So did Apple give up on gaming?

[Adarna]

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No.

Apple's a near $3 trillion company. Your point of view would have allowed them only be a near $3 billion company.

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

 

[LeeW]

Apple is focused on productivity always has been, not gaming (outside of the arcade). Even if they could be competent gaming machines that developers could bring many titles to, Apple doesn't want their devices to be seen as gaming machines as it will cheapen the brand.

Aside from that, you are not going to encourage gamers away from their upgradeable gaming laptops or desktops for a $2.5k+ MBP.

More than that, I am sure these devices will sell well but the majority of the 100m+ mac users out there are unlikely to be big gamers or rushing to upgrade to Apple Silicon devices. Most are still on intel devices and for the most part happy to continue that way until they have a reason to upgrade.

It will be many years, probably closer to a decade before there are enough Mac users on Apple Silicon to interest developers enough to take the risk in bringing titles to the Mac without Apple subsidies which they are not offering.

 

[zarathu]

Apple will not get into hardcore games. What will happen is that the gaming industry will suddenly discover that they can do things with a RISC based Apple computer that they simply cannot do with an Intel/AMD and they will start writing games for that. It will be like the Model T. One moment horses, and then two years later only cars.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Apple is not going to make a laptop for hardcore gaming. Thats a different world. Those are ugly fat 17 inch screen 1080p Alienware machines. Maybe eventually their RISC machines will eclipse the Intel CISC, but I’m betting it will be another company than does it. But again, it is the software developers that will make use of the hardware.

Lol, they already did ?. The M1 Max is equivalent to a 3080 and the M1 pro is faster than a 3050ti

 

[Melbourne Park]

Hence the topic. It would be great, for those who are buying a mac, if a mac capable of this kind of performance in a notebook, could actually game.

That said, I think you are being rather unfair to gaming laptops. I can get a 17 inch gaming laptop that handles thermals fine and is actually rather performant.

That depends on how you define a laptop. I'll have a go, and thanks for your reply. For instance, can you play a game on it, flying Melbourne Australia to Los Angeles (a 14 hour flight)?

I reckon big and heavy which is designed to perform best with its power supply turned on, is not a real notebook.

And Intel agrees it seems to me ... their CEO is now saying that they're going to make a better combined CPU & GPU chip that will out perform the "M" architecture. When Intel achieves that, then the heavy, hot and power hungry behemoths you're talking about, will be gone. Intel is saying that kind of thing, to comfort the x86 space.

ie Intel is saying: Don't worry, we'll get there eventually, so continue to forget an alternative, it's not worth any effort.

Microsoft did the same thing (and more) with MS Word - don't worry, we are working on those new features which the other word processing companies now have introduced, but beware, those features will not work when the upgrade to Windows ships. And we'll ship the features you want eventually.

I don't think a 17" which needs an external battery pack to keep it going for half the life on a Macbook Pro, even fits the definition of a notebook. Their battery life, size and weight means that they are really portable computers, not notebooks.

 

[robco74]

I look forward to real world testing, specifically, performance on battery power. M1 can more or less go full tilt on battery and still get a decent amount of battery life. Most gaming laptops throttle considerably when on battery. I would consider them portables rather than laptops. Apparently the new all AMD machines with the 6xxxM GPUs combined with Ryzen manage to do pretty well, and while they lack many Nvidia-specific features, are at least competitive.

 

[LonestarOne]

I’m confused by this so-called “business+gaming” market. I see computers being advertised as business machines and computers being advertised as gaming machines. Those are generally separate product lines.

You started out talking about “real gaming”, then very quickly flipped to talked about enterprises. The IT departments who control enterprise purchasing don’t give a flip about gaming. Most of them don’t want users to install games or other unapproved software on enterprise machines.

In other words, huh???

 

[JouniS]

That depends on how you define a laptop. I'll have a go, and thanks for your reply. For instance, can you play a game on it, flying Melbourne Australia to Los Angeles (a 14 hour flight)?

