Returning my 16 MBP

[CloudsNeverDie]

These vary from preferences to non-issues. The response time is is plenty good given the refresh rate. The text scrolling thing is doesn't impact my machine and ghosting isn't a problem at all. Otherwise the TB is weird, I agree, but it is what it is at this point. Your only option is to live with an older or much lower power machine from Apple, a desktop or a windows machine. The MagSafe thing is another pro/con issue. You can now use a variety of plugs and cables to power your computer, it also provides video/data streams. The last things on the list there are just silliness. Pure and simple. The logo? Really? Wifi 6 isn't exactly the norm just yet, even for other very high end computers, like the ThinkPad P series, many still lack Wifi 6.

The response time is ~2x worse than my late-2013 MBP 15". I have posted images proving such in the ghosting thread on this forum.

Wifi 6 is very much the norm, and is available on almost all PC laptops released this year. I checked two ThinkPad P series laptops on Lenovo's site, they both have WiFi 6, as does the X1 Extreme Gen 2, the X1 Carbon Gen 6, the Dell XPS 13 and 15, Microsoft's Surface laptops, and so on. This has been widely reported even in overall positive MBP 16 reviews.

Yes, I do find the logo annoying, enough to cover it with black tape. When I'm using my laptop, I want to be looking at the information on the screen, not being reminded that I am using an Apple product.

Get a good docking solution. Its the way it is now and in someways it is better. I know its a pain at times, but again, how long are you going to deal with a machine from 2013 just so you can plug in a USB A device without using an adapter?

Actually, my machine from 2013 is pretty darn great, especially from a value perspective. You can pick one up used for ~$1000. It has an amazing keyboard with excellent key travel, a full row of function keys, and no usability issues at all. The trackpad is essentially perfect in every way, it's the right size, it feels nice to the touch, and there's enough space around it to rest fingers or palms. It's a 6-core machine and almost as fast as the 2019 laptops for most purposes (according to my real use tests, anyway). It has a high DPI, fast, 15.6" screen. It has a 1TB SSD which is more than enough for what I need. I just wish I could upgrade it from 16GB to 32GB of RAM, that's my only complaint, but again, thanks to Apple's "soldered components" policy, I can't.

There might just be something wrong with your machine. These things you're doing aren't really meant to be done on a laptop. If you need to do them for a typical song to just sound normal, something isn't right. Between this and the display, maybe you just got a bad unit?

Perfectly possible, it seems to be from an early batch (panel A02). However, I didn't expect to pay almost $4K and receive a bad unit. I expected Apple to have better quality control.

Well yeah, a desktop is likely to be faster, but I am seriously suspecting your numbers here. Only 20% faster than a Haswell chip, but half the speed of a modern desktop....? Not likely. Speeds should be about 50% to 100%+ faster (single vs multicore) from current gen to Haswell. And the only way you're getting 2x faster speeds even on a current desktop is with very long running tasks and very high end processors. I've benchmarked my own workflows with the 2.4 i9 vs the 12 core in the 2013 Mac Pro, and its a dead heat.

Here are my benchmarks, compiling and building a Flutter app. These are best times from 3-4 consecutive clean builds. The 2013 laptop cost roughly the same amount back then as the 2019 today, but had only 16GB compared to 32GB I have on the MBP 16". The desktop machine has an i9-9900K and 32GB.

iOS build:

• Late-2013 MBP: 135.9s
• MBP 16": 106.4s (28% faster)
• Desktop: 66.3s (105% faster)

Android build:

• Late-2013 MBP: 219.4s
• MBP 16": 175.6s (25% faster)
• Desktop: 109.3s (101% faster)

I'm not entirely sure why the desktop is so much faster, but the build is limited by single-core performance and thermal throttling, so I suspect it's a combination of the higher single-core clock speed and more efficient cooling.

What windows laptop did you get for $1600 that was "equivalently specced" as the $4K MacBook Pro? I smell BS all over this post of yours, but we're certain now. A $1600 laptop like that doesn't exist. But I'd love to be proved wrong.

