Silicon Mac users: What do you want from a new device in order to upgrade?

[bobcomer]

In an attempt to make more money (and become rich as Microsoft), Apple for a brief period in time tried to license its OS to other companies and allowed them to build officially supported Mac clones. This nearly brought the company to collapse, because it eliminated all reasons to pay a premium for expensive US-made Mac hardware. Upon his return Steve Jobs killed this self-harming business.

Ahh, a different kind of licensing, you should have been more specific as that's a rather large topic. There's so much software licensing to do with any computers, even linux ones, that is makes IT guys cry! It's a sizable portion of our jobs and about as interesting as watching paint dry. I don't really agree it was self harming, and Mac's might have more of a presence in the market if they did do it, but like you say, they are the richest computer maker, for now.

Never! Why would I have heard about a tiny Minnesota company, which adds nothing to the value of a product and takes a 20% cut? Nobody outside the US is talking about Best Buy. And everybody inside the US is talking about how online retailers like Amazon are killing them with their lower cost structures, larger scale and better logistics. The important point here is that Apple eliminated the need to buy from a retailer. You can go directly to the Apple website or to a physical Apple Store and buy Apple products and services from the source. Apple Stores are by far the most profitable shops by revenue per square meter. They are in the nicest old buildings in the most touristy locations of the world's largest metropolises. They build the brand and improve customer relations, but they also make an awful lot of money on their own.

lol, you don't have retailers that sell Mac's in Germany? I see a few in google. Anyway, that has never been unusual here in the U.S. I almost always buy computers from the maker rather than a retailor, Dell, Lenovo, HP, ..., it's easier to order what I want.

This is also a huge disadvantage, because with dependence on suppliers like Intel you lose control over innovation, release dates, price points, performance, heat, weight, noise and battery life of your products. And everybody else can build similarly ****** notebooks with the same Intel CPUs. So you've lost your most important unique selling preposition (USP), which makes the customer come to you and not go to the next best Chinese slave manufacturer. M-series chips are not just great for what they are and what they can do. One of their biggest benefits to Apple and their customers alike is that you can only buy them inside a Mac or iPad.

That's a bit much, but whatever. Do remember that Apple uses Chinese slave manufacturers too. (and now India)

I happen to need backwards compatibility for work, so I don't view apple's way of pulling the rug out from under people's feet every few years just to get their core people excited. I still want to use Mac's at home, but they are making it real hard for me not to despise them instead. Just this morning the rumor of discontinuing services to Apple branded software after only 5 years, it's *almost* enough for me to give up on them for good.

 

[dmccloud]

In an attempt to make more money (and become rich as Microsoft), Apple for a brief period in time tried to license its OS to other companies and allowed them to build officially supported Mac clones. This nearly brought the company to collapse, because it eliminated all reasons to pay a premium for expensive US-made Mac hardware. Upon his return Steve Jobs killed this self-harming business.

There were other significant factors at play there at the time. The Mac product line had become so bloated that customers couldn't tell the difference between (for example) a Performa 630, Performa 630CD, or Quadra 630 (all of which were on the market at the same time.). The numerous delays relating to System 8 and the failed Copland project also meant that the Mac was stagnating as a platform at a time when HP, Compaq, and others were innovating on a daily basis.

Here is a partial list of the Macs which were in production for at least a part of 1997 (the year Steve Jobs returned to the company):

Performa 5270CD, Performa 5400 series, Performa 6400/6410/6420, Performa 6360, Performa 5280

Power Mac 9500, Power Mac 5300/100LC, Power Mac 7200, Power Mac 7500, Power Mac 8500, Power Mac 7215, Power Mac 5260, Power Mac 5400, Power Mac 7600, Power Mac 8200, Power Mac 6300, Power Mac 6400, Power Mac 4400, Power Mac 5500, Power Mac 7220, Power Mac 7300, Power Mac 6500, Power Mac 8600, Power Mac 9600

PowerBook Duo 2300c/100, PowerBook 1400cs/1400c, PowerBook 3400c, PowerBook 2400c, PowerBook G3

Workgroup Server 7250, Workgroup Server 8550, Workgroup Server 500, Workgroup Server 700, Workgroup Server 7350, Workgroup Server 9650

Compare that to the modern day lineup, where you have four laptop lines (MBA, 13/14/16" MBP) and four desktop lines (iMac, Mini, Studio, Mac Pro). While you can customize the specific configurations under each product line, it is significantly easier to understand the product lineup in 2023 compared to the early to mid 90s.

