you really think that?
"one of my gpus broke.. oh well, i'll just pay $4000 to fix it"
let's just say i really hope that's not the case.. (as in- i wouldn't buy it in the first place under those circumstances.. no way)
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Putting new Mac Pro myths to rest
- Thread starter Cubemmal
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you really think that?
"one of my gpus broke.. oh well, i'll just pay $4000 to fix it"
let's just say i really hope that's not the case.. (as in- i wouldn't buy it in the first place under those circumstances.. no way)
Not so much software as firmware/hardware in the GPU rather than hardware support in the memory. It is general VRAM with checksum bits stored. But there are no 'cores' running the error correction.
All goes to some of the confusion that is being thrown out as to being the "same". They are the same down the active set of transistors level. The central core architecture is shared across "mainstream" and "pro" units but the un-core (non computational units ) parts are different. Largely one die with sub-components flipped on/off (e.g. Core i7 49xx vs E5 1600 v2 ), but doesn't make them the same in memory functionality.
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If there is a major failure on one of the current PCI-e standard slot boards... the subcomponents are slotted for easy end user replacement? No. This really isn't new.
So is everyone else moving to SATA Express relative to what has been on the market for last couple of years.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6294/breaking-the-sata-barrier-sata-express-and-sff8639-connectors ( and the " new NGFF card form factor" mentioned there). Apple's is likely not 100% M.2 ( one of the NGFF variants most consumer models will pick up. ), but won't be that far off. Sometimes just can wait for standards to finish.
Current GPU cards have easily swapped GPU chips on them? But this is substantively different than the iMac where the GPU is soldered to the central motherboard. For appearances the GPU is effectively on a daughter-card (similar to how the CPU and RAM are on one in the current Mac Pro. )
Probably not. The iMac doesn't so why would the Mac Pro. The CPU doesn't come in a package from Intel that is conducive to soldering. A custom attachment to couple it to the centralized heat solution? Probably.
That is how the computer industry is moving. Nobody comes out to replace a tube or twiddle with a single discrete chip package anymore. The whole card is popped out and replaced. That happens on $10M computers too. It really has little to do with consumerism and far more to do with the extremely high levels of integration the new products have.
Why would the CPU and GPU be soldered on? What do you base this assumption on considering that the CPU and GPU are replaceable on an iMac? (CPU is socketed and the GPU is on a standard MXM daughterboard - you can take the 2012 GPU and put it into a 2011 iMac - I recall a thread where this has been done)
It seems to me that the Mac Pro uses a similar design. I wish people would stop posting these misconceptions.
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Wow, we're counting the number of Apple products we own in order to establish some sort of credibility? Definitely written by a true, card carrying fanboy.
Many of these threads remind me of: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
... well? (re my title line): wikipage for that
i.e.: why all this hoo-hah about how it might possibly suit anybody else??? The only evaluation relevant to me is how it performs MY task. SO, when it comes out I will do the only practical thing: I will rent one, for a few days or a week, and evaluate its performance. (If this seems strange to you, I say: well, if you are a professional, then that few hundred dollars is just another cost of doing business intelligently.)
If it works well for me, I may get one (though at the moment I'm well served by a 4,1 and a GTX 570, I will be interested....)
... well? (re my title line): wikipage for that
i.e.: why all this hoo-hah about how it might possibly suit anybody else??? The only evaluation relevant to me is how it performs MY task. SO, when it comes out I will do the only practical thing: I will rent one, for a few days or a week, and evaluate its performance. (If this seems strange to you, I say: well, if you are a professional, then that few hundred dollars is just another cost of doing business intelligently.)
If it works well for me, I may get one (though at the moment I'm well served by a 4,1 and a GTX 570, I will be interested....)
I'm with you; that's me. Although I do kinda like the idea of being Ronin, I'm not quite "Lone Wolf and Cub"...! (No Zatoichi either.)
Never having been a sports fan until a few years ago, when a family friend bought a football <"soccer"> team, I appreciate that. Movement when off the ball can be crucial, indeed game-changing!
On Nvidia, ECC is handled by one or two memory chips on the board, out of the total sum of memory chips, which is sometimes 10 or so.
I really believe that all the "magic" is happening in the drivers and not in the hardware. Even if that other article from 2009 is correct today (2013), I think every company is looking to mainstream their manufacturing processes which lowers the cost and increases profit.
