Star Trek: Alpha to Delta Quadrants & Everything In Between

[phrehdd]

Another Voyager episode that was a good combination of science fiction and a humanist story was "Course Oblivion." This was tied to a previous episode and hard to mention the plot without ruining the story line so those that like Voyager, make sure to see it. I'll also add that it did have a flaw in the mechanics of the story line but if one is willing to let go a bit it is a very nice bit of story telling. In fact, I would say it had a touch of Bradbury and Asimov in the mix.

I have mentioned at times I do not like the idea of the queen of the Borg as I found it counter to the very thing that made the Borg such a scary nemesis as it was without conscience, ability to negotiate, and no emotions. The queen of course was a nasty piece of work that had lots of emotions (and seemed to have died in another story line elsewhere). However, because she now exists in the S.T. world, I though that the ending episodes to Voyager made very good use of the character and of course Janeway's 'addiction' (sorry couldn't resist) to breaking the temporal directive. I would say for an ending to a Star Trek series, it was one of the better ones with a sense of purpose and closure. Of course they could perhaps have put an epilogue in for those that wanted more granularity.

 

[obeygiant]

If you need a laugh here is William Shatner as a guest star on Police Squad. lol

I swear that gets funnier every time I watch it

 

[mobilehaathi]

Another Voyager episode that was a good combination of science fiction and a humanist story was "Course Oblivion." This was tied to a previous episode and hard to mention the plot without ruining the story line so those that like Voyager, make sure to see it. I'll also add that it did have a flaw in the mechanics of the story line but if one is willing to let go a bit it is a very nice bit of story telling. In fact, I would say it had a touch of Bradbury and Asimov in the mix.

I have mentioned at times I do not like the idea of the queen of the Borg as I found it counter to the very thing that made the Borg such a scary nemesis as it was without conscience, ability to negotiate, and no emotions. The queen of course was a nasty piece of work that had lots of emotions (and seemed to have died in another story line elsewhere). However, because she now exists in the S.T. world, I though that the ending episodes to Voyager made very good use of the character and of course Janeway's 'addiction' (sorry couldn't resist) to breaking the temporal directive. I would say for an ending to a Star Trek series, it was one of the better ones with a sense of purpose and closure. Of course they could perhaps have put an epilogue in for those that wanted more granularity.

I thought the introduction of a queen was not only unnecessary, but it fundamentally changed the nature of the Borg. They were far more terrifying as a decentralised collective hell bent on absorbing everything in their path.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I thought the introduction of a queen was not only unnecessary, but it fundamentally changed the nature of the Borg. They were far more terrifying as a decentralised collective hell bent on absorbing everything in their path.

I agree; as a decentralised collective - a 'hive mind' in humanoid form - they were terrifying.

However, given the 'bee' and 'wasp' theme (rather than a more ominous termite or ant theme that such a collective hive mind might suggest) - that the hive mind may have been partially derived from (or developed into), biologically, the character of having a (powerful) queen is not an impossibility - bees and wasps have queens, and powerful ones, at that - and not utterly implausible. However, I just don't think that they executed it all that well.

From a narrative point of view, she didn't need to have to have a personal interest in Jean-Luc Picard, - least of all as a future mate (as a woman, I tire of seeing women depicted only in the context of relationships that they might form, or have, or desire, or regret rather than as individuals with independent agency and agendas), or, anything other than as an interesting tool potentially useful for the integration of an unexpectedly complex and challenging race (humanity) into the Borg collective.

 

[AngerDanger]

I just started TNG season three, episode ten. It opens with Picard enthusiastically directing Data in a Shakespearian holodeck performance, and it's pretty adorable—also interesting given Patrick Stewart's origin as an actor.

 

[mobilehaathi]

I just started TNG season three, episode ten. It opens with Picard enthusiastically directing Data in a Shakespearian holodeck performance, and it's pretty adorable—also interesting given Patrick Stewart's origin as an actor.

They do this at least one more time, preforming a scene from The Tempest.

 

[Number-Six]

I agree; as a decentralised collective - a 'hive mind' in humanoid form - they were terrifying.

However, given the 'bee' and 'wasp' theme (rather than a more ominous termite or ant theme that such a collective hive mind might suggest) - that the hive mind may have been partially derived from (or developed into), biologically, the character of having a (powerful) queen is not an impossibility - bees and wasps have queens, and powerful ones, at that - and not utterly implausible. However, I just don't think that they executed it all that well.