 

[dmccloud]

Never! Why would I have heard about a tiny Minnesota company, which adds nothing to the value of a product and takes a 20% cut? Nobody outside the US is talking about Best Buy. And everybody inside the US is talking about how online retailers like Amazon are killing them with their lower cost structures, larger scale and better logistics. The important point here is that Apple eliminated the need to buy from a retailer. You can go directly to the Apple website or to a physical Apple Store and buy Apple products and services from the source. Apple Stores are by far the most profitable shops by revenue per square meter. They are in the nicest old buildings in the most touristy locations of the world's largest metropolises. They build the brand and improve customer relations, but they also make an awful lot of money on their own.

Best Buy a "tiny" Minnesota company? The company brought in $46 BILLION in revenue in their last fiscal year. Also, Best Buy does have a Canadian division, so yes, people outside the US ARE talking about the company. The other thing you overlook is that if there was no need for third party resellers, then no Best Buy or AAR/AASP would exist. There are not enough Apple Stores in the world to satisfy demand for Apple Products. Likewise, Apple would not put the investment into the Best Buy relationship if it did not benefit the company. Best Buy stores basically have an Apple store within a store (SWS), and each store is supposed to have both an Apple Computing Pro and Apple Mobile Pro (both of whom have to go through Apple-provided and led training). Some locations even have an Apple Employee who works in direct support of local Best Buys.

 

[Calson]

I have a 16-inch MacBook Pro but our primary workstations are Wintel machines. When Apple started to offer only 40+ lb workstations that cost more than $8000 when fully configured we migrated our business off of Apple.

The Apple Studio would be worth considering if is had a M2 processor but Apple for some reason wants to force people to buy a Mini or a MP workstation. For our video editing the mini and M1 Studio are not up to the task and spending 3 times as much for a Mac Pro workstaton is not something we are comfortable doing.

 

[Gudi]

There's so much software licensing to do with any computers, even linux ones, that is makes IT guys cry! It's a sizable portion of our jobs and about as interesting as watching paint dry. I don't really agree it was self harming, and Mac's might have more of a presence in the market if they did do it, but like you say, they are the richest computer maker, for now.

The richest technology company in human history. And they don't really sell much standalone software. Most of it is integrated into one or another hardware product and the user only needs to click on a licence agreement once after a major OS upgrade. I doubt Apple bothers any of its programmers with thinking about licences.

Anyway, that has never been unusual here in the U.S. I almost always buy computers from the maker rather than a retailer.

Up unto Mai 2001 (first Apple Retail Store) and November 1997 (Apple Online Store) everyone in the US bought their Macs from a middleman, who took a share of the profit but also controlled the customer experience. That's if they even bought a Mac and not a Mac clone with only the OS and a bunch of other bloatware installed. The more you control of the value chain, the more you can guarantee that your customer has indeed a premium experience and feels your asking price was justified for what he got. Not more but less people would be using macOS today, if Apple had continued to licence it away to other companies.

Do remember that Apple uses Chinese slave manufacturers too.

Yes, but as a major client of the slave factory, they control the treatment of the slaves who build Apple products. If they sold M-series chips to OEMs like Intel does, they would have a lot less control over worker treatment and quality of the finished product.

 

[Gudi]

Also, Best Buy does have a Canadian division, so yes, people outside the US ARE talking about the company.

Yes! Canada is outside the US, but Canadians are not talking about BestBuy.

The other thing you overlook is that if there was no need for third party resellers, then no Best Buy or AAR/AASP would exist.

Lots of things exist despite a need. If anything was not quite right with BestBuy, Canadians would order their Apple stuff online. But you can no longer build your own Hackintosh with the same CPU as the most recent Mac. You need to pay Apple to benefit from Apple's chip innovations.

There are not enough Apple Stores in the world to satisfy demand for Apple Products. Likewise, Apple would not put the investment into the Best Buy relationship if it did not benefit the company.

I don't think Apple views its relationship with BestBuy as strategic. Apple invests billions of dollars upfront into new TSMC factories. That's a supplier Apple desperately needs and can't replace with a competitor or do it all themselves. TSMC is needed and therefor highly profitable.

