Real Pc -- New Informations !

[awulf]

Originally posted by BaghdadBob

I'm with iJon here. If I were solely interested in gaming and had no morals I would buy a PC in a heartbeat. All Apple loyalists will agree with me on the following points because we've lived through the agony for too long:

A: It's cheaper to buy, "pound for pound." For the money you would spend on a top of the line G4 you could have a PC with far more power and a sweet monitor to boot.

In the log run macs are cheaper, it has been proven (there is an article somewhere) plus Mac's come with way more features and Apple gives away I apps.

B: It's cheaper to upgrade. Hopefully this will go away, but currently I know of no way to do a complete upgrade of a mac in the way you can with a PC (for, once again, a fraction of the cost).

PowerMac's are highly upgradable, the only thing that would be expensive to upgrade is the CPU (which a PC can't upgrade as far as a Mac can, i.e. my PM7600/132 can be upgraded to a G4), other than that you can use what ever brand of memory, hard disks and CD-ROM/RW drives.

C: PC game developers largely ignore the Mac market because it is too small (like 3%, down from ten what seems like an eternity ago). BUNGIE was one of the only companies that was faithful to the Mac market, and guess what? Microsoft bought them. Activision ignored Mac users with Hexen II, even though the engine (Quake II, I believe) was already developed for the Mac and they had a minimal amount of work to do to port it. The vast majority of games, and software, are never ported to the mac. But take solace -- most games and software are crap anyway.

Yep there aren't many games on the mac, but enough for me.

Generally, Mac users only get the cream when it comes to games because it just isn't worth the time to develop a bad game for a small market. However, most of these, when they are ports, take months to move over. And then you have the issue of not being able to keep up with the speed required to run games if your computer is too old, and you need to blow another 3k on a new CPU to be "up-to-date." Running an emulator won't solve this problem.

Get a cheaper CPU upgrade

But here's my own personal feeling on the subject: I won't support Microsoft.

I own a PS2 and a GC, but no XBOX. I don't care what comes out on it.

Actually it would be best if everyone bought an xBox and not to buy any games for it, because MS makes a loss on each one.

I will continue to struggle along, buying a new computer every three years as I can afford it (hopefully I can stop working crappy jobs and this changes) and watch all the good computer games go by.

I will do this, because, despite my love/hate relationship with Apple, I have been a Mac user since '86. I have been forced to use PCs, and I hate them. I mean that. I also hate Microsoft. I mean that too. Apple is a company that needs to be supported, much like your favourite bands, because if the money goes away, the music won't be heard. And, in my own little fantasy world, I believe that one day I will not be laughed at by ignorant PC clones.

Thank you, that is all.

 

[Malus120]

Re: VPC versus RPC

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
Dang skippy! I will miss Connectix, they served us all well. An excellent company in its day.

Oh **** another one i gotta aruge. Personally I almost hate Connectix for what they did to poor Virtual Game Station(a playstation Emu and one of the best products to come out of that ****ty company), some of the really stupid decisions they made with VPC(slow, dropping/not improving vid card support),ect.
With VGS they made some of the worst customer support/customer relations decisions ever. When the court ordered them(at Sony's request) to temporarily stop selling(NOT stop supporting as far as i know) VGS while they reviewed the facts or whatever they NEVER ONCE updated VGS during this period and by the time the order was FINNALY lifted they released a Windows V 1.3 and left the mac at 1.2(of course they rectified this later by giving us 1.4 first but still) when an update to 1.2 had been in desperate need for months(many newer games were having problems). Then after another year or so they just sold out to Sony and even though they SAID they would continue to support thier customers until VGS went completely to sony(scheduled at the time for 6-12 months later cant remember) they never released a single update beyond 1.4.1(which had been released a good while ago) No OS X version no version to work in classic not even a 1.5 WHAT A WASTE!!!!!