Easy, you could buy a Dell XPS 15 or Lenovo X1 Extreme Gen 2 with a 4K screen in one of the recent Black Friday or Cyber Monday sales. Just don't spec it out with 32GB RAM and a 2TB SSD, etc., instead get the least RAM and disk the manufacturer offers, and upgrade them yourself (this is trivially easy, on the Lenovo laptops it can be done with nothing more than a Philips screwdriver). I priced it out, it came to around $1600 total at the time, if you offset the money you get back from selling the original RAM and SSD. But prices fluctuate so it might have been a lucky week. And by the way, the Dell and Lenovo models can be shipped with a beautiful true 4K OLED screen, all of them have WiFi 6, and they include all the ports you could ever want. Not to mention that the Lenovo at least (not sure about the Dell) is half a pound lighter. So arguably, they are not just "equivalently specced", they are higher specced.
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I have a hard time believing there wasn’t a significant performance boost from your late 2013 15” to 2019 16”. I also had a late 2013 15.4” MBP and when I upgraded to a maxed out 16” my Cinema 4D render times for a 9000 frame animation with a lot of transparency and reflections went down to 19 hours when normally that would be over 36 hours. I’d run a geek bench score to see if your machine is running properly.

It definitely depends on your workload. Certainly Cinebench R20 and Geekbench scores are much higher on my 2019 compared to the 2013 (roughly a factor of two). However, I don't do much rendering or other graphics work, I don't play games on my laptop, and I really just don't use the GPU much. Nor does my usage pattern require many cores. Mostly I am doing Xcode or gradle builds, and for those specific tasks, there doesn't seem to be enough of an improvement to justify putting up with the other issues I have with the laptop.

I tested IntelliJ autocomplete responsiveness too, and found the same, only a ~20% improvement over my 2013 model. That kind of workload is also single-core dominated.

 

[Nacho98]

Actually, my machine from 2013 is pretty darn great, especially from a value perspective. You can pick one up used for ~$1000. It has an amazing keyboard with excellent key travel, a full row of function keys, and no usability issues at all. The trackpad is essentially perfect in every way, it's the right size, it feels nice to the touch, and there's enough space around it to rest fingers or palms. It's a 6-core machine and almost as fast as the 2019 laptops for most purposes (according to my real use tests, anyway). It has a high DPI, fast, 15.6" screen. It has a 1TB SSD which is more than enough for what I need. I just wish I could upgrade it from 16GB to 32GB of RAM, that's my only complaint, but again, thanks to Apple's "soldered components" policy, I can't.

Wait a second - are you describing a 2013 MBP?

If so, let's get the facts straight about your 2013 MBP:

1) It is NOT a 6-core processor
2) It has LOWER pixel density than the 16"
3) It's 15.4", not 15.6"

When you can't get basic facts right about a machine you actually own and are singing the praises of, you lose all credibility.

 

[Natzoo]

I don’t know about everyone else but the 16MBP has been a huge letdown for me.
Speakers having that “popping sound”
Noisy fans when editing in FCPX/Lightroom
Flickering screen when using external monitors

For close to $4,000 after all the configurations I made I can’t justify this purchase and I was wondering if anyone else feels the same way..

before this I had a late 2013 Mac Pro and 2012 MBP and the goal was to consolidate devices. I’ve had nothing but headaches with this machine.

I picked up a 12.9“ iPad Pro earlier this year and it’s easily my favorite apple product I’ve owned in a long time. Guess I’ll be doubling down on iPad only until further notice.

If anything, wait for the 2020 variant. Intel 10th gen will come with wifi 6 and apple will fix out any kinks.

P.S. I'm assuming that Mac OS is what you need. But if not, Lenovo's workstation looks like a great alternative.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

1) It is NOT a 6-core processor

Sure, 4-core, not 6-core, my mistake.

2) It has LOWER pixel density than the 16"

I didn't say it had an equal or higher pixel density. I just said it had a high DPI. High enough for me. That's why they called it a Retina display. I don't notice the DPI difference between the 15" Retina screens and the new 16" screens, do you?

3) It's 15.4", not 15.6"

My mistake, hope you won't begrudge me 0.2". With so many laptops on the market, it's hard to keep track of all the specs.

When you can't get basic facts right about a machine you actually own and are singing the praises of, you lose all credibility.

Good luck finding someone perfect enough to get everything right 100% of the time. I make mistakes, so do you. When I see someone making a mistake, I correct them respectfully, and give them the benefit of the doubt. I don't then decide that everything they say is no longer credible. You show me some respect, and I'll show you some respect.

 

[49erRedGold]

(c) Yes, I noticed the logo. I didn't realize how irritating it would be until I used it daily. I ended up covering it with black tape.