Best Buy stores basically have an Apple store within a store (SWS), and each store is supposed to have both an Apple Computing Pro and Apple Mobile Pro (both of whom have to go through Apple-provided and led training).

Which tells you, that BestBuy needs to list Apple products because of widespread customer demand. Apple's striking success with customers forces retailers to play by Cupertino's rules. Not the other way around.

Some locations even have an Apple Employee who works in direct support of local Best Buys.

Pathetic! 😁

 

[Gudi]

There were other significant factors at play there at the time. The Mac product line had become so bloated that customers couldn't tell the difference between (for example) a Performa 630, Performa 630CD, or Quadra 630 (all of which were on the market at the same time.). The numerous delays relating to System 8 and the failed Copland project also meant that the Mac was stagnating as a platform at a time when HP, Compaq, and others were innovating on a daily basis.

All factors play a role all of the time. That's why it's called reality. There are weaknesses in Apple's set-up today. For example there's only one size of iMac, but five different iPads and three variants of 13-inch MacBooks. But Apple is still not losing customers left and right, because it stands on a sound foundation of past innovations, which you can't get anywhere else. The M3 can be late and the M2 can be lacklustre. It doesn't matter, because no one has even matched the M1. And even the chipmakers, who work on beating the M1 on performance per watt are not competing with Apple on display quality or OS features and cloud services. It's a whole package deal and Apple always wins, because it offers everything under just one price tag.

R&D is not a horrible cost factor, which you want to put on as many shoulders as possible. It's what creates a unique selling proposition, which you don't want to share with your competition. Using M-series chips in both Macs and iPads, great. Selling them to Lenovo, not so great.

 

[bobcomer]

Yes, but as a major client of the slave factory, they control the treatment of the slaves who build Apple products. If they sold M-series chips to OEMs like Intel does, they would have a lot less control over worker treatment and quality of the finished product.

Yeah, that's why there were suicides, their great treatment. I really don't like this part of Apple.

Up unto Mai 2001 (first Apple Retail Store) and November 1997 (Apple Online Store) everyone in the US bought their Macs from a middleman, who took a share of the profit but also controlled the customer experience. That's if they even bought a Mac and not a Mac clone with only the OS and a bunch of other bloatware installed. The more you control of the value chain, the more you can guarantee that your customer has indeed a premium experience and feels your asking price was justified for what he got. Not more but less people would be using macOS today, if Apple had continued to licence it away to other companies.

You give far too much faith to Apple, my experiences of late have been as crappy as they could be. M1 M1MBA was unusuable it throttled so much, and my M1 Studio Max has the whine -- that Apple still hasn't acknowledged.

I'm happy with my just purchased Intel iMac 27", but I'm pretty much done with Apple otherwise I've been treated so well. And I just preordered a new AMD laptop today, a framework, all upgradable RAM and SSD, I'm going to love it and I'll run Windows on it.

 

[Gudi]

Yeah, that's why there were suicides, their great treatment. I really don't like this part of Apple.

But you got to admit that Apple initially tried to build computers domestically and only went to Asia after cheaper copy-cat competitors forced them to abandon US production. Chinese manual labor is darn cheap, because of the poor treatment of people by their own government. But there aren't very many other places where you can hire 300.000 assembly workers for one factory. You've got to deal with reality as it is.

You give far too much faith to Apple, my experiences of late have been as crappy as they could be.

And you take way too much of what Apple offers for granted. I've had my fair share of problems with Macs, but that doesn't take away from what Apple is doing right.

And I just preordered a new AMD laptop today, a framework, all upgradable RAM and SSD, I'm going to love it and I'll run Windows on it.

I want to make a joke here, but can't risk offending the internet police. My best condolences!

 

[bobcomer]

And you take way too much of what Apple offers for granted. I've had my fair share of problems with Macs, but that doesn't take away from what Apple is doing right.

They're not doing much right at all for me unfortunately.

I want to make a joke here, but can't risk offending the internet police. My best condolences!

I can imagine. . But I will say it has all upgradable parts, unlike a certain other company, and it will run all the software I need for work and home. I only run mac right now because it's different from work, but that's not how I started -- I actually liked some of the things they were doing. The iPhone *was* innovative and exciting, the Mac handled video so much better than Windows did back then, and I could still do the work on it.

