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I'll disagree that the 16gb will be pressed in the next 2-3 years (even with the AI "stuff")
I agree with this. I bet it takes a loooooong time for normal/casual/most users to find 16GB to not be enough.

Windows is not as good as Macs at RAM and my Surface Pro 9 with 8GB RAM is speedy and performant for normal everyday stuff—including photo editing with Affinity Photo and the like.

It’s only the people who spend every day looking at that RAM thingie (PRESSURE!!! YELLOW!!!!!) and people editing 4k video, compiling large stuff, and working with huge datasets, etc., that need all this RAM.
 
As I said and repeat, ASSUMING that we get to a point where we CANT turn off AI, it would explain why Apple is now GIVING 16 GB for free.

Apple is notorious, this post and the many replies confirm this, of fleecing their loyal customers, so this simply makes no sense for them to suddenly start selling all of their Macs with 16 GB.

I personally hope to be straight up wrong, but cmon, stop being so naive.

About memory usage, for a while now, all modern operating system use all free memory, since its a waste not using it and relaying in SSD swap or access so ideally, RAM should always shown as being completely used.
 
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I agree with this. I bet it takes a loooooong time for normal/casual/most users to find 16GB to not be enough.

Windows is not as good as Macs at RAM and my Surface Pro 9 with 8GB RAM is speedy and performant for normal everyday stuff—including photo editing with Affinity Photo and the like.

It’s only the people who spend every day looking at that RAM thingie (PRESSURE!!! YELLOW!!!!!) and people editing 4k video, compiling large stuff, and working with huge datasets, etc., that need all this RAM.
I only upgraded my 2012 MacBook Air because a decade old i7 was starting to struggle to run AutoCAD. Also the Bluetooth was starting to get a bit unreliable. I was suffering no limitations from my 8GB of RAM.


As I said and repeat, ASSUMING that we get to a point where we CANT turn off AI, it would explain why Apple is now GIVING 16 GB for free.

Apple is notorious, this post and the many replies confirm this, of fleecing their loyal customers, so this simply makes no sense for them to suddenly start selling all of their Macs with 16 GB.

I personally hope to be straight up wrong, but cmon, stop being so naive.

About memory usage, for a while now, all modern operating system use all free memory, since its a waste not using it and relaying in SSD swap or access so ideally, RAM should always shown as being completely used.
Pointing out that the RAM is only used by Apple Intelligence while actually using the functions, and therefore even IF Apple do decide to take away the ability to disable Apple Intelligence, the simple act of not using it means it has no impact on RAM usage.
 
As I said and repeat, ASSUMING that we get to a point where we CANT turn off AI, it would explain why Apple is now GIVING 16 GB for free.

Apple is notorious, this post and the many replies confirm this, of fleecing their loyal customers, so this simply makes no sense for them to suddenly start selling all of their Macs with 16 GB.

I personally hope to be straight up wrong, but cmon, stop being so naive.

About memory usage, for a while now, all modern operating system use all free memory, since its a waste not using it and relaying in SSD swap or access so ideally, RAM should always shown as being completely used.

Have you actually been a long time apple user? 2gb, 4gb, 8gb, and now 16gb will be useable, as they always have been, for years to come. The same way iPhones have always been able to get away with less RAM than their counterpart androids, Macs have always been the same.
 
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Have you actually been a long time apple user? 2gb, 4gb, 8gb, and now 16gb will be useable, as they always have been, for years to come. The same way iPhones have always been able to get away with less RAM than their counterpart androids, Macs have always been the same.
I have been an Apple customer since the Apple ][ days.

Heck, i actually worked for Apple in the 90’s.
 
As I said and repeat, ASSUMING that we get to a point where we CANT turn off AI, it would explain why Apple is now GIVING 16 GB for free.

Apple is notorious, this post and the many replies confirm this, of fleecing their loyal customers, so this simply makes no sense for them to suddenly start selling all of their Macs with 16 GB.

I personally hope to be straight up wrong, but cmon, stop being so naive.

About memory usage, for a while now, all modern operating system use all free memory, since its a waste not using it and relaying in SSD swap or access so ideally, RAM should always shown as being completely used.
Good points! Apple has presented the buyer a bite of a potent apple (the M4), while at the same time upping the RAM to 16 GB. Most would salivate over the M4 performance while at the same time being conflicted about the amount of RAM and internal storage. All one has to do is to notice the ambivalence is to read all the questions about the RAM and internal storage being asked in this and other forums... to understand that Apple is again fleecing the loyal customers.

