Rumour-busting: The Mac Mini as an HTPC

[dh2005]

Tilpots;

Firstly; I already have a Blu-ray player. Secondly; we don't have Wal Mart in this country. A bold attempt at humour, nonetheless.


It's at this point that I wonder whether you're being deliberately obtuse, or whether you lack the knowledge to compete in this debate. Or even, both.

For clarity purposes... I don't want to run Blu-ray disc structures. I know Macs can't do this (I gleaned this knowledge from "research"). I want to run the video and audio streams taken from a Blu-ray disc. And the Mac Mini can't do it; not because of licencing decisions made by Apple, but because it isn't powerful enough.

If you'd like this proven to you beyond doubt; now that H.264 hardware-decoding has been introduced in Plex, Blu-ray-derived .MKVs comprising this video codec now run significantly better than they used to. Thus, it will be seen that the Mini can run HD video codecs that come from Blu-ray discs; just not as well as more powerful media devices.

My mini has no problems with the 1080p content I play on it. All of that content is pre-ripped and encoded, however. As far as a 1080p HTPC, it works just fine for me (as did my last mini running 720p).

Great. You're happy with it, I have no personal disagreement with you.

But the compromises required to use the Mini as an HTPC are not universally acceptable. A lot of people take grave exception to transcoding; not only because of the audio and video degradation, but also the ridiculous amount of time it takes.

I have 120 Blu-ray rips, all at 1080p. Going by an estimate in one of Tilpot's links, it takes over four hours to transcode one 1080p rip with Handbrake; it would therefore take me 500 hours to crap all over my Blu-ray collection.

Not for me, thanks.

 

[flopticalcube]

But your thread title and opening post are purposely inflammatory. You started this thread as "Rumor Busting" but as you admit, its simply a case of not working for your own purposes. You could have had a lot more help and useful suggestions if you approached from a more neutral stance. There is no need to be so negatively aggressive in your approach.

 

[Aegelward]

Don't use Plex, they are using a completely outdated fork of XBMC, and they haven't updated the code since last year.

Instead use the mainstream XBMC or Boxee, who maintain a closer relationship to the core XBMC than the Plex guys do.

It's of note that the next version of XBMC will support hardware accelerated playback if your lucky enough to have a mini with a 9400 or above video card.

 

[dh2005]

But your thread title and opening post are purposely inflammatory. You started this thread as "Rumor Busting" but as you admit, its simply a case of not working for your own purposes. You could have had a lot more help and useful suggestions if you approached from a more neutral stance. There is no need to be so negatively aggressive in your approach.

Pardon me for saying so - you've been polite to me, and I would like to extend you the same courtesy - but I feel there's an imbalance around here that needs to be addressed. As things stand right now, people are getting crap advice.

With the predominant pro-Mac bias of this forum, it'd probably take something inflammatory to attract any attention; and, be fair, how inflammatory have I really been? The substance of what I've written is, predominantly, very courteous. Where I haven't been completely courteous, I will not apologise, because frankly, I'm a little pissed-off.

With regards to neutrality; I didn't notice the people of this forum advising me to buy the Mini with the 'neutral' courtesy that you're asking of me, now. When I asked, "is the Mac Mini a fully 1080p-capable HTPC?", they didn't say, "well, yes, if you're willing to transcode your HD streams". They said simply, "yes". And that's not entirely honest.

The worst that anybody can say about me is that I've been slightly inflammatory. I could level at the people who advised me earlier in the year that they had a hand in me buying a computer that wasn't suitable for my needs. That's far worse.


I understand that we're Mac-owners, but that doesn't mean that we're blind to the limitations of our machines.

Don't use Plex, they are using a completely outdated fork of XBMC, and they haven't updated the code since last year.

Instead use the mainstream XBMC or Boxee, who maintain a closer relationship to the core XBMC than the Plex guys do.

It's of note that the next version of XBMC will support hardware accelerated playback if your lucky enough to have a mini with a 9400 or above video card.

Thanks. I'll look into that.

 

[Tilpots]

I posted two threads of the proper steps to playing Blu-ray content on your Mini. If you're not following these steps, than I'm not surprised your having issues.

Also, you should've posted this in the AppleTV/Home Theater section.

 

[dh2005]

The threads you directed me to are not suitable for my needs. I have explained this, in words of few syllables, already.

And my contention is with the specification of the Mac Mini, and the claims that were made to me in this same section of the forum, a few months ago. A reply to these claims belongs in the same place.


For the record; you do yourself no favours by being so belligerent. I've not had a cross word to say to the half-dozen people who have responded to me more pleasantly.

 

[Tilpots]

The threads you directed me to are not suitable for my needs. I have explained this, in words of few syllables, already.

And my contention is with the specification of the Mac Mini, and the claims that were made to me in this same section of the forum, a few months ago. A reply to these claims belongs in the same place.


