Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Putting new Mac Pro myths to rest
- Thread starter Cubemmal
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I think, regardless of all the technical debating there is - that the new Mac Pro is trying to pave the way of the future.. One where a very small device can still provide the requirements (storage capacities, speed, power use, costs) of the larger portion of the market yet still be 'satisfactory' for the power users if they choose to invest in it. The expansion seems to be pretty decent (RAM will probably go to 128GB, I'm sure Apple will provide a 1-2TB SSD soon enough with Samsung's new 3D vertical storage mechanisms and upcoming storage breakthroughs, and let's not forget ThunderBolt of course) for such a small device. I also think people aren't that keen on having massive workstations on their desk these days (that's most certainly why I bought a Mac Mini, but then realised I needed to then buy a PC for other stuff [guess I'm not ready]).
Each to their own, I do think this is a good first step forward to a changing future in prosumer computing.
Each to their own, I do think this is a good first step forward to a changing future in prosumer computing.
Actually, most would consider this to be more Ferrari than VW. The engine is the heart/soul of a car because it gives the car a certain driving characteristic. Car hobbyists do this often putting bigger engines in smaller cars. Just because it looks like a VW, does not make it a VW. If it has a Ferrari engine, then it'll drive more like a Ferrari (in a straight line anyway). In the corners, it will be neither VW-like or Ferrari-like because of the weight increase and the lack of sophisticated suspension system.
A V8 in an MX-5/Miata is no longer a Miata because it no longer drives like a Miata. The Miata's driving characteristics is defined by it having a light weight engine.
- Not for me. In that case the buy goes to Dell/HP (or a DIY).
- The no-brainer being Dell/HP? Cus at current price points the nMP would be WAY overpriced!
I look at it like this. I don't mind Apple cutting the machine in half, reducing costs in every area, and forcing those with the need, to pay the extra thru upgrades IF - Apple is going to pass that along to us in the form of a much lower sticker-price. But unless they are going to supply a 4-bay thunderbolt drive enclosure, a TB2 to PCIe (2 bay enclosure) a 2 or 4TB drive, and normalize their RAM prices - then even the current prices applied to the nMP would be pretty ridiculous!
Another way to put it is: I like all levels of the design concept of the nMP - IF THE PRICE IS NORMAL and not Apple's usual FU-Prices. Otherwise it's FU x 2 and that would be too much for me to deal with. They're already up the government's azz sticking it to their users (so that would actually be FU x 3) and I don't wish to be abused further.
No, a bit of frenchglish... English is my second language. I meant with more expensibility.
i know what you meant.. it's just that you asked a loaded question so i didn't have much of a chance to answer it
the more expensive bit? i guess the question is how much more expensive and we just don't know that yet.. if it's too expensive, i won't buy it.. i definitely don't need this computer at all costs.
the expense of external hard drive enclosures will not affect me in the same way as it's affecting a lot of people.. i'm personally interested in getting an 802.11ac hard drive which i imagine will cost more than thunderbolt only external.. that setup is optimum for me at this time because i can connect to it with any computer/device.. and seriously, i'm not telling anybody else how they should do things. this setup makes sense to me -- once the costs become more apparent, i'll be able to see if it's actually worth it from a cost perspective.. regardless, i do actually like the idea that any harddrive i have other than the boot drives in each computer/device will be equally accessible by everything.. instead of a bunch of drives moreorless locked down to a single computer.
i mean, even if i went to windows, i'd still seek a solution such as that.. this is nothing to do with fanboyism.. but it does seem as if the apple hardware/software would allow this to happen more easily with less hiccups.
regarding the 'less upgradable/customizable workstation'.. again, we don't know how upgradable it is.. you're claiming it's completely locked down with everything welded together.. meanwhile, i can literally see an easily accessible latch designed towards easy access by the user.. if it was so locked down, why can we open it up so easily? to change the ram? to marvel at the engineering? so we can easily stare directly at the gpu components that we won't be able to touch?
these are questions that will be answered soon enough so i'm not going to spend too much time making guesses at it but i'm equally not going to spend too much time complaining about how non-upgradable it is..
