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Should I leave apple ecosystem in light of CSAM?
- Thread starter wirtandi
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The problem IMO with your posts is you are doing the opposite.
I have questions. Apple answered very few. So I went digging getting information form professionals in security and privacy. The more I dug, the more I discovered that Apple is not placing “privacy” at the forefront like they have been claiming. Shame on me for not doing this sooner.
You on the other hand appear to take Apple at what it says and are willing to hope for the best and wait till after this launches or Apple gives some more information.
My top questions:
1. How are you going to prevent repurposing of this system? You can’t “just say no” and “follow the law”.
2. Why such a high threshold for notification? This “30” indicates a potential serious concern with the incidence of false positives.
3. Why is Apple sticking itself in the middle (verification at 30) instead of just handing it over to NCMEC who deal with this?
4. A second source for verification of a match comes from where? CSAM databases are shared globally (source ICMEC).
5. Why no notification to the user regarding matches at all?
6. Why on the device instead of server side when server side is a better option to clean the iCloud up?
7. Is this a real system to be launched or is this just a pr move?
Lot’s more. Apple half assed answered a couple of these built even those answers have gaps.
Note: I have been phasing out my Apple stuff for the last year + for other reasons.
Wrong, all the others scan their servers. Apple wants to scan and invade your personal device.
That is nothing but telemetry to see how the system is running. Apple does the very same thing. There is no personal information given in the telemetry. What Apple is doing is personal. It tracks on device, identifies you, and will report you if it finds something it thinks is suspicious.Are you serious?
21 Windows 10 Privacy Settings to Change: Reclaim Your Privacy
Learn how to lock down your Windows 10 computer to maintain your privacy. We show you the top settings to change and how to do it.pixelprivacy.com
This is a flat out lie... Are you being sarcastic? Microsoft does not scan Word files and delete topics they don't like.
I dont really get why they are doing it on device either. They say they only scanning content bring uploaded to iCloud, hence why toggling iCloud photos off allegedly allows you to opt out of scanning. So why bulk up iOS with this stuff, and use iOS device processor cycles, when they can do it more efficiently at the cloud level?
Apple did not "create" the system. It has been around for a while, others just refused to implement it.
Yes, you made it up, going to far as to say they will delete things they don't like in Word. OneDrive like all other cloud based services is voluntary. You don't have to use it. But yes, they will scan their servers for CSAM.
I'm unwilling to give up freedom for the sake of technology, so I guess I'll have to do w/o the tech.
You're not really giving up any freedoms, per se. Maybe some privacy. But that cuts to the heart of the argument: Many people, myself included, thought they could trust Apple with information they would otherwise be unwilling to share, because Apple made a big deal about being customer privacy-oriented. This on-device scanner was felt by many of those people to be a betrayal of that trust. Yes: I'm one of them.
Plus, many people, and I'm among them, too, when they began looking into Apple's real track record, vis-a-vis privacy, found their record really wasn't as good as Apple would have you believe. Better than Google or Facebook, to be sure. But that's a pretty low bar
The only people on MR that have any ability to suppress posts, informative or otherwise, are site staff. Are you suggesting MR has been doing that?
Not really. Not that I've seen.
Apple did not create CSAM, but they have created their own on-device implementation that interfaces with a CSAM database to identify positive matches. People have to trust it works the way it is described by Apple, and even then a lot of people don't seem very happy with it.
iPhones have specialized processing hardware for this sort of thing, rather than using CPU cycles. It's probably super efficient.
Though I'm opposed to the scanning for other reasons.
Seems easy to prove or disprove Microsoft deleting documents containing opinions they disagree with. Lemme go write a doc...
I don't mind being a conspiracy theorist if respectable security researchers are too.
haha indeed."Edward Snowden is fake news". Btw has anyone noticed a bunch of "new" people on these threads that aggressively ask the same boring questions as a bunch of other accounts did a month ago? Just seems curious, I guess people don't stay up on Apple stuff and just dive in a month later.
Y’all have made extensive hay over this (and on the other five threads cited on the first page) about whether the software and subsequent technologies for client-side scanning (CSS) and cloud/server-side scanning (CSSS) is “fair” or “just” or a violation of fundamental human rights — whether it’s Apple, Facebook, or even the People’s Republic of China.
I’ve never really been moved by these questions, because I already grasp their implications for both the near- and far-term. The “CSAM” angle is but one inflammatory and populist diversion away from the heart of all this.
The questions I have are far more fundamental. They’re questions whose examinations will outlast the technology itself. With exception to the last, they’re questions which folks either treat as irrelevant or are loath to explore for what may come forth. They’re questions which both precede and will outlive the software delivering this technology.
A few:
Within this forum, I don’t really expect meaningful discussions to come from confronting these kinds of questions. These are, nevertheless, the kinds of questions I am constantly left pondering whenever the topic of voluntary or compulsory CSS and CSSS (as deployed by major entities to which many of y’all are subject), gets rehashed, ad infinitum, in circular sparring debates (i.e., distractions) which have no end.
I’ve never really been moved by these questions, because I already grasp their implications for both the near- and far-term. The “CSAM” angle is but one inflammatory and populist diversion away from the heart of all this.
The questions I have are far more fundamental. They’re questions whose examinations will outlast the technology itself. With exception to the last, they’re questions which folks either treat as irrelevant or are loath to explore for what may come forth. They’re questions which both precede and will outlive the software delivering this technology.