For the record; you do yourself no favours by being so belligerent. I've not had a cross word to say to the half-dozen people who have responded to me more pleasantly.

I'm not sure how directing you to the appropriate threads, and those are the appropriate threads for a Mini HTPC user, is considered belligerent. I did have a sarcastic comment after you dismissed my initial help offering, so if you're upset with me, than OK, I apologize.

Can you point me to the thread you're referring to so I may evaluate the discussion for myself? I run a Mini HTPC set up and have looked at hundreds of threads regarding it's uses. I can't think of a single one that has given false or misleading information, that has at least not been corrected by a user in the same thread. All the advice and information I have gathered has so far worked flawlessly.

 

[dh2005]

Fine. Apology accepted. And thank you.


Umm, let me see what I can find... as I recall, some of it was from a thread of my own, some of it was in someone else's thread (he was asking a similar question), and some of it was discussed in PMs that I've already deleted. But even if I still had them, I wouldn't call-out anyone by name, because I think that would be an unreasonable personal attack. That's not an excuse. I know who one of them is, for certain; and, if he's reading this thread, he'll know that I'm talking about him...!

But seriously; I'm not looking to hold anyone personally responsible for my purchase. Really, all I'm doing is communicating that people with the same expectations of an HTPC as me would be bitterly disappointed with the current Mac Mini. Coming from media streamers that don't cost half the price of a Mini, when I saw how HD-incapable the Mini was, I couldn't believe my eyes. My first thoughts were, "well, I must've set this up wrongly...", but then, when I couldn't find any settings to change, I got cross pretty quickly.


Please don't think that I'm saying, "the Mac Mini is a completely bloody useless HTPC". I'm not. I'm sure it does a sound job of standard definition content; and, if you're willing to transcode, I don't doubt that you'll get something workable of an HD variety also... but for nobody to mention that HD content needs to be processed through Handbrake?! I must've spoken to ten people about it.

 

[trance2]

Hello folks,

I've been away for a while. I'm sure you've missed me.

Four months into owning a 2.53GHz/4GB RAM Mini, and all is well. But there's one thing over which I feel slightly cheated; not cheated by Apple, but by the online Mac community.

When deciding on the Mini, one of the things that took my attention was the swell of posts telling me, "and the Mac Mini's an awesome 1080p HTPC, too...!". Either I'm doing something wrong, or that's a load of bulls**t.

I'm a Beta-tester for the Popcorn Hour C-200 media streamer, and sometimes the latest Beta crocks my machine and I can't use it. This happened to me two weeks ago, and I decided to switch to using the Mini as my media device until the C-200's firmware got fixed. I tried to play a 1080p .MKV of The Men Who Stare at Goats (not exactly Avatar...), and the playback was completely unwatchable. Stuttering, smearing, audio-dropout... useless garbage.

And yes, the .MKV itself is fine.

I followed an online guide to download Plex, which I understand is a modification of XBMC. The guide (two of them, actually) said that Plex could run 1080p .MKVs... so, what gives? Have I been lied to, or have I missed something?

Thanks in advance,



DH.

I am going to take the bait...

I have been lurking on this thread and see a problem here and I feel the need to respond. You are making an accusation that the Mac mini is not a capable HTPC. You also state that your MKV is perfectly fine, what evidence do you have to back up that claim?

The Plex/XMBC community is filled with very talented and smart folks who everyday use their code and technology to help others enjoy a HTPC made with common hardware. Making the accusation that the forum posters are lying is very bold. I for one don't like being called a liar and I am sure many others don't either. Other than rant and complain about how your files aren't working why not assist in finding out why? Saying your file is perfectly fine is a statement that no one else here in this forum can prove, only you can do that... now I am beginning thinking you are lying to us.

The Mac mini that you purchased is very capable of 1080p playback regardless of the h.264 hardware accelerator enabled or not. In doing some research prior to posting I looked at the Plexapp wikipedia.org entry. Under the "Limitations" section it states:

Plex does not support any hardware accelerated video decoding and thus depends soley on the system's CPU for all video and audio decoding; which means that users require at least a 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 processor to decode 1080p videos encoded with the H.264 codec even at low-bitrate, and 2GHz Intel Core 2 processor or better for perfect playback of high-bitrate H.264 videos in native 1080p resolution, such as Blu-ray movies (as they are encoded with level 4.1 profile by standard).

Please remember, we are here to help each other, be constructive and allow us to help you. A bad attitude will get you no where... but to sum it all up, check your encoding method, perhaps you are not ripping/encoding/packaging correctly.

 

[dh2005]

That's too paranoid and bewildering to reply to in the time that I have. I'll get back to you tomorrow morning.

 

[archipellago]

the OP seems very clear to me.