For those who are not convinced that there are differences between consumer GPUs and "pro" variants I would recommend this article
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-workstation-graphics-card,3493.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-workstation-graphics-card,3493.html
Marketing blitz???
The below definitions are from the Dictionary.app and seem pretty self explanatory.
Marketing = the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising.
Blitz = informal a sudden, energetic, and concerted effort, typically on a specific task: a major press blitz.
That must be it. There certainly hasn't been a marketing blitz under that definition. <shrug>
That SSD in the MP alone is going to probably cost around 400-600 bucks without question. FirePro cards? Those are not cheap and are professional cards. High end FirePro cards can easily pull a cool 1.5-2k a piece. Xeon chips? Depending on which one is in there, that can EASILY be another 500-1000, if not more. Some Xeon that are 8 cores go close to 1500+, sometimes more.
Marketing blitz???
He was referring to the Army of Admiring FanBois who showed up here after the announcement .
Several new members signed up just to bespeak their awe, some even copy & pasting phrases from Apple in their joyous adoration.
And a few folks haven't stopped posting gratuitous, gushing praise for Apple's foresight into the future of computing. No matter what.
One guy swore that 4 RAM slots was more than 8. Another claimed that a vote of 40 vs 20 was "evenly split". A third swears that 1 CPU socket is the magical number, 2 being just 1 too many.
So some people (OP for instance) believe that there couldn't possibly be so many sucked in by mere shiny web pages full of hyperbole. That there must be some PR department fueling the fervor.
Hard to say really, but that is what I believe the OP meant by "marketing blitz".
The below definitions are from the Dictionary.app and seem pretty self explanatory.
Marketing = the action or business of promoting and selling products or services, including market research and advertising.
Blitz = informal a sudden, energetic, and concerted effort, typically on a specific task: a major press blitz.
Ah... Thank you... I'm well aware of what the term means. Since apple has done no marketing to speak of, it obviously doesn't apply to the new Mac Pro.
Agreed. We're also seeing established members of the forum slip into the reality distortion field to a large degree. One is even saying that he's happy Apple's made a "disposable" computer as it simplifies things--or some such nonsense. There's another who said that Apple did everybody a favor by dropping internal drive bays.
I know on Reddit, there are established members that get approached regularly by interests paying them to post more on their point of view. There's no reason to think it's not happening here.
I know on Reddit, there are established members that get approached regularly by interests paying them to post more on their point of view. There's no reason to think it's not happening here.
Surprising that this comment generated so much discussion. Carefully crafted Apple marketing blitz ...
- Major spot at a major press conference
- Starts out with sub sonic booming "ta dah" and mysterious hints of what it looks like
- The actual size is delayed until late in presentation when they compare it to the present one
- Long rattling off of the technical specs, and they shows us the absolute top end model too
- Same goes for the Apple web page
- On some of the parts, calling them "FirePro" graphics when it's nothing of the sort (just FirePro consumer chips with an Apple stack on it (not AMD))
They did everything they could to convince us this was a powerful machine (meanwhile quiet about the fact that there will be no dual CPU), including making it look like something from Star Wars. That was no mistake.
I think the design intent of the team is clear. They want something small and quiet for the desk which has many advantages. For example, my MacPro Bluetooth connection sucks. I have to have a dongle that sits on the desk to replace it, otherwise my mouse lags. Same thing happens with my mini if it gets too far away, or the MBP. And so on ... how do you innovate the desktop? Turn it into something other than a desktop, follow other devices and go small.
As an aside, I work in a related industry, and I remember somebody telling me once "you know all we do every year is make last years device smaller". We started out with room sized machines, and now I'm working on a hand held version ...
Anyhow glad this all created some discussion. I firmly see a cheaper machine due to integration, reduction of expansion potential and BOM. Whether Apple will pass that to us remains to be seen of course. Putting on my marketing hat, I think it would be brilliant that, after convincing us all this is an expensive high end machine, they come out with "and it's only $1999". That would blow our socks off and they'd sell them like crazy.