Personally I love the MacBook Pro logo underneath the screen. That's what Apple has been doing for many years since the early Powerbooks. I just find it comical that people trash Apple (as if Apple is the only one), just because it's Apple. Thought I'd show a few laptops of the enormous many that put their brand name in the same place as Apple does on the MacBook Pro. Some like the Lenovo Thinkpad are among the worst in attempting to push their name and product model in the customer's face. I guess you never noticed these when throwing shade on Apple.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Sure I noticed them, and yeah, I find the Dell, Lenovo, and Razer logos annoying, too (and would likely also cover them with tape!). However, those laptops are all substantially cheaper than Apple's.

I just wish Apple would go back to the 2012-2015 era when they didn't put branding right underneath the screen.

And by the way, I'm not trashing Apple - I just don't like their new laptops. I love my 2013 Apple laptop and have used it as my daily driver from the day I purchased it. I have an iPhone 11 Pro, the latest Watch, an iPad Pro with the Pencil, a HomePod, and the Airpods Pro, and they're all really great products. I love Mac OS. iCloud works great for me and I have no issues with it. I'm also a subscriber to Apple Music. In fact, by most metrics, I'm an Apple fanboy. I'm also an investor.

But, to get back to the original topic, my MBP 16" is going back to the store, because unlike the many other Apple products I own and love, it doesn't meet my high expectations for Apple's product design and quality control.

 

[itsamacthing]

Have had my loaded 16MBP for 3 days now. Transferred my data from my 2017 MBP. I have not had to reboot it, have used it with external Dell monitor, connected docks, external hard drives, etc... have not seen any issues with it yet. Transferred a large amount of data to it last night from my NAS, will start to work more on it again today... so far, the best MBP I have ever owned. The keys are solid, the body is flawless, it’s fast as hell and stable So far. If I see one bridgeOS error, its going right back

 

[49erRedGold]

Sure I noticed them, and yeah, I find the Dell, Lenovo, and Razer logos annoying, too (and would likely also cover them with tape!). However, those laptops are all substantially cheaper than Apple's.

And how does the price of a laptop factor into giving them a pass for placing annoying logos in the consumer's face? Seems like you're just looking for a reason to trash Apple.

And by the way, I'm not trashing Apple - I just don't like their new laptops.

You actually were. Your words from earlier:

"The annoying "MacBook Pro" logo beneath the screen. My late 2013 MBP 15" had no such vulgar branding."

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Well you know, normally people charge money to have ads placed on their products, websites, etc. I'll wear your logo on my t-shirt, but probably only if you give me the t-shirt for free. No such choice with any of these laptops.

Nope. Not trashing Apple. Patently just complaining about the laptop, but thanks for your interest.

 

[49erRedGold]

Well you know, normally people charge money to have ads placed on their products, websites, etc. I'll wear your logo on my t-shirt, but probably only if you give me the t-shirt for free. No such choice with any of these laptops.

Oh you mean like the annoying plethora of trial software on Windows machines forced in the consumer's face in order to get the price down on PC's? I think you're reaching pretty deep looking for reasons to hate on the new 16". It's been getting rave reviews overall and whether it's your cup of tea or not Apple has done a fine job with it. As I said earlier everything you mentioned earlier that you hated was easily seen in the 2 hours you were at the Apple store checking it out.

 

[Hazmat401]

I'm not trying to insult or anything.....but what the hell?

I really don't understand why a good portion of Macrumors are so intolerant to fan noise. I wish I didn't leave my Apple Watch at home.... fans at max setting can't be more than 5-10 decibels

Some of you guys making it sound like its loud as a damn Oreck Vacuum cleaner from the 90s

$3,000/$4,000 or not..... some of you guys need to lower your expectations big time

 

[profcutter]

Wait a second - are you describing a 2013 MBP?

If so, let's get the facts straight about your 2013 MBP:

1) It is NOT a 6-core processor
2) It has LOWER pixel density than the 16"
3) It's 15.4", not 15.6"

When you can't get basic facts right about a machine you actually own and are singing the praises of, you lose all credibility.

OK, that's just silly. I've owned macs since the late 1990s, and the glowing logo has always been an annoyance for me. How about when my kids are sleeping in the same hotel room, and I want to work, I have to tape over the logo so it doesn't keep them up? If you can't understand why someone would be annoyed by that, aside from the free advertising that apple gets when you're using your computer in public, then you have a great deal to learn about the world.