One way of doing that is not to have to fabricate 10 different parts but just one. Then they can perform minor alterations on the chip itself (laser cut traces, fuses, etc) to disable cores, processors or whatever, which is much cheaper.
I don't know why they bother carrying cards anymore.
Between the Pom Poms, MiniSkirt, and Lycra top with the Apple Logo emblazoned across the front, little chance they could be mistaken for Microsoft fans.
Actually most of these threads are enumerations of this wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
For instance the "Availability heuristic". The above is fine scoped to making an individual buy. It is likely highly inaccurate if turned into a sweeping generalization and declared an overall market predictor.
Given that I don't believe the price to buy the entire Mac Pro will be $4k (perhaps a fully kitted out one might break that price range, but the stock definitely won't), I also consider the price for Apple to repair the machine for you to be considerably less...
Of course, I hope that too.. But who will make the GPU replacement? Only Apple... I'm not so sure you will be able to go out and buy these cards
Certainly - but much like the already-in-place Apple laptop variants (where 3rd party vendors had to tailor make once again), I think this will be a similar scenario (also not sure what licensing issues there are [never checked]?).
Rhetorics :
: No, they do not - but I meant the package as a whole. For scenarios where the GPU is damaged it would require the whole card to be replaced as you can't simply pull off the GPU chip (as you said). From the vague things we've seen, yes it's likely to be a daughter card custom made by Apple. Therefore you'll have to buy from Apple/have them replace it.. Not cheap!Quite right, but are we right in comparing the iMac to this product? I'll assume your comparisons are based on form factor and not on a consumeristic basis. But thinking about it a little, you're probably right - the centralised heat solution would be like that.
For sure - but there's a line. Apple has no quick-fix for a power button issue on any of their devices, yet it's such a small component. Depends on the genius, but they chop and change between replacing the button, or simply giving you a new machine! The same happens in the server environments too (not so much with interchangeable/redundant parts like PSUs, RAM, HDDs, etc but with other more niche components). Which is cheaper, I'm really not sure.. Also - you've dealt with $10M machines?
To their respective daughter cards - it can make sense. Or are you so closed minded that you're not open to natural thought process and logistics? If Apple will offer daughter cards to replace items, then it may be easier to go down that route.
And yes, you can replace the GPU quite easily with a standard MXM GPU replacement in the iMac - the Mac Pro highly won't use a standard board though.
Same, same but different. I wish you'd be nicer - but hey I guess we both won't win eh?
Lol, you are the myth maker.
GPU Vendors write their drivers themselves, it takes huge amount of work to write and maintain graphics drivers, and only their vendors can do it.
Also you can check copyright in nvidia and amd drivers and...surprise, authors is nvidia and and.
also fire pro cards usually has dcc memory.
Okay, here you go. The image that popped into my mind within the first 500ms of my first exposure to the photo of the inside of the nMP:But who will make the GPU replacement? Only Apple... I'm not so sure you will be able to go out and buy these cards
- take a stock FirePro xxxx whatever model they choose ...
- remove the bracket and case.
- remove the fans.
- clamp it in a custom vise, horizontally.
- with a fast, thin diamond-toothed bandsaw, cut away anything you can, including the edge connector. deburr.
- polish the traces that led to the edge connector. if coated with varnish or expoxy or such, debride that first.
- slip that trace-edge into a custom edge connector on the chassis; this can be ultra-slim (the kind of engineering you see when you take your MBP apart) because it's not going to be clumsily handled by the user again and again.
... how much more than that did they have to do?
<< I know this is fantasy; those boards iirc look smaller than what you could get by doing that and they probably had to re-trace and etch (or whatever) new boards. But that could have been part of the original inspiration! It's not too far off... >>
Could you do me favour Tess and quote me the DELL & HP machines series numbers?
I am interested in the alternative machines that people are looking at
I was going down the MP 5,1 route, my first MP, until they removed them from the EU market. I have held over for a year now and struggled on with iMac waiting for developments in the market. I do Autodesk product work mainly and some sequence video work.
My needs are along the line of:
12 core
64gb
SSD boot drive 500gb
10k HD's
At least 4GB Vid cards
If anybody else has a hit list of machines they are looking it would be nice to know?
Yes, the GPU chip itself has to be soldered somewhere - whether that is a graphics card or a "daughter board" is a minor point.