A few:
- What drives a software developer to invent and develop content-scanning code in the first place? Of all the innovations to come from writing code, what motivated or pressed them to devote labour and thought to this particular area of software-based technology?
- What motivates — or presses — a tech Goliath to reach for that invention to deploy and integrate at a macro scale?
- With historical hindsight to leaven the analysis, to what ends do those technologies serve the bottom lines of a giant entity employing this technology? What does this entity hope to acquire in the very end?
- As just one tool of digital surveillance, how else may a tech giant (whether a corporation, a country, or other macro-scale entity) wish to deploy that technology henceforth? To what ends? Under what regulatory oversight?
Within this forum, I don’t really expect meaningful discussions to come from confronting these kinds of questions. These are, nevertheless, the kinds of questions I am constantly left pondering whenever the topic of voluntary or compulsory CSS and CSSS (as deployed by major entities to which many of y’all are subject), gets rehashed, ad infinitum, in circular sparring debates (i.e., distractions) which have no end.
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And then what, move over to Android? You do realise that Google scans everything for years already since all your data is automagically online? I don't agree with Apple's technocratic approach either, but I maintain hope they wisen up to the emotional reactions people are showing. Trusting Google, Amazon, Microsoft or Facebook to do any better seems a bit naive to me.
... but they do pull all your data online, and then scan.
Do the same digging on their competition and I think you'll find the grass isn't even growing on the other side. Always good to approach everything with a bit of skepticism. I read their published material, I researched the organizations that deal with the content and manage the databases, and I remembered who has the most open gov't contracts (not Apple). I also read information published by security and privacy gurus, but always with the question of what would they stand to gain by supporting one side versus the other. I do think Apple botched this reveal and were counting on a much different public reaction, it was good comedy.
1. We're the user so we cannot prevent that unless we somehow gain control of those databases. If you're so inclined, become an employee to help maintain oversight.
2 & 3. I haven't seen the reasoning behind the data threshold, possibly from studies behind pinterest/instagram parents versus pedophiles and their devices. 🤷♂️ Maybe Apple doesn't want to over burden NCMEC with potential false positives so they act as a middle man to limit backlogs. My guess is that when Apple did in transit encrypting the CSAM hits were reduced and that raised flags with the NCMEC who probably reached out to Apple to find a middle ground solution. NCMEC End to End Encryption Statement
4. Shared globally yes, but each organization/agency can weigh in to help ascertain validity like a second or third opinion from doctors.
5. You don't notify a criminal they're about to be caught for doing whatever illegal activity it is so they have time to destroy evidence.
6. You can't compare hashes on encrypted data at the server level, the photos are encrypted in transit so it would have to be on device scanning to do the comparison. Server side would require unencrypted data transfers to the server and your privacy and security experts would agree that is a terrible idea. Keeping the work on the device does help with end-user privacy.
7. It looks real at face value.
A totally acceptable choice you're currently allowed to make, and hopefully that choice is never forced for you later on down the road.
It may be just "some privacy" to you, but to others their location may be total privacy. To each their own. In terms of Apple versus the competition, I am turning more to Apple than my previous position of MS. I am just tired of MS's terrible OS. As an outsider looking in I liked how the ecosystem all worked together versus hunting down random drivers different versions of software. I will also never use an android device after having had to work with them in my previous job, buggy software, poor quality devices, and it's too open for my liking. YMMVYou're not really giving up any freedoms, per se. Maybe some privacy. But that cuts to the heart of the argument: Many people, myself included, thought they could trust Apple with information they would otherwise be unwilling to share, because Apple made a big deal about being customer privacy-oriented. This on-device scanner was felt by many of those people to be a betrayal of that trust. Yes: I'm one of them.
Plus, many people, and I'm among them, too, when they began looking into Apple's real track record, vis-a-vis privacy, found their record really wasn't as good as Apple would have you believe. Better than Google or Facebook, to be sure. But that's a pretty low bar
Yes, anything that detracts from their stovepipe of ideas and feelings. You can also suppress posts by burying them under more posts that scream counter ideas, not everyone peruses each thread so if you can hide the informative post with group think it accomplishes the same thing albeit less effective as removal.
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I hear you, but "probably super efficient" doesn't fill me with huge amounts of confidence.
There's going to be some hit on your battery anyway, obviously moreso if you make extensive use of iCloud Photos.
For others feeling trapped without a way out from Apple, open source like Linux is a promising option. Open source needs your support and donations to improve, but is a viable alternative long term. I just bought a System76 laptop, and you can also check out Purism as well.
No I didn’t make it up, it’s literally in their terms of service when you sign up. Saying “nuh uh” without actually doing any research whatsoever is incredibly silly. I don’t make things up for internet points. They are scanning all of your documents looking for things that sound like potential violence and they are also scanning for CSAM, which is already known they’ve been doing that for almost a decade. They scan everything in OneDrive looking for particular things and they will remove and report content if it is violation of their TOS. If you want to remain blissfully ignorant that’s on you. Some of you guys need to wake up to what’s actually happening. It’s not conspiracy theories.
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Trust is a hard thing to allocate when every other (who have shared their view) privacy and security firm, including some academics who actually built a very similar system are all against it and Apple is being very sparse with details.
Trust but verify. At this time I have no way of verifying.