No laptop has a good enough battery life for gaming on a long-haul flight. Even the new MBPs will probably only get 2-3 hours, because the battery is limited to 100 Wh. Luckily all decent airlines have in-seat power on such flights, which has allowed me to play Civ 6 on my Intel MBP.

 

[AHDuke99]

Apple is focused on productivity always has been, not gaming (outside of the arcade). Even if they could be competent gaming machines that developers could bring many titles to, Apple doesn't want their devices to be seen as gaming machines as it will cheapen the brand.

Aside from that, you are not going to encourage gamers away from their upgradeable gaming laptops or desktops for a $2.5k+ MBP.

More than that, I am sure these devices will sell well but the majority of the 100m+ mac users out there are unlikely to be big gamers or rushing to upgrade to Apple Silicon devices. Most are still on intel devices and for the most part happy to continue that way until they have a reason to upgrade.

It will be many years, probably closer to a decade before there are enough Mac users on Apple Silicon to interest developers enough to take the risk in bringing titles to the Mac without Apple subsidies which they are not offering.

Pretty much this. Gaming laptops tend to have the reputation of being clunking and overall just unattractive, and that isn't Apple's MO or business model. Apple silicon has the raw power to probably run any games it wants, but Apple doesn't care for it to have that reputation. Once people start to retire their Intel macs, it will then be a choice of leaving Apple altogether to be able to play games or buy a new Apple silicon machine and pair it with a Windows PC or console.

Good news is, the only PC games I still play are Heroes of the Storm and SC2 occasionally so the new games don't mean anything to me. I just have no idea how either of those titles would run through Rosetta on the M1 Pro or Max.

 

[Melbourne Park]

No laptop has a good enough battery life for gaming on a long-haul flight. Even the new MBPs will probably only get 2-3 hours, because the battery is limited to 100 Wh. Luckily all decent airlines have in-seat power on such flights, which has allowed me to play Civ 6 on my Intel MBP.

Yes, there's an air authority limit of 100 watts on carrying on computers etc. My 2017 Macbook Pro has a separate radeon Pro 560, which would draw a lot more power I presume. But if I had a Razor 17", plugged in, in Business Class, things should be fine with such a portable computer, but in economy, a Razor etc. would be too noisy.

It'll be interesting to see what real battery performance is like. I think though, that with such limits on battery capacity, having a lower power draw architecture that still has speed capability is a major notebook competitive advantage. Same too with having a bulky form factor notebook - more bulky means it's less of a notebook. When I look at 17" high performance game notebooks, I cannot help but be reminded of the original Mac, which was designed to sit on floor between your legs on an aeroplane flight.

 

[Digital_Sousaphone]

I’m reminded of this verse with every post about Apple silicon performance gains:


Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

 

[mi7chy]

Gaming laptops tend to have the reputation of being clunking and overall just unattractive, and that isn't Apple's MO or business model.

New MBP 16" at 4.5# is actually kind of pigly compared to something slim and sexy like the 4# Legion Slim 7 with dGPU.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-7-series/legion-s7-15ach6/88gmy701595

 

[Melbourne Park]

New MBP 16" at 4.5# is actually kind of pigly compared to something slim and sexy like the 4# Legion Slim 7 with dGPU.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-7-series/legion-s7-15ach6/88gmy701595

But that's not a game machine, unless it's connected to an external monitor.

In a way, that machine highlights the problem with x86 at the moment. It's just not suitable for proper gaming when it's being used purely as a notebook.

How could one play a game with a screen that is 1920 x 1080 and is dull at 300 nits? The reason for it's decent GPU is for an external monitor. So it fails the gaming notebook classification. It's a narrow viewing platform. It's like, err, about one seventh the dot count of the 16".

Even Apple's new 14.2-inch has 3024 x 1964, a lot of colour and contrast, and its 1,000 nits bright. The 16" has 3456 x 2234.