I see the M4 Mac as follows: a powerful and expensive sports car, and just enough gasoline in the tank to get you to a gas station. Who would not be impressed by the powerful engine?

If it wasn't for the quality of Mac OS-X, I would have left the Mac a couple of years after the 2019 27" 5K iMac I am still using. The new M4 iMac with the 24" 5K display, 16GB RAM, and 256GB SSD is not interesting to me at all. Two or three years later I would be stuck with another appliance I can't upgrade, and would have to trade it again if tempted to take a bite of the newest and shiny apple.
 
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I have been an Apple customer since the Apple ][ days.

Heck, i actually worked for Apple in the 90’s.

Then I feel like you would know the RAM isn’t going to be an issue for these next generation of computers. Obviously everyone has a different use case, but I’m talking base user with the base 16gb config.
 
I bought my 2020 M1 mini with 16GB of memory. I've been keeping an eye on memory pressure all long (iStat Menus), turns out 16GB was a waste of money.
It does not mean that 16GB RAM was a waste of money depending on what you are using your 2020 Mini for. The recommendations for RAM for 2024-2025 (for most buyers) is around 16GB. This includes, 16-32GB for some gamers.

If I were to buy the base M4 Mini, I would still have a problem with the 256GB SSD. This means (to me) that I would have to move the Home Folder and most apps to an external SSD, which is a lot cheaper to buy the optional Apple RAM and SSD.

Most discussions about RAM and internal storage relating to the M4 Mac, including the Mini, are about RAM and internal storage. In my individual case, I would pay the exorbitant cost of Apple RAM upped to 32GB (minimum), keep the 256GB SSD, and buy one of the top of the line enclosures with a 2TB SSD...at a cost of $200.00.

 
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I bought my 2020 M1 mini with 16GB of memory. I've been keeping an eye on memory pressure all long (iStat Menus), turns out 16GB was a waste of money.
I would say that if you plan on keeping it for years to come then it wasn't a waste...But yes, you have hit upon my point exactly.
 
Most discussions about RAM and internal storage relating to the M4 Mac, including the Mini, are about RAM and internal storage. In my individual case, I would pay the exorbitant cost of Apple RAM upped to 32GB (minimum), keep the 256GB SSD, and buy one of the top of the line enclosures with a 2TB SSD...at a cost of $200.00.

I agree with you on the external SSD solution, that's my approach, too. I will not, however, spend money on up-speccing beyond 16GB of RAM purely out of fear it may one day not be enough. Unless of course, I need more than 16GB now, which I clearly don't.
 
I agree with you on the external SSD solution, that's my approach, too. I will not, however, spend money on up-speccing beyond 16GB of RAM purely out of fear it may one day not be enough. Unless of course, I need more than 16GB now, which I clearly don't.

Such a good point. That is like someone paying for 1TB on their iPhone, upgrades every year, but doesn't even use 256GB. "But I might use 1TB".

If you are buying a $499 (education discount) mini, it is even less of a decision than buying an iPhone because the cost to entry is so much lower.
 
I bought my 2020 M1 mini with 16GB of memory. I've been keeping an eye on memory pressure all long (iStat Menus), turns out 16GB was a waste of money.
That's like "I wasted my money on the more expensive boots because they're not leaking yet!"

...or if you did indeed waste your money, that's Apple's pricing policy working as intended. Which is really what people are complaining about.

If memory pressure stays green that just means that you have enough RAM. Once it goes into yellow or orange, that suggests that the RAM is starting to get full, the system is using swap more frequently and you might benefit from more. You could try messing around and creating an 8GB RAM disk or something to see what the memory pressure would be on an 8GB machine. Otherwise, maybe you'd have been fine with 8GB, maybe not.

That's the problem, it's almost impossible for most people to predict whether they're going to need more RAM or not. If the RAM were upgradeable after purchase you could start off low and expand if necessary. If the BTO upgrade cost a more realistic $50-per-8GB rather than $200-per-8GB then you wouldn't have to agonize about over-speccing a bit. There's no justification for such a modest amount of extra ram RAM to account for 25% of the price of the machine.

