get with the new Mac Pro?

It should be the same support for any workstation graphic card regardless of the platform where its supported. I'm sure Apple was in talks with AMD long before the decision to put them in the new Mac Pro.

 

[Cubemmal]

Its relevant in every sense of the word. The high cost of workstation graphic cards is not just in the hardware itself.

I think netkas got close to the issue at hand. I believe the workstation drivers are more highly developed than their consumer counter parts for stability and reliability.

Any professional that uses such equipment to make a living must depend on it to be reliable everyday without fail. Any down time can cost them money.

Also they certify that their workstation cards will work without any problems with a long list of professional software.

That takes a long time to do so and any time this professional software gets updated/upgraded with new features, bug fixes and performance enhancements the graphic cards must again tested.

Thats why these workstation cards are sometime 3 or 4 times the cost of consumer cards.

Sure, whatever. I guarantee Apple is not going to give AMD a $1000 licensing fee for every new Mac Pro sold, and will not jack up the price therefore by $1500 (to cover Apple margins) for that little bit of code they got from them, thereby turning a (say) $2500 workstation into a $4000 starting workstation. Or maybe Apple is feeling generous and just passes on the cost directly without markup (uh, yeah that happens too.) Why am I wasting my time discussing this?

 

[linuxcooldude]

Sure, whatever. I guarantee Apple is not going to give AMD a $1000 licensing fee for every new Mac Pro sold, and will not jack up the price therefore by $1500 (to cover Apple margins) for that little bit of code they got from them, thereby turning a (say) $2500 workstation into a $4000 starting workstation. Or maybe Apple is feeling generous and just passes on the cost directly without markup (uh, yeah that happens too.) Why am I wasting my time discussing this?

I'm sure there will be some kind discount Apple will get for using them in their new workstations. Just don't expect it to be the same how they might price their consumer cards. But either way the higher cost will be passed down to the customer eventually.

 

[liquid stereo]

Because you are Nerdus Superiori

Why am I wasting my time discussing this?

You started this foolish thread. Next time put your hands to other "work."

 

[Cubemmal]

But either way the higher cost will be passed down to the customer eventually.

Not necessarily, that's my point. You guys have to work in this business to see how it goes. AMD charges that much for "pro" cards to pay for the R&D required to bless them as pro, because the volumes are so low, and more importantly because the market will bear those costs. Selling two on every Mac Pro is huge volumes - they certainly don't need to recoup any R&D costs and if they tried those margins they would make less money overall.

You started this foolish thread. Next time put your hands to other "work."

You're going to waste time on this "foolish" thread by making a post with null content? If you think it's foolish just go elsewhere, you're certainly not adding anything to the conversation.

 

[VirtualRain]

Why am I wasting my time discussing this?

You started this foolish thread.

LOL... you have to love the irony of starting a thread and then complaining it's wasting your time a few pages into it. Priceless!

 

[linuxcooldude]

Selling two on every Mac Pro is huge volumes - they certainly don't need to recoup any R&D costs and if they tried those margins they would make less money overall.

Two in every Mac Pro for a niche market. Don't forget, this is not just a one time R&D cost. This is a constant process with every pro application out there that need drivers updated & their graphic cards tested with each new pro software revision. That can add up significantly over time.

I'm guessing they also have buy every Pro application software their testing it with and also buy any upgrades that come along with it. That also adds to the price.

 

[Cubemmal]

LOL... you have to love the irony of starting a thread and then complaining it's wasting your time a few pages into it. Priceless!

Well I was actually complaining about it being the 10th time I had explained the economics of a BOM - I was getting tired of the continual education on this point.

Two in every Mac Pro for a niche market. Don't forget, this is not just a one time R&D cost. This is a constant process with every pro application out there that need drivers updated & their graphic cards tested with each new pro software revision. That can add up significantly over time.

Sure I live this every day. It doesn't matter, in this economy a few micromarkets (and the Pro isn't a micro market) count up to a big piece of change. Companies are aggressively going after every market then can profitably get.

I'm guessing they also have buy every Pro application software their testing it with and also buy any upgrades that come along with it. That also adds to the price.

I doubt that. Microsoft has buildings full of testers. Apple? Serious trouble believing that.

Look, it's a team of say four hardware engineers and maybe a half dozen software. How much is that about 2 million per year in R&D (hardware engineers cost around $150-200k and software $100k-$150k plus over head) about ? Plus the engineers probably float around, the software guys certainly work on other projects and are pulled in when needed. Say a 1M to 1.5M for a year or two. On a product with a 40% markup probably, and what are the present Mac Pro volumes? I'm not sure I remember, but I recall hearing estimates in the tens of thousands per month.

Apple, like every other company, picks the price based on "marketing savvy". This usually means whatever the market will bear, with consideration to the margins/volumes to maximize the Pereto chart of profit, with growth typically being the most important consideration. This isn't a science which is why marketing people sit around and talk a lot before coming up with the magic number.