From a narrative point of view, she didn't need to have to have a personal interest in Jean-Luc Picard, - least of all as a future mate (as a woman, I tire of seeing women depicted only in the context of relationships that they might form, or have, or desire, or regret rather than as individuals with independent agency and agendas), or, anything other than as an interesting tool potentially useful for the integration of an unexpectedly complex and challenging race (humanity) into the Borg collective.

I do not remember the queen being after a mate. She was looking for someone who would give themselves willingly to the borg and be her counterpart.

 

[AngerDanger]

I thought Trekkies might find this two-minute video interesting. In it, linguist-turned video editor/computer scientist/presenter Tom Scott (who looks like @arkitect's avatar with less hair) explains why so many Hollywood productions, Star Trek specifically, have similar looking alien planets.

His articulacy and slick production make most of his videos enjoyable.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I do not remember the queen being after a mate. She was looking for someone who would give themselves willingly to the borg and be her counterpart.

Queen bees and queen wasps don't look for "counter-parts"; they don't need to, and they don't need them, and neither - to my mind - did the Borg Queen. Rather, queen bees and queen wasps are autocrats - large, powerful and commanding - who exercise complete control over their hives.

For the movie to be successful - to my my mind - with this plot device - the queen should have been more powerful, more alien, less human.

Part of the reason the episodes "The Best of Both Worlds Parts I-II" (and the powerful third episode of that story arc "Family") were so compelling was that for all of his urbane courage, culture, erudition, education, experience, - Captain Picard could do nothing when the Borg kidnapped him, and assimilated him against his will, violating his psychological and physical integrity and autonomy when they did so.

Picard's horrified and traumatised helplessness - and powerlessness - in the face of what was being done to him against his will as he was deliberately made over into a means (and worse, a sufficiently self-aware one to know what was happening) of ensuring the destruction of everything he had worked for, valued and believed in all of his professional and personal life was spell-binding - (and brilliantly realised by Patrick Stewart - whose intelligent and thoughtful portrayal of the character gave STNG an extraordinary depth that has meant that the best episodes - and there were many - stand the text of time).

The Borg Queen was insufficiently alien, and insufficiently terrifying to work as a plot device; humanising her belittled the Borg, female roles, and indeed, subtly made Picard himself less compelling.

If this is the plot line that had to be used, I would have liked to have seen a truly terrifying, exceptionally powerful individual - physically, mentally, and psychologically - who was entirely committed to the pursuit of a future defined by what was good for the Borg.

 

[phrehdd]

I think there have been a good handful of character-species screws up in the ST Universe(s). I believe that Enterprise made some mistakes with how they handled Vulcans. They took a bit of license with some original "back story" of the Vulcans and somewhat butchered it. The reason Spock could have emotions was due to being only half Vulcan and there is no excuse for the extremes of Vulcan emotions showed at times in Enterprise. I think it was Robert Fox who played the out of control Vulcan with rage, hate and more. (He also was a character in another S.T. role.)

Anyone else recall other 'suspect' changes of characters or their back stories of in fact, their species?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I think there have been a good handful of character-species screws up in the ST Universe(s). I believe that Enterprise made some mistakes with how they handled Vulcans. They took a bit of license with some original "back story" of the Vulcans and somewhat butchered it. The reason Spock could have emotions was due to being only half Vulcan and there is no excuse for the extremes of Vulcan emotions showed at times in Enterprise. I think it was Robert Fox who played the out of control Vulcan with rage, hate and more. (He also was a character in another S.T. role.)

Anyone else recall other 'suspect' changes of characters or their back stories of in fact, their species?

That conflict - between his Vulcan half (and the Vulcan values that he aspired to) and his human half (which he sought to suppress though he clearly adored his mother, who encouraged him in acknowledging his humanity) was part of what made Spock such a compelling character (played superbly, and with a subtle and intelligent insight, by Leonard Nimoy).

Re Enterprise, I really didn't like "Enterprise" at all, I have to say. I never warmed to Scott Bakula as Captain Archer - he was by far the weakest commanding officer as a character, a cliché, and never - to my mind - was able to 'carry' the series, unlike every single previous captain: Whatever their faults (whether as actors, or as fully conceived characters) nobody doubted the command credibility of Kirk, Picard, Sisko, or Janeway.