 

[iJon]

Re: Re: VPC versus RPC

Originally posted by Malus120
Oh **** another one i gotta aruge. Personally I almost hate Connectix for what they did to poor Virtual Game Station(a playstation Emu and one of the best products to come out of that ****ty company), some of the really stupid decisions they made with VPC(slow, dropping/not improving vid card support),ect.
With VGS they made some of the worst customer support/customer relations decisions ever. When the court ordered them(at Sony's request) to temporarily stop selling(NOT stop supporting as far as i know) VGS while they reviewed the facts or whatever they NEVER ONCE updated VGS during this period and by the time the order was FINNALY lifted they released a Windows V 1.3 and left the mac at 1.2(of course they rectified this later by giving us 1.4 first but still) when an update to 1.2 had been in desperate need for months(many newer games were having problems). Then after another year or so they just sold out to Sony and even though they SAID they would continue to support thier customers until VGS went completely to sony(scheduled at the time for 6-12 months later cant remember) they never released a single update beyond 1.4.1(which had been released a good while ago) No OS X version no version to work in classic not even a 1.5 WHAT A WASTE!!!!!

it was an excellent product, and that is the exact reason sony bought it, they couldnt help it.

iJon

 

[iJon]

Originally posted by awulf
PowerMac's are highly upgradable, the only thing that would be expensive to upgrade is the CPU (which a PC can't upgrade as far as a Mac can, i.e. my PM7600/132 can be upgraded to a G4), other than that you can use what ever brand of memory, hard disks and CD-ROM/RW drives.

this is very true, we are very close but one thing is lacking. the mobo. we cant upgrade the mobo, that is where the pc shines, i can go get a new mobo for about 100-200 dollars, get me a new processor of my choice, and probably have to get some new ram. and that is all cheaper than a good cpu upgrade for the mac, let alone a new mobo for the mac.

iJon

 

[Malus120]

Re: Re: Re: VPC versus RPC

Originally posted by iJon
it was an excellent product, and that is the exact reason sony bought it, they couldnt help it.

iJon

True they coundlt stop the whole lawsuit and ill almost forgive them for selling out(im sure it was a lot of cash), my issue here is the quality of thier customer support, the fact that they tottally left thier customers for dead not once, but TWICE, just really pisses me off.

 

[Centris 650]

My question is will RealPC be SoftWindows under another name, therefore older versions would be upgradeable or will RPC be severing it's connections with SW? I haven't used SW98 since I got my iBook in Jan of 2001. It would be nice to save some cahs and be able to upgrade though I'm not holding my breath.

 

[BaghdadBob]

Re: Re: VPC versus RPC

Originally posted by Malus120
Oh **** another one i gotta aruge. Personally I almost hate Connectix for what they did to poor Virtual Game Station(a playstation Emu and one of the best products to come out of that ****ty company), some of the really stupid decisions they made with VPC(slow, dropping/not improving vid card support),ect.
With VGS they made some of the worst customer support/customer relations decisions ever. When the court ordered them(at Sony's request) to temporarily stop selling(NOT stop supporting as far as i know) VGS while they reviewed the facts or whatever they NEVER ONCE updated VGS during this period and by the time the order was FINNALY lifted they released a Windows V 1.3 and left the mac at 1.2(of course they rectified this later by giving us 1.4 first but still) when an update to 1.2 had been in desperate need for months(many newer games were having problems). Then after another year or so they just sold out to Sony and even though they SAID they would continue to support thier customers until VGS went completely to sony(scheduled at the time for 6-12 months later cant remember) they never released a single update beyond 1.4.1(which had been released a good while ago) No OS X version no version to work in classic not even a 1.5 WHAT A WASTE!!!!!

Yeah, well, I said in its day. I don't know about VGS, but they made better memory management than Apple and better extension management than Apple. In their day. I havn't kept up with them since I stopped needing RAM Doubler. But there was a time when you might still use the product without doubling your ram because the memory management was more efficient. Personally I think Apple should have absorbed them long ago.

 

[bousozoku]

Re: Re: Re: Re: VPC versus RPC

Originally posted by Malus120
True they coundlt stop the whole lawsuit and ill almost forgive them for selling out(im sure it was a lot of cash), my issue here is the quality of thier customer support, the fact that they tottally left thier customers for dead not once, but TWICE, just really pisses me off.

When they were told by the courts not to distribute it, that included updates, whether anyone needed them or not.

They're quite a good company, with good developers and they advanced Mac development quite a bit. I'm sure they went further with experimentation, but it proved unstable and they left things where they were.

 

[reiggin]

OS 9 *AND* X?!?!?