If they start them at $2499, or worse $2999 then I believe they've created a DOA product that will die off in a few years, because surely that won't be volumes that Apple will want to keep supporting.
Last edited:
how much apple stuff do you own again?
do you care to elaborate a little more on this 'koolaid' you keep raving about?.. because it seems as if you've OD'd on the stuff (over denial_ed)
There were people everywhere saying "I wish Apple would give us some kind of preview of a new Mac Pro if for no other reason to prove there will really be one". So that's what they did and did anyone expect them to soft-sell the thing so much that few would want it?
This seems overly dramatic. With Xeons it depends on what Xeon. You have some overlap with the "E" suffix i7s, so your practical Xeon options go as low as $300. With gpus, we really have no idea. Firepros are based on the same chips. They have much higher markups, but Apple's implementations have sometimes been non-standard types. It could be the name licensed out more than anything. People get hung up on the amount of video ram in their "up to" model, yet even that spec was also used in a Radeon card. The point is not to dream up how expensive something could be. It's likely to have a range of configurations. All that really matters is what it costs specced the way you need it. The same goes for that SSD nonsense. You really must have missed the number of times they said "up to" when the machine was previewed.
As an Amazon Associate, MacRumors earns a commission from qualifying purchases made through links in this post.
Blitz?
'a' meaning singluar. Blitz... a singular action? Not really.
It is a developer's conference which if missing the relevelancy of that point probably missing a huge part of the message.
You are familiar with the "one more thing" dramatic reveal Jobs routinely did on stage? The large dinosaur expectations are quite deliberate to drive up contrast in the dramatic reveal (in this specific case a reduction in size). Again blitz? Hardly. Dramatic presentation. Go see a quality magic act or read a book by a quality mystery writer or watch an old episode of 'Columbo'.
Chuckle. First, they didn't show most of the line up. So they still have a dramatic reveal to do when they roll the product out. Standard Apple formula.
The "monster" spec list is more driving the justification they need to do that this machine is still "Mac Pro" class and deserving of the name. The old single CPU versus this new Mac Pro. It is a step up in many respects. There is a huge amount of computational performance still there even though the dramatically adjusted the sides. Does that make the storage capacity and dual CPU folks happy? No. But still in the same general class; especially relative to the other Mac alternatives.
The website is just dramatic reveal in a series of pictures with a bit more information. Again a single instance is hardly a blitz.
If the new cards are the electronic equivalent in a slightly different board instantiation and are qualified/tested by AMD to run the same drivers the distinction here is worthless in terms of operating user functionality.
Unless Apple does something radically different here when it comes to BootCamp drivers the users are going to get FirePro drivers in Windows world. There are no special drivers in Mac OS X world because... surprise... there never were any before and there aren't going to be any now. There is no blitz on that aspect at all.
When the "consumer" FirePro start showing up with more than 4GB of VRAM you will lets up know right?
As if only a dual CPU makes a machine powerful.
Imagine that... Apple wants to make a machine differentiated from the competitors. Why on Earth would they want to do that? That's over the top marketing? *cough*
Actually, the Wifi and Bluetooth performance of this new machine is very unclear. Where they put the antennas is somewhat fuzzy. Placement is same root cause issue of why current Mac Pro isn't particularly good at this in terms of range.
The 27" iMac is small ?
The current Mac Pro technically wasn't targeted at the desktop. For more designed to sit on the floor than on top of a desk. This new one is primarily designed to sit on top of desk. Targeting the actual desktop for placement is hardly innovation for a desktop machine.
Co-locating with the same location for most Thundebolt external devices is the driver of the standard location. That isn't particularly innovative that is just going to where the TB devices already are and most will be.
As if the ungrounded mythbusting wasn't designed generate yet another thread to recycle FUD in.
Expansion actually generally means getting larger. Slot filling (with no change in physical volume ) and expansion (growing bigger ) are on two different dimensions. Again, gobs of smoke and heat are going to be generated as long as Apple uses the normal sense of the word and others use the indirect colloquial sense.
In terms of cheaper, the number of items in the BOM don't really as much as the prices of the items in the BOM. Fewer more expensive items can easily lead to the same price.