The cast who played the crew were shamefully under-utilised, - Star Trek at its best was an example of excellent ensemble acting, and Enterprise failed that test, too.

Moreover, it got the 'tone' wrong; arrogant Vulcans are completely credible, but at least try to have this in conformity with - and augmenting and adding to - our understanding of their culture, rather than violating core precepts.

 

[phrehdd]

Enterprise - a mix bag of very good, very bad and "I'm not sure this is a good idea."

I'll say I found Enterprise to be flawed on multiple levels. However, I did like it probably more than most people who found issue with the series. I let some of my dislikes go because I realize there is no "Federation" template to work
with but on the other hand, it doesn't excuse some bad ideas as well as breaking some continuity in the Trek Universe (Klingons, really?).

As it is easy to list dislikes and problems, I'll simply add the first thing that bothered me about the show - the sets. How is it possible that in the 1960's, decades ago, they realize that people live on these ships so they need to be designed to allow people to focus on their tasks and be neutral - thus Enterprise had hallways that were bright as well as areas where people work. "Enterprise" looked like a cross of a submarine, a freighter and a 1940's large military plane. - Everything looks like muted shade of grey and moderately lighting to dim. That design is the cheapest ploy to show a more primitive Enterprise space ship. Living on a ship like that could make anyone depressed and want to beam themselves out into space after being on it a few months. One would imagine that in the future (our future) they would take into consideration environment for long travel time. The Enterprise interior sets - major fail.

 

[Mousse]

I agree; as a decentralised collective - a 'hive mind' in humanoid form - they were terrifying.

However, given the 'bee' and 'wasp' theme (rather than a more ominous termite or ant theme that such a collective hive mind might suggest) - that the hive mind may have been partially derived from (or developed into), biologically, the character of having a (powerful) queen is not an impossibility - bees and wasps have queens, and powerful ones, at that - and not utterly implausible. However, I just don't think that they executed it all that well.

My thoughts exactly. It's uncertain whether the collective bends to the will of the queen or vice versa, but they way they wrote it, it seems the collective followed the queen's directives. They give her an individual personality. That runs counter the Borg mythos; and frankly, ruined the character for me. The queen shouldn't control the collective, but should have facilitated the functioning of hive mind. She should have been one voice in the collective, not THE voice of the collective.

As it is easy to list dislikes and problems, I'll simply add the first thing that bothered me about the show - the sets. How is it possible that in the 1960's, decades ago, they realize that people live on these ships so they need to be designed to allow people to focus on their tasks and be neutral - thus Enterprise had hallways that were bright as well as areas where people work. "Enterprise" looked like a cross of a submarine, a freighter and a 1940's large military plane. - Everything looks like muted shade of grey and moderately lighting to dim. That design is the cheapest ploy to show a more primitive Enterprise space ship. Living on a ship like that could make anyone depressed and want to beam themselves out into space after being on it a few months.

I use the power of suspending belief to make it work. Enterprise is a prototype vessel, hence the NX-01, not NCC-01. They will gussy it up after the get everything working.

 

[ActionableMango]

I like that there were serious design compromises in NX-01 Enterprise--for example how awkward and janky it was to get in and out of the shuttles. That took a lot more effort in set-building than just having a big room and calling it a shuttle bay. You can also see in the next prototype, NX-02, that the bridge is larger and has more lighting--so they are already improving the design even within the same series of sister ships.

I also like, story-wise, that they were overpowered in almost every single matchup. And it was a nice touch that damage from sphere anomalies and battles were visible from episode to episode and increased from time to time, even if it was limited to the exterior.

In contrast Voyager, for example, seemed unrealistically nice after years of wear and tear, not to mention vicious damage from combat. They can spare the time and energy for fresh parts, carpet, paint, and panels after every single battle? Regardless of how rough they have it, the ship is always white-glove perfect in the next episode? No wonder the crew is constantly on replicator food rationing--there was a blemish in the carpet that needed to be fixed.

I give Enterprise-D a pass because unlike NX-01 and Voyager, the TNG crew were not out there alone with no Starbases. We see Enterprise-D vising planets and starbases all the time. There are even entire episodes dedicated to routine maintenance.