How can they, as the macrumors.com blurb says, be planning both OS 9 *and* OS X versions when, according to the interview, they are working with the Solaris UNIX code and, because of that, it will interact more closely with the hardware, via the kernel, I suppose. Even in the interview, he comments on the limitations of OS 9, citing that it doesn't allow as much access to the hardware. So where does macrumors.com get this info about there being an OS 9 version?!? And why would they do such a thing? 9 is dead, people. Developers should really just stop wasting their time. Except Quark. They shouldn't break tradition or anything.

-Reiggin

 

[reiggin]

PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by awulf
PowerMac's are highly upgradable, the only thing that would be expensive to upgrade is the CPU (which a PC can't upgrade as far as a Mac can, i.e. my PM7600/132 can be upgraded to a G4),

One word: Motherboard.

Yeah, you can upgrade your 7600 to a G4 but you're wasting time and money. Until you can purchase a new Mac motherboard for under $150 (new as in "newest") for your non-standard case, don't bring that one to the table. ATX is sweet. PowerMac's are NOT highly upgradable until they meet that kind of a standard. Which they never will. Jobs wouldn't have it any other way.

-Reiggin

 

[awulf]

Re: PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by reiggin
One word: Motherboard.

Yeah, you can upgrade your 7600 to a G4 but you're wasting time and money. Until you can purchase a new Mac motherboard for under $150 (new as in "newest") for your non-standard case, don't bring that one to the table. ATX is sweet. PowerMac's are NOT highly upgradable until they meet that kind of a standard. Which they never will. Jobs wouldn't have it any other way.

-Reiggin

Yes I agree, you can't upgrade the motherboard in those macs but if you have replaced everything but the casing then it isn't a PowerMac [value] anymore. If you want complete control then build your own Mac (There is a page on the net but I can't find it anymore). Buy a second hand G4 motherboard, and ATX case, CD-ROM.....

 

[AhmedFaisal]

Well how about something rootless?

The one thing that royally annoys me about VPC is that the progs run in a separate desktop window, baaah. We need something that runs rootless and minimizes to the dock. Even better would be something like Wine that spares you from having to install a MickeySoft Winblows in the first place.
Cheers,

Ahmed

 

[BaghdadBob]

Re: Re: PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by awulf
Buy a second hand G4 motherboard, and ATX case, CD-ROM.....

See, that's the problem, you don't have to buy used stuff to upgrade a PC, you can buy it new. And there's no shortage of people who will sell it to you. Or, consequently people buying it (ahem).

Jobs really needs to get off his high horse on this one. It is SERIOUSLY hampering the growth of Apple's market share. But that's just my opinion...maybe someday people will agree with Jobs that they should have to buy used goods or tap the college fund to buy a new computer so they can get a speed bump...what do I know....

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: Well how about something rootless?

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
The one thing that royally annoys me about VPC is that the progs run in a separate desktop window, baaah. We need something that runs rootless and minimizes to the dock. Even better would be something like Wine that spares you from having to install a MickeySoft Winblows in the first place.
Cheers,

Ahmed

I do get tired of people talking about WINE. It's impossible to port WINE to MacOS X. It would be like saying 'let's port MOL to RedHat Linux...' (For those of you that aren't familiar with it, MOL is Mac On Linux, which runs under many - perhaps all - flavors of PPC linux.)

WINE uses the processor, just like the OS. If the processor isn't an x86, then WINE can't run.

 

[Snowy_River]

Re: Re: Re: PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by BaghdadBob
See, that's the problem, you don't have to buy used stuff to upgrade a PC, you can buy it new. And there's no shortage of people who will sell it to you. Or, consequently people buying it (ahem).

Jobs really needs to get off his high horse on this one. It is SERIOUSLY hampering the growth of Apple's market share. But that's just my opinion...maybe someday people will agree with Jobs that they should have to buy used goods or tap the college fund to buy a new computer so they can get a speed bump...what do I know....

There are a couple of things that this overlooks. (Mind you, there's a degree to which I agree with you, but I just felt that these points should be made...)

Part of the reason that the MacOS is so nice is because Apple has such good control over the hardware that it runs on. If Apple had to worry about the hardware that everyone was running on, we might have a much more unstable OS, like Windows.

Secondly, one of the reasons that Apple pulled the plug on the clones is because, for the most part, it wasn't helping Apple's market share. It was simply decreasing the number of machines that Apple sold (less $ for development).