The fact that the daughter boards will not be easily upgradeable/replaceable due to the fact that we aren't likely to see aftermarket solutions is a different issue that is worth discussing. But simply crying, "OMG, the CPU and GPU is soldered on," is not correct, since the daughter boards can be removed.
Close minded? Please keep the insults to yourself. Play the ball and not the man. Thanks.
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Look at their respective websites. You are looking for the Dell Precision workstations.
HP
http://h41111.www4.hp.com/new_workstations/uk/en/index.html#.UgszQGRgYnU
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I can't say it's an incredibly detailed picture (nor both sides), but perhaps you're right. However, I wonder what the chances are that they will use a solution such as this as opposed to designing/manufacturing their own.
I think the point that's more important here, as opposed to semantics, should rather be if we will be forced to purchase from Apple (a completely custom solution) or if 3rd party vendors can manufacture solutions (or already available parts). That will probably play a role in the purchasing habits of people, especially since prosumers are more attuned to this type of attitude and research.
A lot of machines can meet your needs - pretty much anything released in the past 2 or maybe 3 years. I was commenting in a general if/then format though and wasn't considering specific models. If you want specifics go to those sites and configure a few of their current models. There's:
Plus the DIY route which has it's advantages.
Basically I was just saying that if Apple doesn't normalize their prices I'm out. There is a slim chance that they will do so too. So there is some hope - even slim. With DIY's now able to run OS X the playing field has been made more flat and IMO Apple should respond accordingly by normalizing their prices to overall system spec. But this is just me. I'm no longer pulling down $30K a month from compute related work. Those who are still keeping busy may feel entirely different - and I can appreciate that as well - it's just not me.
BTW, you might consider that 12 cores at 2.3 to 2.6 GHz is essentially the same performance level as 6 cores overclocked to 4.5GHz. And actually the faster fewer cores will feel considerably faster than the system with more cores most of the time. At about 4.5 to 4.7GHz you're still within the range of an air-cooled system. At 4.8 to much over 5GHz is usually when water cooling becomes a requirement. And these days overclocking is pretty stable - unlike it was 6 to 8 years ago. Some motherboards are designed with overclocking in mind nowadaze.
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Interesting, but irrelevant in any case. Do you think Apple will pass on say $1,000 in graphics card licensing fees on every Mac Pro to AMD? Is NOT going to happen, that is ludicrous. Apple gets any graphics code for free and negotiates an aggressive hardware cost.
Besides I'm sure the drivers are a collaboration, Apple has many predilections (such as for AirPlay) that must be added.
That opens up a whole different discussion as to how important easy upgradeability actually is. Various polls have been run on this forum, but a 348 user sample is not very representative, nor can it be used for making any conclusions.
A lot of people here believe that "no upgradeability = not a workstation for professionals". The reality of the situation is that it is more like "no upgradeability = not a workstation for me".
If you are planning to buy a Mac Pro as a prosumer or a hobbyist, then yes, I can understand the desire to extend the life of the machine and your investment by changing the graphics card and so forth.
As a business owner, I do not. The cost of the workstation is an expense to my company and reduces my tax. Then for every year of use my accountant depreciates the value of the machine and I save even more tax. If the machine has not paid for itself within a time period, then I did not need to buy. As a business owner, I also cannot see the benefits of trying to keep a machine for longer than necessary and trying to upgrade machines out of the warranty period. I simply purchase new machines.
Whether other people will see the new Mac Pro in this same way and whether it will be a success, I cannot say. But there must have been business reasons for the changes. I am sure it was not just to upset 215 Mac Pro sub-forum readers on Macrumors.com
Well stated. Personally i believe apple is trying to bring the mac pro to consumers. Many consumers look at the mac pro and say "It's too big and expensive, but it looks cool."
Pro users, just like education and the enterprise which have both been slowly killed off by the loss of XServe, advanced server / management features, etc.., are a niche market. Apple is trying to appeal to home users, and i feel this mac pro does a better job for that purpose (if the price is right).
For all we know, GPU's from future models may swap into older models. Upgradeability is uncertain until we have one in our hands.
I personally hope Apple makes a deal with gigabyte to make expensive mac motherboards to DIY people. They would be normal high end motherboards the normal PC buyers would buy also, but they would also be apple certified to run OS X. It will probably never happen, but a man can hope right?
yup.