 

[Roller]

I like that there were serious design compromises in NX-01 Enterprise--for example how awkward and janky it was to get in and out of the shuttles. That took a lot more effort in set-building than just having a big room and calling it a shuttle bay. You can also see in the next prototype, NX-02, that the bridge is larger and has more lighting--so they are already improving the design even within the same series of sister ships.

I also like, story-wise, that they were overpowered in almost every single matchup. And it was a nice touch that damage from sphere anomalies and battles were visible from episode to episode and increased from time to time, even if it was limited to the exterior.

In contrast Voyager, for example, seemed unrealistically nice after years of wear and tear, not to mention vicious damage from combat. They can spare the time and energy for fresh parts, carpet, paint, and panels after every single battle? Regardless of how rough they have it, the ship is always white-glove perfect in the next episode? No wonder the crew is constantly on replicator food rationing--there was a blemish in the carpet that needed to be fixed.

I give Enterprise-D a pass because unlike NX-01 and Voyager, the TNG crew were not out there alone with no Starbases. We see Enterprise-D vising planets and starbases all the time. There are even entire episodes dedicated to routine maintenance.

Those are valid points. One could theorize that later versions of the Enterprise were constructed of materials that were much more resistant to damage, scuffing, and so on than earlier ones, so they almost never needed refurbishing or even cleaned themselves.

It's been interesting to see how the engineering section has evolved from TOS though the ongoing film reboot. The first movies in that series made engineering look too much like a factory, IMO, with too many pipes, stairs, and scaffolds.

 

[ActionableMango]

It's been interesting to see how the engineering section has evolved from TOS though the ongoing film reboot. The first movies in that series made engineering look too much like a factory, IMO, with too many pipes, stairs, and scaffolds.

Yes, I thought it was an awkward scene where Scotty is trapped in gigantic tubes of water in a warehouse-sized room. That set seems apt in some sort of water processing plant, not a starship. So the set felt really out of place, and the scene itself felt like unnecessary comic relief.

 

[ActionableMango]

In an interesting coincidence of timing, I just finished up a binge-rewatch of Enterprise. I had forgotten that the last episode was heavily related to the TNG episode The Pegasus. That episode is probably in my top third of TNG.

If you liked TNG but you didn't like or watch Enterprise, I recommend that you at least watch the last episode of Enterprise.

SPOLIERS!

Much of the episode shows background information about Riker and his trouble choosing between his former and current commanding officers. It was great to see the Enterprise D and some of the TNG cast again.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

In an interesting coincidence of timing, I just finished up a binge-rewatch of Enterprise. I had forgotten that the last episode was heavily related to the TNG episode The Pegasus. That episode is probably in my top third of TNG.

If you liked TNG but you didn't like or watch Enterprise, I recommend that you at least watch the last episode of Enterprise.

SPOLIERS!

Much of the episode shows background information about Riker and his trouble choosing between his former and current commanding officers. It was great to see the Enterprise D and some of the TNG cast again.

What is the actual episode called?

 

[ActionableMango]

What is the actual episode called?

The last Enterprise episode is "These Are the Voyages".

Spoilers

It is set in the Enterprise-D, including many scenes where Riker uses the Holodeck to participate in an Enterprise NX-01 event set a few years after the "normal" Enterprise series. Perhaps that was a convoluted explanation.

 

[mobilehaathi]

The last Enterprise episode is "These Are the Voyages".

Spoilers

It is set in the Enterprise-D, including many scenes where Riker uses the Holodeck to participate in an Enterprise NX-01 event set a few years after the "normal" Enterprise series. Perhaps that was a convoluted explanation.

You know, if you click the plus and choose "spoiler" you can shroud whatever spoilers you wish to write.

Spoiler

like this

 

[ActionableMango]

You know, if you click the plus and choose "spoiler" you can shroud whatever spoilers you wish to write.

Spoiler

like this

Thanks!

I actually learned two things, because I accidentally clicked on "your location" and found out that on MacRumors these are links to Google Maps:

 

[mobilehaathi]

Thanks!

I actually learned two things, because I accidentally clicked on "your location" and found out that on MacRumors these are links to Google Maps:

View attachment 699334

Hehe, I guess they assume physical location....

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Hehe, I guess they assume physical location....

Yes, there is a place of the mind, too.....isn't there?

 

[obeygiant]

 

[IronWaffle]

I suppose since I backed the forthcoming Deep Space Nine documentary (just at the level to get a copy) then this thread is a "safe space final frontier". Tell NO one.