 

[mi7chy]

But that's not a game machine, unless it's connected to an external monitor.

How could one play a game with a screen that is 1920 x 1080 and is dull at 300 nits? The reason for it's decent GPU is for an external monitor. So it fails the gaming notebook classification.

Even Apple's new 14.2-inch has 3024 x 1964, a lot of colour and contrast, and its 1,000 nits bright.

Maybe you should look closer and notice the 4K display option. 1000 nits is just for bragging rights because no one looks into a spotlight with everything blown out when gaming.

Majority of games don't even run on the new Macbook Pros at all and even if they could external display is limited to 60Hz when you plug in a 120Hz+ display.

 

[Melbourne Park]

Maybe you should look closer and notice the 4K display option. 1000 nits is just for bragging rights because no one looks into a spotlight with everything blown out when gaming.

Majority of games don't even run on the new Macbook Pros at all and even if they could external display is limited to 60Hz when you plug in a 120Hz+ display.

And what are the penalties when you do that?

As it's all been said before, game developers typically don't have a business model for Apple. We've run the arguments here, and while the M platform could do it, the business case for developers typically fails. Such game businesses will simply wait until Intel comes up with a unified memory, high speed on chip GPUs, etc. just like M has now achieved. Then, a gaming notebook will work on Windows. Right now though, the real "gaming" notebooks cannot be used as gaming notebooks without being attached to a Power source, so they are not gaming notebooks at all. They're really hybrids. With the current X86 architecture, we cannot have our cake and eat it too. You could on "M", but the business case mostly fails. In a few years, when Intel introduces Arm style X86 chips, all those meaty GPU equipped noisy power hungry portable game computers will suddenly be dinosaurs.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

That depends on how you define a laptop. I'll have a go, and thanks for your reply. For instance, can you play a game on it, flying Melbourne Australia to Los Angeles (a 14 hour flight)?

I reckon big and heavy which is designed to perform best with its power supply turned on, is not a real notebook.

And Intel agrees it seems to me ... their CEO is now saying that they're going to make a better combined CPU & GPU chip that will out perform the "M" architecture. When Intel achieves that, then the heavy, hot and power hungry behemoths you're talking about, will be gone. Intel is saying that kind of thing, to comfort the x86 space.

ie Intel is saying: Don't worry, we'll get there eventually, so continue to forget an alternative, it's not worth any effort.

Microsoft did the same thing (and more) with MS Word - don't worry, we are working on those new features which the other word processing companies now have introduced, but beware, those features will not work when the upgrade to Windows ships. And we'll ship the features you want eventually.

I don't think a 17" which needs an external battery pack to keep it going for half the life on a Macbook Pro, even fits the definition of a notebook. Their battery life, size and weight means that they are really portable computers, not notebooks.

There are alternatives in the 15 inch range that can meet some of that. Still 14 hours? We will see if you stress the M1 Pro or Max for hours on end with all the GPUs engaged what the battery life is. It probably won't be 14 hours. It definitely won't be gaming for 14 hours with any of the latest games -- except maybe BG3?

 

[Sophisticatednut]

New MBP 16" at 4.5# is actually kind of pigly compared to something slim and sexy like the 4# Legion Slim 7 with dGPU.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-7-series/legion-s7-15ach6/88gmy701595

shame it will melt my room and die within 30min. But also shame apple M1 have no games at all with their 20h battery life and 3080 like GPU power and i9 power

 

[eltoslightfoot]

New MBP 16" at 4.5# is actually kind of pigly compared to something slim and sexy like the 4# Legion Slim 7 with dGPU.

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/legion-laptops/legion-7-series/legion-s7-15ach6/88gmy701595

Exactly. There are options.