 

[49erRedGold]

OK, that's just silly. I've owned macs since the late 1990s, and the glowing logo has always been an annoyance for me. How about when my kids are sleeping in the same hotel room, and I want to work, I have to tape over the logo so it doesn't keep them up? If you can't understand why someone would be annoyed by that, aside from the free advertising that apple gets when you're using your computer in public, then you have a great deal to learn about the world.

Uh I think you misunderstood that post. That member was referring to another member putting black tape over the MacBook Pro logo name underneath the screen. He wasn't referring to the Apple logo on the back of the lid.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Uh I think you misunderstood that post. That member was referring to another member putting black tape over the MacBook Pro logo name underneath the screen. He wasn't referring to the Apple logo on the back of the lid.

I'm pretty sure he or she knows that already, but I'm sure he or she will appreciate you pointing this obvious fact out to him or her.

 

[ugahairydawgs]

I have a hard time believing there wasn’t a significant performance boost from your late 2013 15” to 2019 16”.

Agreed. I came from a 2016 15” and that difference has been dramatic.

 

[49erRedGold]

I'm pretty sure he or she knows that already, but I'm sure he or she will appreciate you pointing this obvious fact out to him or her.

I'm not sure why you posted any of that? If that poster knew he/she was incorrect he/she would've edited their post by now or never made that statement trying to "straighten out" that other poster. Thanks for your input?

 

[Macshroomer]

I just got done with three photo shoots today that started at 8AM and done at 6, about 2,000 medium res raw files. Normally I don't have enough time in between clients to pull off an edit and move images but today I sure did, this thing just flat out rips!

In my years of using Apple laptops since the Powerbook G3 "Wallstreet" this is by far and away the best.

 

[wallysb01]

The response time is ~2x worse than my late-2013 MBP 15". I have posted images proving such in the ghosting thread on this forum.

Right, a known issue effecting some users. You could probably exchange your machine and solve this. Mine doesn't have a problem. I've followed that thread and tried to recreate the problems seen, I can't do it.

Wifi 6 is very much the norm, and is available on almost all PC laptops released this year. I checked two ThinkPad P series laptops on Lenovo's site, they both have WiFi 6, as does the X1 Extreme Gen 2, the X1 Carbon Gen 6, the Dell XPS 13 and 15, Microsoft's Surface laptops, and so on. This has been widely reported even in overall positive MBP 16 reviews.

Yes, its in some, and a higher fraction of things coming out right now, but not all. Its also 2x2 for those wifi 6 machines I've seen, not 3x3 like that for the 802.11ac in the MacBook Pro. This really doesn't seem like a huge value add to me, but that's just MO.

Yes, I do find the logo annoying, enough to cover it with black tape. When I'm using my laptop, I want to be looking at the information on the screen, not being reminded that I am using an Apple product.

This is just weird and I'll stop talking about it. I don't even notice it. In most cases I can't really see it because the screen is bright and the logo isn't reflecting enough light to compete with it. Anyway, if this bugs you....Ok....

Actually, my machine from 2013 is pretty darn great, especially from a value perspective. You can pick one up used for ~$1000. It has an amazing keyboard with excellent key travel, a full row of function keys, and no usability issues at all. The trackpad is essentially perfect in every way, it's the right size, it feels nice to the touch, and there's enough space around it to rest fingers or palms. It's a 6-core machine and almost as fast as the 2019 laptops for most purposes (according to my real use tests, anyway). It has a high DPI, fast, 15.6" screen. It has a 1TB SSD which is more than enough for what I need. I just wish I could upgrade it from 16GB to 32GB of RAM, that's my only complaint, but again, thanks to Apple's "soldered components" policy, I can't.

Look, I had the 2014 in the nearly maxed out configuration. If that battery wasn't a problem and 16GB of ram wasn't starting to become an issue, I'd have used it until the CPU fried a hole in the mobo. I get it, I do. But no, you aren't going to get a similarly specced laptop to the $4K MacBook Pro for $1600. Maybe the Lenovo P machines will start around there, but by the time you add in the specs to match you're at ~3K or more, with the crazy discounts they have going right now.

Perfectly possible, it seems to be from an early batch (panel A02). However, I didn't expect to pay almost $4K and receive a bad unit. I expected Apple to have better quality control.