I am still really happy with my Apple Watch, I guess you could say I'm taking that for granted. I'm really happy with my iMac too, but that's a discontinued product.

And yes, I'm far too grumpy right now, so sorry about that.

 

[floral]

I tried to include options that'd be relatable to both desktop and laptop users but apparently this isn't the case and I apologize for that. What would you like to see included in the poll?

Added some options that would cater to desktop users. (I hope?)

 

[Gudi]

And yes, I'm far too grumpy right now, so sorry about that.

That's just natural. Humans get used to everything very quickly. Putting a man on the moon is an unbelievable miracle, until it turns into boring waste of money. And yet NASA is the only organisation which can do it. iPhones are still great, the graphics capabilities of Macs are still amazing and the power-efficiency of M-chips are still awesome. And yet you can get a used M1 iMac for only €800, but a used Magic Mouse is still €40. And for a Keyboard with TouchID you can buy a small moon. God knows what excites people? 🤷

 

[dmccloud]

Yes! Canada is outside the US, but Canadians are not talking about BestBuy.

Lots of things exist despite a need. If anything was not quite right with BestBuy, Canadians would order their Apple stuff online. But you can no longer build your own Hackintosh with the same CPU as the most recent Mac. You need to pay Apple to benefit from Apple's chip innovations.

I don't think Apple views its relationship with BestBuy as strategic. Apple invests billions of dollars upfront into new TSMC factories. That's a supplier Apple desperately needs and can't replace with a competitor or do it all themselves. TSMC is needed and therefor highly profitable.

Which tells you, that BestBuy needs to list Apple products because of widespread customer demand. Apple's striking success with customers forces retailers to play by Cupertino's rules. Not the other way around.

Pathetic! 😁

1. Both Best Buy US and Best Buy Canada have immense buying power, which means that they're the largest third-party Apple retailer in the world. Apple used to have stores inside CompUSA as well, until Carlos Slim folded that company overnight in 2007. Apple wouldn't maintain their longstanding agreement with Best Buy if it didn't benefit them strategically. The sheer number of Best Buy locations in areas where there are no Apple Stores gives Apple a significantly larger retail footprint than they would have without Best Buy.

2. Your point about third party retailers playing by Apple's rules has been known for decades, because Apple has long had high standards for third party retailers. The reason physical retail is still needed today is experiential in nature. There is a sizeable percentage of customers who prefer testing a new computer (regardless of underlying OS) in person rather than relying on websites and YouTube to convey what those devices are like. You can explain the difference between current MacBook keyboards and the butterfly keyboards until you're blue in the face, but being able to go into a store and use one yourself is an experience that even the most advanced web/virtual technology cannot reproduce.

3. I have no idea why having an Apple representative in Best Buy stores is considered "pathetic" in your mind. That feels like a cop-out argument on your part because you actually had no real argument to make on that one.

 

[Gudi]

1. Apple wouldn't maintain their longstanding agreement with Best Buy if it didn't benefit them strategically.

It does benefit them, but just so far. Apple didn't become the largest tech company in the world by letting others decide, how to build their hardware, how to design their packaging, how to organise their in-store customer experience. They don't even buy their Apple Store glass staircases out of the box. Steve Jobs personally holds a patent on one architectural design element of one such store.

The Surprising Patents of Steve Jobs

Every brand of jeans has their own flagship store in which they present their designs in the way they are meant to be seen. Buying from the bargain bin does not generate the same brand value. BestBuy literally has a price tag for a company logo, promising cheap junk and not a tasty apple.

The sheer number of Best Buy locations in areas where there are no Apple Stores gives Apple a significantly larger retail footprint than they would have without Best Buy.

Ever heard the expression: "Eat ****. Millions of flies can't be wrong." You do not become a premium manufacturer by selling the most. Only exceptional quality generates a higher profit margin. Apple loves to sacrifice market share for a bigger pie of the profit share.

Remember Leo Apotheker the then CEO of Hewlett-Packard telling the company in 2011, that the largest or second-largest PC manufacturer in the world would never have a chance to make a profit in the PC market and should abandon it completely? That's the effect of scale without a unique selling proposition.

