Should I leave apple ecosystem in light of CSAM?

[MadeTheSwitch]

I don't understand why people are so against scanning the cloud. What do they have to hide? Worried that Apple might find existing CSAM in iCloud?

I don’t care if they scan their own servers, it’s their property. I just don’t want the hardware > I < own to be scanned. That’s just creepy and Orwellian to me. I don’t want spy software installed on my devices. Not even from Apple. I don’t want to take any hit to battery life or storage either. Not even a little bit.

And again, I will reiterate what I said earlier: Customers were not asking for this. I don’t think it’s right for a company to put some sort of spyware on a device anymore than it was okay to force a U2 album on everyone’s device.

It’s the principle of the whole thing. It just doesn’t sit right with me. And the fact that there was even division internally within Apple itself, says to me that it’s probably something that shouldn’t be done. When even members of your own staff are uncomfortable with it, and it is causing controversy internally, that should be a red flag.

 

[usagora]

I don’t care if they scan their own servers, it’s their property. I just don’t want the hardware > I < own to be scanned. That’s just creepy and Orwellian to me. I don’t want spy software installed on my devices. Not even from Apple. I don’t want to take any hit to battery life or storage either. Not even a little bit.

Then simply don't use the service (iCloud) that involves moving your files to their property, and your files will remain unscanned (and even if they were, Apple can't see any of that). The battery life and storage objections are silly. First of all, again, if you don't upload photos to iCloud, the scanning isn't happening, so the battery impact is nil. As for storage, I'm not sure what the stats would be, but I doubt it's significant, and there are undoubtedly many parts of iOS that you don't use and can't uninstall that are taking up storage - I don't see you protesting that. You're just looking for excuses to "hate" on the CSAM scanning.

And again, I will reiterate what I said earlier: Customers were not asking for this. I don’t think it’s right for a company to put some sort of spyware on a device anymore than it was okay to force a U2 album on everyone’s device.

It's not spyware. This is a constant misrepresentation I keep seeing on this forum and clearly an attempt to emotionalize the issue instead of sticking with reason. Spyware, by definition, is installed in a surreptitious/deceptive manner. Someone intending to install spyware on your device doesn't announce their intentions - that sort of negates the whole "spy" part Just call it what it is - encrypted file scanning. Also, who cares if customers were asking for this or not? They have the option to not use iCloud to store their photos.

It’s the principle of the whole thing. It just doesn’t sit right with me. And the fact that there was even division internally within Apple itself, says to me that it’s probably something that shouldn’t be done. When even members of your own staff are uncomfortable with it, and it is causing controversy internally, that should be a red flag.

I'd like to see the stats on that in terms of percentage of employees for/against and how much knowledge each of them had with the development of the technology. Apple is a gigantic company, and obviously not every employee is knowledgeable about every aspect of what they have in development, especially if they're not even involved in any part of the development. Now, if you had a bunch of employees directly involved in the project that quit working on it due to personal objections, then that would actually be something newsworthy.

 

[dk001]

Spyware:

1. software (CSAM Checker)that enables a user (Apple) to obtain covert information (info the user doesn’t know) about another's computer (iPhone, iPad, Mac) activities (sending photos to iCloud) by transmitting data covertly from their hard drive.
   
   
   
   

 

[Jayson A]

Spyware:

1. software (CSAM Checker)that enables a user (Apple) to obtain covert information (info the user doesn’t know) about another's computer (iPhone, iPad, Mac) activities (sending photos to iCloud) by transmitting data covertly from their hard drive.
   
   
   

Data that you willing choose to upload to them.

 

[Shirasaki]

Microsoft even scans all of your word files and whatnot for topics they don't agree with and will even ban your account if you're writing about something against their beliefs.

Either google and Microsoft partner together to hide those cases or you just make sxxx up. All I can find are bans about Xbox account.

because apple DOES NOT have a back door.

Good, continue to believe so.
Otherwise define “back door”.