Going to 16GB as the base spec is a great help, but they stuck on 8GB for so long that its already behind the curve. I suspect that the effect on Apple's costs is insignificant once you take into account economies of scale (no need to buy in 4GB chips) and logistics (with the M4s added capacity they'd have needed to make 4 different flavours of M4 packages - 8 as well as 16, 24 and 32GB - rather than the previous 3 - 8, 16, 24)

If I were to buy the base M4 Mini, I would still have a problem with the 256GB SSD. This means (to me) that I would have to move the Home Folder and most apps to an external SSD, which is a lot cheaper to buy the optional Apple RAM and SSD.
Sure, that's the solution for the moment - but it shouldn't be necessary. Some people will always need external storage for their documents/projects/media library/backup, and can choose between USB, Thunderbolt, NAS or cloud storage as appropriate - but the internal SSD with the fastest access should be big enough for the OS, temporary storage, applications & their libraries and plenty of free space to keep the SSD running smoothly, even under frequent writing from swap and temporary storage. 256GB is too small for that once you install a couple of pro apps or games... and using external storage to install apps pretty much rules out wireless NAS or cloud storage which would avoid needing a second box tethered by a cable.

As with 16GB RAM, 512GB or 1TB is simply not something that should cost hundreds of bucks extra in 2024.
 
I bought my 2020 M1 mini with 16GB of memory. I've been keeping an eye on memory pressure all long (iStat Menus), turns out 16GB was a waste of money.
Well, at least you can stop watching the memory pressure now and just let it be.

Your 16GB purchase might not be a waste after all if the AI stuff works and you use it a little bit and you keep your M1 until it runs out of software support. You might have saved yourself an upgrade cycle. I'm now upgrading an i5 mini to the M4 and would not have upgraded if I have your M1.

Still too early to tell if the AI hype is real in my opinion. I get the text based, email checking, work and resume stuff, but let me talk to a customer support robot that isn't horrible or let me hear some stories about Siri being so much better, then maybe. And custom will be awesome, for about 5 minutes.

And companies, please teach your AI to understand "Let me talk to a human, you stupid **** robot." I have never, ever, made a phone call to talk to a robot.
 
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I suspect that the effect on Apple's costs is insignificant once you take into account economies of scale (no need to buy in 4GB chips)
You know, it just occurred to me that perhaps the reason for this MIGHT be that somehow it was cheaper for apple to move to 16GB than sticking to 8. Assuming AGAIN that I’m completely wrong about the AI part.
Sure, that's the solution for the moment - but it shouldn't be necessary.
Exactly.
but the internal SSD with the fastest access should be big enough for the OS
Not to mention, you will miss some functionality like Filevault, AI (if used) and a bunch of others already mentioned before because the OS only implement them on the internal drive.

Lastly, 1 million % agreed on the upgrade prices, especially ram, since its simply impossible for us to upgrade after the fact.
 
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You know, it just occurred to me that perhaps the reason for this MIGHT be that somehow it was cheaper for apple to move to 16GB than sticking to 8. Assuming AGAIN that I’m completely wrong about the AI part.
Well, yes, at some stage as RAM capacities increase across the industry, the latest RAM technologies may only appear in larger capacity dies - or smaller ones will become an expensive niche product. It's possible that that could already have happened with LPDDR5x - Microsoft specifying 16GB for CopPilot+ PCs will have had an effect on demand.

We already have the rumours of 8GB iPad Pros having knobbled 12GB chips...

The AI thing is probably part of the equation - but I suspect the move to 16GB came about because of multiple upward pressures on base RAM, including the fact that we're well past the point where price-per-GB should have halved since the original move from 4 to 8GB.
 
using external storage to install apps pretty much rules out wireless NAS or cloud storage which would avoid needing a second box tethered by a cable.

Yes, it will have to be tethered Thunderbolt or USB4 SSD storage. But that's not a problem with a desktop computer.

As with 16GB RAM, 512GB or 1TB is simply not something that should cost hundreds of bucks extra in 2024.

As long as people keep buying or recommending these upgrades this isn't going to change ;)
 
That's like "I wasted my money on the more expensive boots because they're not leaking yet!"

...or if you did indeed waste your money, that's Apple's pricing policy working as intended. Which is really what people are complaining about.

If memory pressure stays green that just means that you have enough RAM. Once it goes into yellow or orange, that suggests that the RAM is starting to get full, the system is using swap more frequently and you might benefit from more. You could try messing around and creating an 8GB RAM disk or something to see what the memory pressure would be on an 8GB machine. Otherwise, maybe you'd have been fine with 8GB, maybe not.

That's the problem, it's almost impossible for most people to predict whether they're going to need more RAM or not. If the RAM were upgradeable after purchase you could start off low and expand if necessary. If the BTO upgrade cost a more realistic $50-per-8GB rather than $200-per-8GB then you wouldn't have to agonize about over-speccing a bit. There's no justification for such a modest amount of extra ram RAM to account for 25% of the price of the machine.