The mini cannot play TRUE HD 1080p rips in any form of watchable speed, but it can play downgraded 1080p content.

no surprise here, Apple hardware is overpriced junk in more ways than one.

 

[dh2005]

I am going to take the bait...

I have been lurking on this thread and see a problem here and I feel the need to respond. You are making an accusation that the Mac mini is not a capable HTPC. You also state that your MKV is perfectly fine, what evidence do you have to back up that claim?

The Plex/XMBC community is filled with very talented and smart folks who everyday use their code and technology to help others enjoy a HTPC made with common hardware. Making the accusation that the forum posters are lying is very bold. I for one don't like being called a liar and I am sure many others don't either. Other than rant and complain about how your files aren't working why not assist in finding out why? Saying your file is perfectly fine is a statement that no one else here in this forum can prove, only you can do that... now I am beginning thinking you are lying to us.

The Mac mini that you purchased is very capable of 1080p playback regardless of the h.264 hardware accelerator enabled or not. In doing some research prior to posting I looked at the Plexapp wikipedia.org entry. Under the "Limitations" section it states:

Plex does not support any hardware accelerated video decoding and thus depends soley on the system's CPU for all video and audio decoding; which means that users require at least a 1.6GHz Intel Core 2 processor to decode 1080p videos encoded with the H.264 codec even at low-bitrate, and 2GHz Intel Core 2 processor or better for perfect playback of high-bitrate H.264 videos in native 1080p resolution, such as Blu-ray movies (as they are encoded with level 4.1 profile by standard).

Please remember, we are here to help each other, be constructive and allow us to help you. A bad attitude will get you no where... but to sum it all up, check your encoding method, perhaps you are not ripping/encoding/packaging correctly.

Right. Where to start...?


What evidence do I have that the .MKV is fine? It works flawlessly on the Popcorn A-100; a $100, 300MHz media streamer notorious for rejecting crappy encodes on account of having no processing headroom. If you'd like harder evidence, I can't help you; as distribution of the .MKV would be a crime.

The Plex/XBMC community are, indeed, good souls doing excellent work. I never said otherwise.

I never called you a liar, nor anyone else by name. Nor did I suggest that everyone posting on the forum was a liar... and by suggesting that I am a liar specifically, you immediately forfeit all moral high-ground in this particular part of the discussion.

The information you've quoted from the Wiki is a wooden lie. I have a Mini of a better standard than that and, with software acceleration, the playback performance of 1080p Blu-ray is dreadful. What they call a "high bitrate", I call garbage. If the link provided by another poster earlier is to be believed, you need to set Handbrake to encode to an average of 14Mbps when processing a 1080p Blu-ray rip; that same $100 media streamer can pull-out 42Mbps sustained, and cope with peaks of higher than that. What the Mac Mini seems to say to me is, "yeah, I can do that too... provided you throw most of the data away".

As for my manner; how would you feel if someone talked you into spending a ton of money on something that didn't work? Might you not have a slightly "bad attitude", also? Or would you turn the other cheek, like Our Lord Jesus Christ...?



I'm no s**t-stirrer. I encourage everybody to look at some of the posts I've put here since Day 1; you'll see that I was a very willing Mac Evangelist. And ya know what? Substantially, I am still. I like the Mini, in many respects...

... but enough of this crap about it being an ideal HTPC. It isn't. I'm sure it's great if you run only SD content, and/or if you don't mind stripping your HD rips. But many people who are passionate about their movie-playback will not tolerate those compromises.


I don't think anyone's "lying", in the coldest sense of the word. I just think they're "making the best of it" - exaggerating the capabilities of the Mini because they care about the brand, and they want it to succeed. And ya know what? I understand. But I'm still a bit pissed. And the bias needs correcting.

 

[ljonesj]

Have you ever thought that maybe your mac mini may be the problem like something is hardware wrong like maybe its faulty i have played versions of blu ray rips the way u encode them and mine plays them fine so take your mini to apple and see if you have a bad one or whats your specs of your mini

 

[dh2005]

Thank you for your thoughts. Can I ask what Blu-ray ripping process you're using?

I have the same Mini as yours, by the looks of things. And it hasn't really underperformed in any other department - I'm on record as saying that the games performance of the Mini has pleasantly surprised me - so, honestly, I don't think there's anything wrong with the hardware.

If Plex and others continue to mobilise hardware acceleration for other codecs, in time, maybe this thing will be useful to me. I remember NVidia talking-up the 9400M as the core for a budget HTPC... but, for now, I have to say to other consumers; don't believe the hype.


I'm not trying to upset anybody. I'm just saying it how I see it.