Yeah, I've been digging around in the Apple official statement archives recently to try and get a better understanding of what Apple believes they are doing with this new design and the feeling I get about such a board is: Absolutely not - no frigging way!
One of the very first things Steve did when he came back was to cancel all third party licensing agreements - flat out - boom! And after that for the next 3 to 5 years they aggressively prosecuted any visible violators. So unless Cook is planning a mutiny or something I'd say the chances are sub-zero.
A lot of machines can meet your needs - pretty much anything released in the past 2 or maybe 3 years. I was commenting in a general if/then format though and wasn't considering specific models. If you want specifics go to those sites and configure a few of their current models. There's:
Plus the DIY route which has it's advantages.
Basically I was just saying that if Apple doesn't normalize their prices I'm out. There is a slim chance that they will do so too. So there is some hope - even slim. With DIY's now able to run OS X the playing field has been made more flat and IMO Apple should respond accordingly by normalizing their prices to overall system spec. But this is just me. I'm no longer pulling down $30K a month from compute related work. Those who are still keeping busy may feel entirely different - and I can appreciate that as well - it's just not me.
BTW, you might consider that 12 cores at 2.3 to 2.6 GHz is essentially the same performance level as 6 cores overclocked to 4.5GHz. And actually the faster fewer cores will feel considerably faster than the system with more cores most of the time. At about 4.5 to 4.7GHz you're still within the range of an air-cooled system. At 4.8 to much over 5GHz is usually when water cooling becomes a requirement. And these days overclocking is pretty stable - unlike it was 6 to 8 years ago. Some motherboards are designed with overclocking in mind nowadaze.
Thanks for the advice!
Just had a look at a T3600 on the Dell site and for a 8 core 2.4 - 64gb of 1600mhz ECC RAM, a 512 SSD with Dual Firepro 2gb W5000 - price is about £4900 about $7600.
RAM and SSD aren't up to quoted nMP 768gb 1800mhz.
Do you think this will still be below the price of a comparable nMP?
Both the current iMac ( actually for the last several years) and the current/future Mac Pro has "desktop" socket CPU packages with pins. The mobile CPU and GPU packages (including the iMac GPU ) used in the rest of the Mac line up have BGA packages. If talking about whether soldered or not, then this is a major factor.
If future Xeon E5 come in BGA then Apple would solder them as that is the chip packaging that is conducive to that approach. For E5 v2 and for all appearances v3 (Haswell, with an electrical variant on socket 2011 ) and v4 (Broadwell; with same variant since this class CPU keeps same for entire tick/tock cycle). is not BGA.
Are users likely to have to do substantive system dis-assembly to get to the CPU socket? Yes. This isn't going to be F1 pit stop speed component changes.
Previous years. The 2012 models don't have MXM modules.
21" iMac
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iMac+Intel+21.5-Inch+EMC+2544+Teardown/11936/3
[ Step 20 clearly showing the CPU socket. Step 22 the GPU mounted to the board. ]
27" iMac
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1514470/
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=16503295&mxm#post16503295
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/12/autopsy-shows-27-imac-is-positively-austere-on-the-inside/
Extreme high probability. That is what all the pictures show.
From Apple's current page without the disco animation http://www.apple.com/mac-pro/
There is no connector along the 'long' edges of the card. ( it is likely on the short, unseen, edge or somewhere extremely odd if not). The cards are nearly identical so this view is looking at both top and bottom long edges and CPU/GPU/GPU are arranged in triangle like fashion ( common right angle edges at the bottom )
There is a SSD mounted to the back (or a placeholder for such a spot on the one where it isn't physically present). That has ramification to the card's edges or PCI-e switching on-board the card. There are no standard (desktop or mobile ) GPU cards with PCI-e SSD slots.
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And where is the PCIe SSD slot on the back of these?
The notion that these are not highly customized boards is way off. Started from same reference design and have mostly the same logical block functionality layout ? Sure. But Apple ( or subcontractor) probably had to put in alot of work and AMD likely would have to run driver validation on these new boards. ( The latter shouldn't be too hard if mainly just customizing thermals and placement and not services/functionality provided by the card. )
How this is mounted/coupled to the central thermal core is going to be key. I doubt starting with a generic physical placement card where the thermals are adapted to it is going to work well with that.