Going to 16GB as the base spec is a great help, but they stuck on 8GB for so long that its already behind the curve. I suspect that the effect on Apple's costs is insignificant once you take into account economies of scale (no need to buy in 4GB chips) and logistics (with the M4s added capacity they'd have needed to make 4 different flavours of M4 packages - 8 as well as 16, 24 and 32GB - rather than the previous 3 - 8, 16, 24)


Sure, that's the solution for the moment - but it shouldn't be necessary. Some people will always need external storage for their documents/projects/media library/backup, and can choose between USB, Thunderbolt, NAS or cloud storage as appropriate - but the internal SSD with the fastest access should be big enough for the OS, temporary storage, applications & their libraries and plenty of free space to keep the SSD running smoothly, even under frequent writing from swap and temporary storage. 256GB is too small for that once you install a couple of pro apps or games... and using external storage to install apps pretty much rules out wireless NAS or cloud storage which would avoid needing a second box tethered by a cable.

As with 16GB RAM, 512GB or 1TB is simply not something that should cost hundreds of bucks extra in 2024.
Well, I don't disagree with what you had written above. But the M4 Mini's RAM and internal storage makes a lot of buyers ambivalent. The RAM can't be upgrade by the buyer, and so the SSD. If I were to choose between the two (RAM or SSD), I would opt for more RAM at least 32GB. I already know that I cannot rig the Mini with external RAM modules, but I can very well move the Home Folder to an external 2 to 4TB or larger SSD, and leave the internal 256GB SSD for the system files and folders. All other apps I can move to the external drive (mostly photo editing apps, CCC, the App-Store apps, etc.). 256GB of internal storage is not of any use to me, and Apple wants too much for a 2TB to 4TB SSD.

I have watched at least one YouTube video where a M4 Mini with 16GB RAM was exchanged for another Mini with 24GB RAM. The host explained the reasons why 16GB of RAM wasn't the best for what work he wanted to put the Mini through. Other than both the RAM and base SSD not the greatest, all the reviews about the M4 chip are outstanding.
 
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Another point that has been ignored, the 16GB its shared between the cpu and gpu and both needs RAM.

One usage for me would be a couple of VMs.

Assign 3GB to 2 of them and you are 6 gb down, leaving 10 for the OS and anything else running.

And from those 10, the GPU will grab some more.

That’s assuming that the VMs are installed either on an external drive or a NAS.

But as others mentioned, if all you do is a couple of browser tabs, the occasional photo editing or quick video editing AND assuming (again) that AI is not a memory hog, then 16gb should be ok.

@AlaskaMoose You are correct, buy more ram (if needed) and wait for what it looks to be cheaper options for internal storage.

Like this:

 
Another point that has been ignored, the 16GB its shared between the cpu and gpu and both needs RAM.

One usage for me would be a couple of VMs.

Assign 3GB to 2 of them and you are 6 gb down, leaving 10 for the OS and anything else running.

And from those 10, the GPU will grab some more.

That’s assuming that the VMs are installed either on an external drive or a NAS.

But as others mentioned, if all you do is a couple of browser tabs, the occasional photo editing or quick video editing AND assuming (again) that AI is not a memory hog, then 16gb should be ok.

@AlaskaMoose You are correct, buy more ram (if needed) and wait for what it looks to be cheaper options for internal storage.

Like this:

Dude, if you are running VMs, you probably don’t fall into the group of us that will be happy with 16GB of RAM. For VMs, I use my 32GB RAM Windows laptop with a 4060.

If I were to try to replace both my gaming laptop and my Mac, I would have to get a M4 Pro MacBook Pro with 32GB. In your shoes, I would get an M4 Pro Mac Mini with at least 32GB RAM.

Edited to add: Should have read your whole post. Ha! We agree. That’s what I get for stopping halfway through and posting.
 
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Another point that has been ignored, the 16GB its shared between the cpu and gpu and both needs RAM.

One usage for me would be a couple of VMs.

Assign 3GB to 2 of them and you are 6 gb down, leaving 10 for the OS and anything else running.

And from those 10, the GPU will grab some more.

That’s assuming that the VMs are installed either on an external drive or a NAS.

But as others mentioned, if all you do is a couple of browser tabs, the occasional photo editing or quick video editing AND assuming (again) that AI is not a memory hog, then 16gb should be ok.

@AlaskaMoose You are correct, buy more ram (if needed) and wait for what it looks to be cheaper options for internal storage.

Like this:

It has not been ignored. It's well understood that if you are running VM's you need more RAM.
 
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