For now, Apple maintaining such a tight hold on the hardware is, at least in some ways, to our advantage.

 

[BaghdadBob]

Re: Re: Re: Re: PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by Snowy_River
There are a couple of things that this overlooks. (Mind you, there's a degree to which I agree with you, but I just felt that these points should be made...)

Part of the reason that the MacOS is so nice is because Apple has such good control over the hardware that it runs on. If Apple had to worry about the hardware that everyone was running on, we might have a much more unstable OS, like Windows.

Yes, I agree, but I'll let Apple worry about standard configurations if I can attempt to upgrade at my own risk. Apple needs to strike a little bit better of a balance between simplifying things for the user and allowing them to play with fire, in my opinion, at least on this point.

Secondly, one of the reasons that Apple pulled the plug on the clones is because, for the most part, it wasn't helping Apple's market share. It was simply decreasing the number of machines that Apple sold (less $ for development).

Well, yes and no. From my understanding of the situation, they pulled the plug because the clone-makers weren't helping them compete with PCs, they were only competing with Apple's existing business. Apple making their motherboards and processors available for sale is more selling of their own product -- in smaller chunks. People recycling motherboards and processors does nothing for their business. And how big is their profit margin on CPUs? Is it as big as OS licenses? I wonder how it would pan out if they sold 300,000 less computers, but sold 600,000 chipsets and 300,000 more OS X licenses? Assuming people weren't using the chipsets to upgrade, but to build...

For now, Apple maintaining such a tight hold on the hardware is, at least in some ways, to our advantage.

Well, I truly do want what's best for the company (and therefore good for all of us), but I believe that they need to be less margin oriented and more revenue oriented. Hell, with the bank at 4.4 bil, I'd be willing to see them lose money for a couple of years straight if it meant a significant increase in market share. The current ratio is just rediculous.

The solution, I think, is at the very least to offer upgrade packages like they did with the LCs, except not to suck. That way they could have a tight control of the hardware through licensed installers and still offer their customers a way to keep up with the times. If I could pay $300 to upgrade my processor I would do it at much more regular intervals than buying.

Anyway...what thread was this again???

 

[Sol]

Zif & console emulators

From the rumors about the next generation of PowerMac motherboards I have learned that the processors will be on something call a Zif daughter-card or something like that. I assume this means that upgrades will be easier than the current system. Perhaps Apple will offer the upgrades themselves.

As for Real PC, we will know if it is better than Virtual PC in a few weeks. I hope that FWB also consider making a few console emulators so that we can play yet more games on the Mac. I have yet to see a Saturn emulator for the Mac and I have yet to see PSX on OS X. I know there is one in development but I do not have a file called the BIOS ROM so I do not know how good that one is.

 

[dongmin]

Focus, focus people. Don't let this thread degenerate to a "this console is better than this console" debate or a "PCs are so much more upgradable than Macs" discussion. Been there, done that.

Anyways, getting back on topic, did you guys read the OSCast.com rumor? I've never heard of these guys and I'm sure they're making up most of their stuff, but this part really raised my eyebrows:

A source close to Apple recently relayed information to oscast suggesting that Apple had intended to use emulation software to show the power and performance of its upcoming hardware. This individual stated that Windows software running in emulation performed certain instructions significantly faster than what a hard PC was able to do.

Another (separate) source told oscast that a key reason for Microsoft's acquisition of Connectix's PC emulator, was to "discontinue development of a version of [Virtual PC] that would take advantage of two unreleased hardware technologies that would significantly boost the software's performance."

Incredible, if you ask me. What "two unreleased hardware technologies" could they be talking about? Yes we know about the 970, but what's the second? Hypertransport? RapidIO? Apple Processor Interconnect? PCI-X?

If this is indeed true, couldn't Microsoft's actions be interpreted as being "monopolistic" or a kind of collusion? They acquired a company and killed the development of an emulation product that would have benefitted a competitior (Apple) and discredited the Windows-Intel platform?

 

[Sol]

Well, if an emulated Windows would run faster on a 970 computer that would reflect worse on Intel than Microsoft. With Real PC back in the game I do not think Microsoft will do anything to slow down Virtual PC. By the way, Microsoft made a point of the continuation of Virtual PC's development for OS X so I would not jump to any conclusions about monopolistic practices.