All companies get a bum unit or two now and then. Especially early in a release. You're taking a bit of risk when you jump in this early, no matter how much you paid.

Here are my benchmarks, compiling and building a Flutter app. These are best times from 3-4 consecutive clean builds. The 2013 laptop cost roughly the same amount back then as the 2019 today, but had only 16GB compared to 32GB I have on the MBP 16". The desktop machine has an i9-9900K and 32GB.

iOS build:

• Late-2013 MBP: 135.9s
• MBP 16": 106.4s (28% faster)
• Desktop: 66.3s (105% faster)

Android build:

• Late-2013 MBP: 219.4s
• MBP 16": 175.6s (25% faster)
• Desktop: 109.3s (101% faster)

I'm not entirely sure why the desktop is so much faster, but the build is limited by single-core performance and thermal throttling, so I suspect it's a combination of the higher single-core clock speed and more efficient cooling.

I don't really know what to make of this. Its just so far off of everything we know from standardized benchmarks. I don't know if you have some weird set up or if its some strange app specific issue. I suggest you test your machine using some common benchmarks and maybe look into if there are ways you can optimize your app. There is no way a 9900K vs 9980HK (assuming you got the 2.4 i9 in this a $4K model) should be that far apart on something that only takes a minute to do.

Easy, you could buy a Dell XPS 15 or Lenovo X1 Extreme Gen 2 with a 4K screen in one of the recent Black Friday or Cyber Monday sales. Just don't spec it out with 32GB RAM and a 2TB SSD, etc., instead get the least RAM and disk the manufacturer offers, and upgrade them yourself (this is trivially easy, on the Lenovo laptops it can be done with nothing more than a Philips screwdriver). I priced it out, it came to around $1600 total at the time, if you offset the money you get back from selling the original RAM and SSD. But prices fluctuate so it might have been a lucky week. And by the way, the Dell and Lenovo models can be shipped with a beautiful true 4K OLED screen, all of them have WiFi 6, and they include all the ports you could ever want. Not to mention that the Lenovo at least (not sure about the Dell) is half a pound lighter. So arguably, they are not just "equivalently specced", they are higher specced.
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No way. First lets at least use education pricing for the MacBook Pro, since that often matches sale prices, or close to it. So, I configure the 2.3 i9 (X1 extreme gen 2 doesn't offer the 2.4), 32GB of RAM, 2TB SSD and its $3319. The X1 Extreme Gen 2 just with the screen (4K non-touch) and the 2.3 i9 is $2147. Now, you need to buy 32GB of RAM and a 2TB SSD. But you can't just add the cheapest SSD you find. That's not what's in Apple machines. A good 2TB nvme m.2 sdd adds $250. The Samsung 970 evo 2TB was recently on sale for $400. 32GB of reputable RAM would come to ~$120. So you're at around $2700. And now you want to sell your 8GB stick and 256GB SSD... have fun. Something coming out of a machine without packaging, no assurance its working or will work for long, etc., isn't going to fetch much. Then you have your time. Extra shopping, extra selling, and some time digging in the machine. Further, what happens when you have a problem. Lenovo is going to know your OS isn't on their disk and that's not their RAM.... better put those originals back in and then recreate the problem.... so, better not to sell and now you get to fight with Lenovo, Samsung and Crucial, for example, about who's really at fault for a problem. That's not something everyone wants to do. And for $600, is it worth the headache of all these gyrations of the DIY upgrades and now partially supported computer? I say no. $600 isn't very many hours of my time.

Also, all those laptops come with windows. Windows 10 has gotten better, but no OS holds a candle to macOS in my book. You can have your USB-A ports or OLEDs that will get some mad burn in. I'll take UNIX and a reliable, high quality LCD with more resolution than I can use anyway.

It definitely depends on your workload. Certainly Cinebench R20 and Geekbench scores are much higher on my 2019 compared to the 2013 (roughly a factor of two). However, I don't do much rendering or other graphics work, I don't play games on my laptop, and I really just don't use the GPU much. Nor does my usage pattern require many cores. Mostly I am doing Xcode or gradle builds, and for those specific tasks, there doesn't seem to be enough of an improvement to justify putting up with the other issues I have with the laptop.

I tested IntelliJ autocomplete responsiveness too, and found the same, only a ~20% improvement over my 2013 model. That kind of workload is also single-core dominated.