 

[ljonesj]

i use handbrake but i do have other devices that require that i use the presets so that may be the reason it works so well. The reason i change the presets is i want the best look for a certain movie vs its mb size for the touch.
i have also heard that if you go to a ssd drive it really makes the thing zip so maybe if you go that route you may actually get your humongous rips working as i say that blu ray rip of yours is close 8- 10 gigs of space per movie

 

[dh2005]

I'm grateful for your comments mate, but I say again for clarification; I do not use Handbrake, and I don't want to transcode.


I rip my Blu-rays with AnyDVD HD, I use one of three methods to compile a single lossless .M2TS file, then I put that into an .MKV wrapper using MakeMKV. To be honest, the final step is pretty redundant - the results are the same, running the .M2TS by itself. These files are anything between 15 and 40GB in size.

I think the key issue in this whole debate is that I expect a higher standard of performance - namely, true HD playback. Blu-ray is more than five years old, now. If a computer can't run Blu-ray video as is, I really think it's pushing its luck to call itself an HTPC, in 2010. I'm sure others will disagree.

Those people advising me clearly assumed that a 50%+ lossy Blu-ray transcode was acceptable to me. This was an incorrect assumption, and I don't want other people buying the Mini thinking that it's better than it actually is.


I say again; I like the Mini in many respects, but it's really no great shakes as an HTPC.

 

[ljonesj]

well u do trans code anything that takes something and places it on the hard drive is trans coding as your taking the blu ray and putting to your format and you can still lower the size of the file and not lose the integrity of your file

 

[dh2005]

I don't change the nature of the video/audio data, mate. It's a straight copy. That's not a transcode.

Putting an .M2TS into an .MKV isn't a transcode, either. It doesn't change the streams; it puts them into a container, as is.

 

[Cave Man]

But I rip all my HD stuff from my own Blu-ray discs, and I refuse to re-encode. Maybe this is my problem.

Do you extract the AC3 or DTS cores with tsmuxer or some other software?

Did you try the hardware accelerated version of Plex?

That's unlikely to work with straight Blu-ray rips because most of those h.264 encodes do not use the h.264 decoding scheme of Apple's API.

 

[dh2005]

I dont extract any audio cores, mate. I take the data from the disc, completely as is. The HD audio streams.

 

[Cave Man]

I dont extract any audio cores, mate. I take the data from the disc, completely as is. The HD audio streams.

I'm pretty certain that's the problem. Have a read here about my experiences with my MacBook Air. The problem isn't the video of the Blu-ray disc, it's the audio. Since the 9400m does not have audio over displayport (it's not disabled, it simply isn't there) the Mini cannot passthrough HD audio (the Mini's optical port can only passthrough compressed 5.1) and without a hardware audio decoder (which all set-top Blu-ray Disc players have for their analog audio ports) the Mac software has to extract the AC3 or DTS cores on the fly while also decoding the compressed video. This is an extremely cpu-intensive task and is what both Plex and XBMC do. My quad-core hackintosh can do this just fine, but it puts it under quite a bit of load.

If you have or plan to buy a receiver capable of HD audio (True-HD or DTS-HD) then you're better off getting a dedicated disc player (which of course obviates the convenience of a file-based HTPC system). I'm sure the next Mini revision will have audio over displayport (since the Mini is a repackaged MacBook - which just got audio over displayport); however, until the software (e.g., Plex, XBMC) catches up and can passthrough True-HD and DTS-HD AND you have a receiver capable of decoding those, then we'll still be in the same boat - the cpu requirement for extracting AC3 and DTS on the fly. Perhaps an i-series cpu (dual core, hyperthreading) could do it, but I couldn't say without trying one out.

For me, I'm now using Make MKV to repackage the video with AC3 or DTS cores in an mkv container. I've listened to both HD audio and compressed audio (i.e., AC3 or DTS) and my ears can't tell the difference. But I'm sure some people can. Every Blu-ray disc that I have has been rewrapped into mkv, ts or m2ts containers without transcoded video and with AC3 or DTS and my 2 gHz Core 2 Duo Mini plays all of them with only a few dropped frames at the very beginning of playback using Plex. Plus, those repackaged files are several gigabytes smaller.

 

[Aegelward]

Playing devil's advocate...

Thought about trying windows?

The drivers for hardware acceleration of video are far more mature.

 

[flopticalcube]

Would a USB+MDP->HDMI adapter solve the issue since it can do uncompressed audio across the USB?

 

[Pachang]

I don't mean to insult you, but you've completely misdiagnosed the issue at hand. I don't have a problem; it's the Mac Mini that has a problem.

given the information that dual 2.5ghz is easily enough to decode h.264 @ 1080p (IF ENCODED CORRECTLY).

how did you come to conclusion that it was the mini's fault rather than your encoding?

 

[ljonesj]

Well he says he does no transcoding as he wants true hd but he puts that huge file into a mkv container along with his audio and that file is huge he says its like 40 gigs worth which makes me wonder does he stream that file to the mini or has it on the drive itself this seems like really huge file for any thing to play straight