 

[danny842003]

I don’t care if they scan their own servers, it’s their property. I just don’t want the hardware > I < own to be scanned. That’s just creepy and Orwellian to me. I don’t want spy software installed on my devices. Not even from Apple. I don’t want to take any hit to battery life or storage either. Not even a little bit.

And again, I will reiterate what I said earlier: Customers were not asking for this. I don’t think it’s right for a company to put some sort of spyware on a device anymore than it was okay to force a U2 album on everyone’s device.

It’s the principle of the whole thing. It just doesn’t sit right with me. And the fact that there was even division internally within Apple itself, says to me that it’s probably something that shouldn’t be done. When even members of your own staff are uncomfortable with it, and it is causing controversy internally, that should be a red flag.

What’s the tangible difference between scanning a device which is connected to their server or scanning their server? Seems to be an identical end result.
If you’re not using their server they’re not scanning your device.

 

[Bandaman]

Either google and Microsoft partner together to hide those cases or you just make sxxx up. All I can find are bans about Xbox account.

It literally says it when you sign up for Microsoft 365 regarding what they scan for in OneDrive. I'm not making anything up. I don't make things up for giggles, it's important to be aware of what you're signing up for when you use a service.

 

[hot-gril]

It’s on device because apple DOES NOT have a back door. Instead it’s a reporting system. Before the data in encrypted and uploaded it compares hashes of known CSAM with your data.

Yes they do. They have always had the keys to all your iCloud data, including backups.
Backdoor is overly nefarious sounding for this, though. They actually need that kind of access for iCloud to even function, except for the backups, which they really don't need access to.

 

[Shirasaki]

It literally says it when you sign up for Microsoft 365 regarding what they scan for in OneDrive. I'm not making anything up. I don't make things up for giggles, it's important to be aware of what you're signing up for when you use a service.

Oh it's inside TOC. Ok, maybe I will take a look when I got the chance.
But seriously though, you know most people wouldn't read any EULA or TOC right?
Not to say you are wrong, just so much so that customers are also here to blame.

 

[MrNeilSA]

I am a new apple customer, recently joining from samsung and windows, now own iphone 12 and MBA M1. A number of factors made me move to apple, but two of the biggest ones are reliability and privacy.

And now the CSAM. I feel like i made the wrong move switching to apple.

Should I leave apple because of this CSAM thing?

yes if you are hiding lots of illegal pics!

 

[dk001]

Data that you willing choose to upload to them.

And? That activity has nothing to do with the definition.

 

[dk001]

What’s the tangible difference between scanning a device which is connected to their server or scanning their server? Seems to be an identical end result.
If you’re not using their server they’re not scanning your device.

Same end result? Hardly.

Scan on server you scan all photos in all accounts.
Scan on device you scan only what gets uploaded when the user has a specific setting turned on.

Very different end results.

 

[usagora]

Spyware:

1. software (CSAM Checker)that enables a user (Apple) to obtain covert information (info the user doesn’t know) about another's computer (iPhone, iPad, Mac) activities (sending photos to iCloud) by transmitting data covertly from their hard drive.

Except that's completely false. Not only is NO data being transmitted to Apple unless 30+ positive CSAM matches are found, and you know what that data is (identifying into about those photos), but Apple has told everyone this is happening, thus it's the polar opposite of "covert".

 

[usagora]

It is amazing the lengths some here will go to rationalize their defense of Apple’s behavior.

That's funny - I was just thinking about the lengths you and others will go to demonize Apple's behavior. You keep misrepresenting it in spite of being corrected by me and others over and over. You obviously have an agenda that's fueling your thinking rather than an unbiased evaluation of the actual facts on the ground.

 

[usagora]

Yes they do. They have always had the keys to all your iCloud data, including backups.

The person whom you were replying to is referring to the device itself - Apple does NOT have access to that.

 

[Sciomar]

It is amazing the lengths some here will go to rationalize their defense of Apple’s behavior.

It is amazing the lengths some here will go to rationalize and infect others with their fear of Apple's behavior.

 

[dk001]

It is amazing the lengths some here will go to rationalize and infect others with their fear of Apple's behavior.