 

[LonestarOne]

But also shame apple M1 have no games at all with their 20h battery life and 3080 like GPU power and i9 power

Mac M1 Games: Native & Rosetta 2 supported games | Mac Gamer HQ

www.macgamerhq.com

 

[Bandaman]

I mean real gaming. Games like Cyberpunk, borderlands, fall cry 6, final fantasy XIV, world of Warcraft, minecraft… Not these arcade “games”.

It’s great their chips are faster and reduced power usage but compatibility matters. No nvidia discrete graphics card option is a mistake. A lot of software is only compatible with Intel/AMD chips. Software used in businesses where upgrading or finding alternative options that work with M1 isn’t an option.

It looks like Apple is more centered around the Hollywood/movie/music industry and not the business+gaming market which is a huge mistake to be a niche product. It’s also becoming harder and harder for enterprise businesses to manage their Mac fleet.

Is this experience shared or is my assertion mistaken? What has your experience been with these M1 chips in the business sector? Are there real games that work with M1 chips? Maybe I’m ignorant on the topic.

This isn’t my first post but it is. Had to make a new account for some reason.

Blizzard already created a native World of Warcraft for Apple's M1 chips and it runs on high settings. So that's not a good example. Also, WoW has been on Mac for ages. It's completely up to the developers at this point to create games for the Mac. The M1 is capable of high end graphics and these new chips considerably more so, especially with Metal. Developers have to want to do it or it's not happening. But lack of capable hardware is no longer a reason to not develop for the Mac.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Blizzard already created a native World of Warcraft for Apple's M1 chips and it runs on high settings. So that's not a good example. Also, WoW has been on Mac for ages. It's completely up to the developers at this point to create games for the Mac. The M1 is capable of high end graphics and these new chips considerably more so, especially with Metal. Developers have to want to do it or it's not happening. But lack of capable hardware is no longer a reason to not develop for the Mac.

Market share, however, is.

 

[Bandaman]

Market share, however, is.

Although that is true, there will be millions of Mac users for untapped revenue potential over the next several years as everyone moves to the new M-series chips. These new Macs are potentially on par with the latest high end GPUs graphically and the M1 itself is quite capable already. I was actually shocked how well the M1 played World of Warcraft. Many gamers are really only on Windows PCs because there literally haven't been any alternatives. If Macs become an alternative, the tide may shift, but that's only if devs started caring about the Mac.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Although that is true, there will be millions of Mac users for untapped revenue potential over the next several years as everyone moves to the new M-series chips. These new Macs are potentially on par with the latest high end GPUs graphically and the M1 itself is quite capable already. I was actually shocked how well the M1 played World of Warcraft. Many gamers are really only on Windows PCs because there literally haven't been any alternatives. If Macs become an alternative, the tide may shift, but that's only if devs started caring about the Mac.

there being millions dosent mean it's worth the investment. do you invest for a 5% market or 95% market. we will see. i wait for the day

 

[tpfang56]

I would love if apple gradually stepped into the gaming world by courting developers. Then again, many of the games I want to play on PC are older 32bit.

Consoles are great and I strongly prefer using the controller in most cases, but there are some games that are just so much better on PC with high refresh rate and mods! And let’s be real, most people cannot afford to have both a high end productivity computer and a high end gaming PC. If you want both, you have no choice but to get a windows machine.

I don’t want to use windows for any of my development work or even basic computing tasks, so owning a $2K+ gaming rig is a bit of waste since, as much I love gaming, I’m not a hardcore gamer.

 

[EntropyQ3]

there being millions dosent mean it's worth the investment. do you invest for a 5% market or 95% market. we will see. i wait for the day

iOS is far smaller than Android, yet generates larger game revenue (and profits). Reaching 100 million AS users might take 3 more years, but software projects take time too. Those 100 million users are overwhelmingly people who "own" the machine as opposed to corporate/administrative bulk systems and thus can install games if they want. But no longer via Boot Camp.

There will be money lying on that table. I hope it won’t all be taken by gacha games fishing for whales.