Apple has long had high standards for third party retailers.

Every school girl has high standards for with whom she interacts. But only the exceptionally pretty ones are able to cast a spell on the entire class.

I have no idea why having an Apple representative in Best Buy stores is considered "pathetic" in your mind. That feels like a cop-out argument on your part because you actually had no real argument to make on that one.

Who holds the power in the Apple-BestBuy relationship? Who needs the other more than vice versa? Who can make the rules for the other one to follow? If BestBuy demands rebates from your average PC vendor, they get them, because they control so many stores in North America. But Apple can feel confident that its customers will not buy something else instead, but immediately leave BestBuy and look for a store that sells the new Macs.

Up until the iPhone came along telecom service providers were the gatekeepers in the market. They branded all the phones they sold with their own skins and pre-installed their apps, which offered their services. But iPhones were in such high demand that they had to agree to only show their name in the top left corner. Not even a company logo anywhere on the phone! And with the "top" notch and dynamic island you barely get to see the signal strength anymore. They are completely out of mind. Just like BestBuy.

 

[pastrychef]

I have an M1 Max Mac Studio. I will upgrade when the base model has more, faster CPU cores.

For my laptop, I'd like to see more RAM and/or lower cost to upgrade RAM on the Airs.

 

[nquinn]

I'm on a 2021 M1 Max (24 core igpu). My plan is to wait for my next machine to be:

1. A 15" air like model instead of this heavy 16" (may change my mind comparing screens)
2. Single core performance at least double my M1 Max (guessing M5+)
3. Wi-fi 7 support (2025 probably)
4. On sale at the refurb store (usually adds 18 months from release time)
5. Ideally base model has at least 1TB so it won't cost a fortune to jump to 2TB

Based on a +20%/yr increase in single core performance that would be 2026 or so. Honestly though I'll probably keep this macbook for 7yrs+ unless I really get bored or run into money.

There is a certain timing where it makes sense to sell and still get good value out of it though.

Will also keep an eye out on any other breakthroughs or standards. I'd love to see AV1 decode officially supported with Apple.

Main flaw with this plan is that the air line probably will never get the better mini-LED screens or a base storage amount that I want.

 

[zakarhino]

Currently on an M1 Max 64GB 16" MBP. I would upgrade for the following:
1. Better efficiency for low intensity tasks
2. Better GPU performance
3. OLED

I would probably spec 96GB too.

 

[satcomer]

I bought my first Mac while in was Army at a PX Electronic Store with was G3 Mac tower! Then I had early 2000 G5 Tower and then my 2008 Mac Pro and my Mac Book Air M1! I was raised on Macs n school Art class back in 84! So naturally I have been a Mac user for long time and you know how I voted!

 

[VivienM]

Yes! Canada is outside the US, but Canadians are not talking about BestBuy.

We're not?!

If anything, due to the higher cost of shipping in Canada, until the pandemic, Canada was less e-commerce-centric than the U.S. Most people buying parts to assemble Windows machines, for example, bought them from specialized brick & mortar computer shops. I was told years and years ago by friends in the U.S. that there were essentially no such shops there because everyone just bought their motherboards and video cards and even cases online.

Best Buy (or "worst" buy as most techies call it) is the largest electronics retailer in this country, without really that much competition. No one else, at least in the east, sells both Windows and Mac computers and accessories, cell phones for all the major carriers, console gaming stuff, TVs and home theater stuff, appliances, etc under the same roof.

 

[VivienM]

To answer the OP's question - hopefully my M1 Max MBP will last about six years, which is how long I kept my previous mid-2014 15" MBP? And if its battery hadn't started swelling for the second time and if Monterey hadn't just dropped it, maybe I would have kept the mid-2014 a little longer. I'm just happy I managed to avoid the USB-C-only models. At the price tag I paid for this thing, well... not really looking to upgrade soon.

And one thing I appreciate about Apple in the last decade or so is that they have generally avoided the kind of giant insane internals + externals upgrade that makes you really upset that your $4000 one-year old thing is so horribly horribly horribly obsolete.

My hope is that my next Apple Silicon purchase, rather than being another laptop, will be some kind of a desktop to replace my 27" iMac. M4 Max Mac Studio with some kind of decent external monitor option? 34" M4 Pro iMac Pro?