Works both ways.
What I find concerning is how some who applaud this feature lump those of us who push back for whatever reason in the the conspiracy theory bunch. Not saying you are one but some here are “their way” only.

I have lots of questions about these “features” and Apple has done little to nada in answering them.

 

[usagora]

What I find concerning is how some who applaud this feature lump those of us who push back for whatever reason in the the conspiracy theory bunch.

Well, when people propose conspiracy theories, don't be surprised when people call them . . . wait for it . . . conspiracy theorists.

I have lots of questions about these “features” and Apple has done little to nada in answering them.

Having lots of questions is perfectly legitimate. The issue is when people go from "unanswered questions" to conspiracy theories or other assertions of wrongdoing without any evidence to support it. "Unanswered questions" are not evidence.

I think Apple has answered all the major questions about this satisfactorily. You can either accept their answers or claim they're being dishonest, but you better have some proof if you go the latter route.

What are your top 2-3 questions that you don't believe Apple has addressed?

 

[MadeTheSwitch]

What’s the tangible difference between scanning a device which is connected to their server or scanning their server? Seems to be an identical end result.
If you’re not using their server they’re not scanning your device.

I think I was quite specific and clear in my reasoning for why I don’t like it.

And again, if it’s causing divisions internally in the company, obviously it’s something that shouldn’t be pursued as it’s too polarizing.

 

[Sciomar]

Works both ways.
What I find concerning is how some who applaud this feature lump those of us who push back for whatever reason in the the conspiracy theory bunch. Not saying you are one but some here are “their way” only.

I have lots of questions about these “features” and Apple has done little to nada in answering them.

Tribalism/new-age ideology is the root problem, there is only allowed to be an "us vs them" mentality and whoever is in the "us" camp (whichever side that is for people) is the righteous side. I am indifferent to the CSAM debacle, I don't intend to store that material nor do I befriend others who I think do. I try to understand arguments from different viewpoints. There are a lot of arguments on MR based solely around hypotheticals and like Lt Dan, they "ain't got no legs".

It also falls in line with the argument of technology leaps, to advance further one must be willing to give up certain freedoms. One wants their house to adjust temps and set lights or other devices a certain way based on their arriving/leaving home yet balks at the idea of sharing location data full time.

There is a lot of non social media echochamber generated material covering CSAM and how it is intended to work in this scenario, what questions do you have? Like any good group of tribalists, people have done their best to suppress informative posts that do not agree with their ideology.

 

[crymimefireworks]

I haven't been tracking this thread as much recently but it seems to be deteriorating. Don't see much of value in these last few pages, lots of re-hashing the same things. Is there anything about CSAM that hasn't already been discussed?

 

[Bandaman]

Oh it's inside TOC. Ok, maybe I will take a look when I got the chance.
But seriously though, you know most people wouldn't read any EULA or TOC right?
Not to say you are wrong, just so much so that customers are also here to blame.

Yes it's in the terms of service agreement. I found it a bit unsettling when I read it. Normally I wouldn't care as I haven't much pegged Microsoft for censorship like Google has done with their search engine, but they were caught recently "accidentally" blocking Tank Man pics during the anniversary of Tianamen Square in China. So they've apparently hopped on that bandwagon as well.

 

[Bandaman]

I haven't been tracking this thread as much recently but it seems to be deteriorating. Don't see much of value in these last few pages, lots of re-hashing the same things. Is there anything about CSAM that hasn't already been discussed?

How do you know it's deteriorating if you aren't reading?

 

[dk001]

Except that's completely false. Not only is NO data being transmitted to Apple unless 30+ positive CSAM matches are found, and you know what that data is (identifying into about those photos), but Apple has told everyone this is happening, thus it's the polar opposite of "covert".

Once again you read into it in an effort to rationalize your viewpoint.
You do that in an effort to claim it false when you know it isn’t.
You just don’t like it.

 

[hot-gril]

The person whom you were replying to is referring to the device itself - Apple does NOT have access to that.

He said after

So what would you rather have? Your backups with a back door online, or your backups without a back door online.

so I assumed cloud.