With only a 20%+ improvement, I'd have to think the code hasn't been optimized for modern instruction sets. So, yeah, your point that things are workflow dependent is always true. You unfortunately seem to be stuck in a spot where the tools you're using aren't keeping up with the modern age both by not finding ways to multithread nor maybe by taking advantage of other improvements. I can understand the frustration if that's the case, but maybe you shouldn't blame the machine, rather your tools. All those Lenovo or Dell machines are likely to have this same problem should you switch to them.

 

[profcutter]

Hah, as it turns out, I did misread the original complaint. Never mind and carry on. Now who feels silly? This guy.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Hah, as it turns out, I did misread the original complaint. Never mind and carry on. Now who feels silly? This guy.

Well, there you go. Blingy advertising logos annoy me no matter whether they are illuminated or not, no matter whether they are on the back of the screen where they can be seen by the public, or on the front of the screen where they can be seen 100% of the time by me and by anyone sitting next to me or looking over my shoulder. That's one of the great things about the 2012-2015 (apparently) MBP laptops.

I don't feel silly. However, I am insulted on behalf of both genders that you assumed I am male!

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Maybe the Lenovo P machines will start around there, but by the time you add in the specs to match you're at ~3K or more, with the crazy discounts they have going right now.

As pointed out in an earlier post, you can do it for *much* cheaper than 3K by upgrading the RAM and SSD yourself, something you can do with most PC laptops, but cannot currently do with any MacBook.

For example, Apple charges $600 for the 2TB SSD upgrade. You can buy a Sabrent 2TB NVMe SSD for $250 and sell a 512GB SSD for $70, so an equivalent upgrade to a PC laptop can be done for $180.

Apple charges $400 for the 32GB RAM upgrade, from 16GB. You can buy 32GB DDR4 2666MHz RAM for $115 and sell 16GB for around $70, so that upgrade should cost $35.

So we've just saved $420 + $365 = $785 on upgrades alone. But those upgrade prices are on top of an already very high base price. During a good sale, the Lenovos start around $1200. The base MBP 16" will set you back $2400, a full $1200 more. $1200 + $785 = $1985.

Yes, Lenovo and Dell overcharge for upgrades too, but the point is, their machines are user upgradeable so a smart buyer can do it themselves, to save money.

 

[49erRedGold]

I don't feel silly. However, I am insulted on behalf of both genders that you assumed I am male!

Pretty sure that poster you're quoting was referring to himself. Seems like a lot of misreading posts are happening around here.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

I suggest you test your machine using some common benchmarks and maybe look into if there are ways you can optimize your app. There is no way a 9900K vs 9980HK (assuming you got the 2.4 i9 in this a $4K model) should be that far apart on something that only takes a minute to do.

There are lots of reasons why a desktop would be faster than a laptop, even with the same "notional" CPU. The TDP of a laptop is never going to match that of a desktop. Laptop RAM is slower than desktop RAM. Motherboard design and chipsets make trade-offs for laptops. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself could list many other reasons, too. How much impact each factor has will vary from task to task. I'd guess Xcode builds are dominated by single-core performance, memory bandwidth, and I/O bandwidth.
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And for $600, is it worth the headache of all these gyrations of the DIY upgrades and now partially supported computer? I say no. $600 isn't very many hours of my time.

Sure, it's definitely an individual choice, and depends on one's comfort level with performing such upgrades and the various risks involved. For me it would be a no brainer - I think the risks are minimal and the cost savings are huge - although I would obviously test the machine thoroughly first before going ahead, in case there was a manufacturing fault that needed attention.
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The sheer idiocy of the train of thought or lack thereof in some of these posts is mind boggling.

Keep it civil. We are all human. If you disagree, would it be possible for you to disagree in a polite and constructive fashion?

 

[profcutter]

Yeah, I made no assumptions about anyone’s gender other than my own.

 

[CloudsNeverDie]

Yeah, I made no assumptions about anyone’s gender other than my own.

Many thanks, and my apologies I will leave my gender unspecified.

 

[Nacho98]

Keep it civil. We are all human. If you disagree, would it be possible for you to disagree in a polite and constructive fashion?

Here's constructive criticism - you REALLY need to re-read the prior page of the thread CLOSELY, post by post, and understand the dialogue. Everyone seems to be understanding the chain of conversation in this thread except you, in numerous places on the last page. Seriously, please read carefully before you quote people and say something that makes absolutely no sense. You've done this several times on the prior page of this thread.