Things I'd like to see, though:
- better wifi (no 6GHz "6E" on the 2021 models)
- more RAM to feed the never-ending hunger of web browsers and web technologies
- a modernized Apple Silicon version of the 12" MacBook, though... to be honest, I do not have anywhere near enough of a need for a small laptop to buy one new
(Oh, and of course I would agree with everybody else on a USB-A port, but... I can't imagine Apple changing their mind on that one.)

 

[thebart]

5. Ideally base model has at least 1TB so it won't cost a fortune to jump to 2TB

.

By then computers will be obsolete because we'll only need iLink to interact with our ASI overlord

 

[Gudi]

Best Buy (or "worst" buy as most techies call it) is the largest electronics retailer in this country, without really that much competition. No one else, at least in the east, sells both Windows and Mac computers and accessories, cell phones for all the major carriers, console gaming stuff, TVs and home theater stuff, appliances, etc under the same roof.

Sounds a lot like MediaMarkt here in Germany. Being a big retail monopolist doesn't go well with being innovative. I don't even go there anymore to look at stuff before I buy from somewhere else. You learn more about a product by doing online research. You get an idea of what something is worth by price comparison sites. And then you buy from eBay or Craigslist. Since the pandemic many shops in the Shopping Center are closed, the others don't open before 10 AM. And as an Apple user, you start to lose interest in PC components and accessories anyway.

 

[dmccloud]

Sounds a lot like MediaMarkt here in Germany. Being a big retail monopolist doesn't go well with being innovative. I don't even go there anymore to look at stuff before I buy from somewhere else. You learn more about a product by doing online research. You get an idea of what something is worth by price comparison sites. And then you buy from eBay or Craigslist. Since the pandemic many shops in the Shopping Center are closed, the others don't open before 10 AM. And as an Apple user, you start to lose interest in PC components and accessories anyway.

Unless eBay and Craigslist are significantly more reliable in Germany, I wouldn't rely on either option to procure components or PC accessories. Too many examples of people being scammed on both sites to really trust those as primary sources to purchase from. Also, a lot of customers prefer to see products in-person, because the experience of using a MacBook, iPad, etc. is not something that can be reproduced via online research.

In the US, there are a lot of options to see products in person, regardless of manufacturer. Granted, only a few really could be considered major players (Best Buy, Apple Stores, MicroCenter [where present]), but you also have Target, WalMart, Sam's Club, Costco, Staples, Office Max/Depot who also sell computers and computer accessories and/or components, just to name a few. That's before you even get into the online space, where you have Newegg, Amazon, and manufacturer websites galore.

 

[pshufd]

Unless eBay and Craigslist are significantly more reliable in Germany, I wouldn't rely on either option to procure components or PC accessories. Too many examples of people being scammed on both sites to really trust those as primary sources to purchase from. Also, a lot of customers prefer to see products in-person, because the experience of using a MacBook, iPad, etc. is not something that can be reproduced via online research.

In the US, there are a lot of options to see products in person, regardless of manufacturer. Granted, only a few really could be considered major players (Best Buy, Apple Stores, MicroCenter [where present]), but you also have Target, WalMart, Sam's Club, Costco, Staples, Office Max/Depot who also sell computers and computer accessories and/or components, just to name a few. That's before you even get into the online space, where you have Newegg, Amazon, and manufacturer websites galore.

Ebay is typically done via post. Craigslist is typically done in-person as is Facebook Marketplace.

 

[Gudi]

Also, a lot of customers prefer to see products in-person, because the experience of using a MacBook, iPad, etc. is not something that can be reproduced via online research.

The cool and quiet performance of an M1 iMac can not be experienced in a mega electronics store either. It's something you only learn from using it in the privacy of your own room during a cold winter night. I knew all about the significance of the ARM transition and was still impressed by how it felt to use it. Benchmarks can't describe feelings, but reviews and unboxings can. Just go to Youtube, don't ask an BestBuy employee. Craigslist is best to see and test an item before paying and you also get the best prices and most pleasant purchase experience from your neighbours. My last visit led me into the home of a very friendly actor. eBay auctions are hit and miss, like with stocks you shouldn't risk more money than you can afford to lose. But the prices produced by auctions are the fairest, you get exactly how much in demand a product still is despite Apple's fantasy prices.