No. Far more likely that having gone to check the retail prices on the FirePro equivalent cards, Apple delivering dual FirePro at the old Mac Pro prices will be "amazing". If want to look thin, go stand next to the "Fat Lady" at the side show. Apple "only" taking 40-60% margins versus the retail Firepros 110+% margins will look like a bargin.
FirePro is being thrown out there to set pricing expectations higher, not lower.
A rather poor marketing hat because it is where the customers are going and value delivered into where they are going that drives success. $2999 is a huge stretch for entry level but that is where the core of the existing Mac Pro market lay for last several years. The entry-high single Mac Pro range has been $2499-3,599 for a long time.
The middle of the Mac Pro market and the folks at the entry fridge are two substantially different subgroups. The highly price sensitive entry folks are either going iMac, mini, or out of the Mac market over time. Commoditization is what they primarily care about and Apple isn't likely to follow them there.
Apple is targeting a smaller market with this new Mac Pro. So year-over-year numbers will likely be down a bit because comparing Apples-to-Oranges. It is a subset of the old market that they are targeting with this new machine. Long term success more primarily hinges upon whether this subset grows and passes the older broader net they were casting. They've have probably set their expectations that being smaller for a while is acceptable.
Regardless, I made my point. Apple is using some pricey stuff in there new Mac Pro, but at the same we are all speculating here till the machine itself comes out.
As an Amazon Associate, MacRumors earns a commission from qualifying purchases made through links in this post.
Aside from dual gpus, everything has a moderately priced alternative. For example what makes you think they couldn't use a 256GB ssd in the base model? 256GB ssd + E5-1620 v2 + dual low end gpus (Apple retailed 5770s at $250 each) + 8GB ram + 3 thunderbolt chips at say $10 each. Keep in mind if you're hooking up displayport displays to a thunderbolt port, you use a mini displayport to mini or "normal" displayport cable, not a thunderbolt cable. The expensive cable thing doesn't apply to the same degree there. Cut down to base model specs, it wouldn't be terribly expensive to build. It's a matter of how Apple chooses to price it.
I said it before and I'll say it again - it's all marketing hype, the premise of "special support" that 3rd party vendors would break their back making their software compatible and 100% crash free on the Pro lines of the cards.
The sad truth is that these are the same chips coming from the same factory line, binned differently based on whether they pass some higher standard of QE or not.
They always shoot for all the cores enabled (there's no other way, it makes no sense to make silicon with disabled cores) and then whatever fails testing gets dropped into consumer bin.
----------
Oh I almost forgot...someone was saying about OP speculating on hardware config of the trash can mac pro as if we did not know what's in side it.
Of course we know what's inside.
Apple is not using some wondrous chips made in a foundry on Mars and then shipping them to Earth via a magical rainbow shuttle, although the marketing machine at Apple does continue to pass everything through a reality distortion field to which everyone seems to be more and more susceptible.
Trash Can will use a C60x chipset from Intel, one of the Xeon E5 v2 series CPUs and consumer grade AMD 7970 chips for graphics. The SSD and memory will come from Samsung like the rest of the Apple hardware and that's about it.
Coupled with the above mentioned reality distortion field, thousands of people will be suckered into buying it, because it's Apple "magic".
This is actually a better site about Workstation VS consumer graphic cards. Most notably AMD Senior Marketing Manager Alexis Mather.
http://icrontic.com/article/the-real-difference-between-workstation-and-desktop-gpus
An interesting note, according to the Alexis, the GPU's are not exactly the same or interchangeable.
Last edited:
We already know a large amount about this, in a round about way. For example, we know that Apple has (once again) changed the custom SSD connector that they use (like the one they use in the retina portable laptops), meaning they are the only company that stock them (there was also some special connection in addition which would make it hard for other companies to manufacture it) and can charge a fair amount. The memory is serviceable and upgradable (generic DIMMs) so that's fine. GPUs and CPUs are probably soldered on I would say based off the general movement Apple is taking (consumerism, if it's broke replace it as it's quicker/easier) and the rest is pretty much obvious. I do think it will be easy enough to "open up" and take a peek around.