As for the two unreleased technologies, I have no idea what the second one would be. From all the suggestions you made only the Apple Processor Interconnect is a Mac-only product but you would have to explain to me what that is before I could believe this is it.

 

[bikertwin]

100% Pure Marketing Fluff

From the interview:

"will RealPC use Altivec?"

"To be honest, I don't know the answer to this question."


OK, folks, if this guy doesn't even know what processor features the product uses, how can we trust what he says about performance? Of course a company is going to say "our product is the bestest and fastest" but based on his lack of technical knowledge, his claims seem dubious.

100% unadulterated marketing fluff, IMHO.

 

[iJon]

Re: Re: PowerMac's highly upgradable?

Originally posted by awulf
Yes I agree, you can't upgrade the motherboard in those macs but if you have replaced everything but the casing then it isn't a PowerMac [value] anymore. If you want complete control then build your own Mac (There is a page on the net but I can't find it anymore). Buy a second hand G4 motherboard, and ATX case, CD-ROM.....

a g4 mobo isnt the standard atx form factor. and plus you cant buy a new g4 mobo easily, it will cost you about 500-1000 dollars. and by the time you tie that into a new cpu upgrade you have the price of a new mac. it just isnt worth it.

iJon

 

[Raiwong]

going back to the game subject I second to that macs virtually have no up to date games, especially in the area of more complicated games like RPGs , MMORPG and also numerous other PC games and these games are good.

I would like to play neocron ( MMORPG), Freelancer, Age of methodology, battlefield, syberia, mafia, c&c and many more others which r never released on the mac. I also am waiting desperately for unreal tournament 2003 not to mention halflife mods like CS and NS won't run then there are all the space simulation games I like. There is just too much to talk about. Blizzard is about the only company that produces mac versions on the fly I really like them.

in addition emulators on mac are also behind PC has Ps emulators and others while macers are stuck with a backward snes9x system. Arguably the best game developement syastem 3D studio max doesn't even run on the mac no.

anybody who says mac have games on par with pc is hard to undestand, but I agree that mac don't not have games they do but in no way to the crap box.

If this emulation becomes reality i'll be so happy willing to pay high price for it,

 

[dongmin]

Re: 100% Pure Marketing Fluff

Originally posted by bikertwin
100% unadulterated marketing fluff, IMHO.

I tend to agree, although as a user of a Windows-only program on VirtualPC, I really hope the new RealPC delivers a real performance improvement over VPC. I'm not asking for faster-than-PC performace or 100 fps on a 3rd-person shooter emulated on my Mac; I just want something faster than Pentium II 200 mhz.

This FWB guy is really reaching when he makes direct references to rumors. No doubt he's trying to generate some hype.

 

[kcmac]

A couple of years back, I think it was the SoftWindows people, kept showing up at conventions touting that they were going to kick VPC's backside. Never happened.

Now Real PC suddenly comes out of the closet and says that in a few weeks they will kick VPC's backside. And that the only reason that they haven't done so to date is because they had an arrangement with Connectix that they wouldn't develop it.

MS buys Connectix and all of a sudden this agreement is null and void? I don't think so. MS would have purchased this agreement with the deal. (If there was a deal.)

I also am suspicious of a company that would agree not to compete. That sounds like a real long term loyal mac developer to me.

The interview was complete marketing BS. No doubt they are developing something, but it will also be compatible with OS 9. Or so they say.

So how is this thing going to be faster? Because of the 970. Will it be faster for our current macs? I ain't banking on it. And I'm not buying this talk.

I am betting that MS will further develop VPC because it still represents software sales. Buy VPC. Buy versions of Windows OS. I just hope they don't stop developing Mac Office and instead make us buy MS Office and use it emulation mode.

 

[Frobozz]

Who cares?

I use VirtualPC 5 and it runs the 2 or 3 proprietary apps I need to run, and is useful for testing my pages on Windows IE. Who does FWB think they can woo from VirtualPC? You're never going to be able to play games on an emulator like this, so what you're left with is simply feature parity with VirtualPC.

PC emulators, in general, are a bad idea for the Mac. The only thing they are good for are the things above. If we all get excited about PC emulation software, then why not just buy a cheap PC for $300. Either way, you're supporting the evil empire through OS sales, but at least you could play some PC-only games...