All I'm saying is, I can easily be dead wrong, but if I was on Apple's marketing I'd specify a product that starts at $2k, because that would line it up with the rest of them (Apple sales drop off a cliff at $2.5k from what we could see with the 17") and drive volume from the prosumers. It's then the engineering (and contract negotiation) to make it happen.

 

[linuxcooldude]

I doubt that. Microsoft has buildings full of testers. Apple? Serious trouble believing that.

Not talking about Apple. But primarily with AMD & Nvidia. I'm not sure if they are going to bother with all the trouble in certifying their workstation cards if they are just breaking even with their R&D costs. They are a business and adding a profit on top of the extra service they provide is to be expected. Even if that markup goes beyond expectations of what people should think it should cost.

Its still early yet and don't know what and how many configurations of the new Mac Pro will be. And how much each will cost.

 

[Cubemmal]

Not talking about Apple. But primarily with AMD & Nvidia. I'm not sure if they are going to bother with all the trouble in certifying their workstation cards if they are just breaking even with their R&D costs. They are a business and adding a profit on top of the extra service they provide is to be expected. Even if that markup goes beyond expectations of what people should think it should cost.

Again with Apple volumes, even if on a lower volume seller like Mac Pro, it's not about that. Apple goes to Nvidia and AMD and says "We've got a new product, it's a groundbreaking desktop, do you want to be showcased?" As the underdog AMD goes for it, but has to do it at a price. I know for a fact this is how it works.

Its still early yet and don't know what and how many configurations of the new Mac Pro will be. And how much each will cost.

Of course.

 

[linuxcooldude]

Again with Apple volumes, even if on a lower volume seller like Mac Pro, it's not about that. Apple goes to Nvidia and AMD and says "We've got a new product, it's a groundbreaking desktop, do you want to be showcased?" As the underdog AMD goes for it, but has to do it at a price. I know for a fact this is how it works.

Apple is making a big push to OpenCL and that means its more likely to be AMD. Nvidia is primarily on CUDA. Its own Professional apps are enhanced for OpenCL.

Its not quite as dramatic reasoning as you think it is about. Its about what platform will work best for Apple.

 

[Cubemmal]

Apple is making a big push to OpenCL and that means its more likely to be AMD. Nvidia is primarily on CUDA. Its own Professional apps are enhanced for OpenCL.

Its not quite as dramatic reasoning as you think it is about. Its about what platform will work best for Apple.

I agree on that, with the OpenCL support the choice is fairly clear. However, having been on many of these kinds of deals I can say that it is that dramatic. With three parties (consumers, OEM's (Apple) and suppliers (Nvidia & AMD) somebody gets squeezed - always. If there are multiple suppliers I've never seen it be the case when it wasn't them who had to eat the thin margins. No exceptions.

 

[adildacoolset]

This one is a bit of a stretch, but I don't think Apple really cares about pros anymore.

These are the facts.

These are not only the facts. You're also throwing your own speculation and opinions.

 

[joeray]

Myth: Apple doesn't care about the pros...???

While I'm not associated with NSA, FBI, CIA or any other acronym, (I am a private criminal defense trial attorney), I feel many of my bar brothers on the law enforcement side would be lost without Mac Pro Computers. I've also been told that the FBI and CIA rely heavily on Mac Pro systems.

 

[AppleDroid]

If it's $1,999 I'll be thrilled. If it's $4,999 then I'm a sad panda. I'm happy fulltime video pros will get a mini-hulk but for me (Heavy Photoshop/Lightroom with some video thrown in) it would be way above my budget.

Sadly that leaves me with an iMac which means I have to get used to Windows again.

 

[qtx43]

If it's $1,999 I'll be thrilled. If it's $4,999 then I'm a sad panda. I'm happy fulltime video pros will get a mini-hulk but for me (Heavy Photoshop/Lightroom with some video thrown in) it would be way above my budget.

Sadly that leaves me with an iMac which means I have to get used to Windows again.

Just to keep the thread going ...I'd be thrilled with a $1,999 headless Mac with great graphics too. I could almost convince myself I need to get myself one for Christmas, depending on what's inside. I don't think it's likely, but it all depends on Apple's big picture strategy. They could build something at any price point if they want to.

 

[handsome pete]

While I'm not associated with NSA, FBI, CIA or any other acronym, (I am a private criminal defense trial attorney), I feel many of my bar brothers on the law enforcement side would be lost without Mac Pro Computers. I've also been told that the FBI and CIA rely heavily on Mac Pro systems.

Strange. I've never heard of any law enforcement (especially at the local level) use Mac Pros. Though if true, I hardly think they'd be "lost" without them.


Also, NSA, FBI, CIA aren't acronyms (sorry, a pet peeve of mine).