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mobilehaathi

macrumors G3
Aug 19, 2008
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The Anthropocene
Well, I've recently been watching episodes from TNG season 2, and there are more good ones than I had remembered. "Elementary, Dear Data" is a fun one, and I thought "Loud as a Whisper," "The Schizoid Man," and "A Matter of Honor" to be quite good episodes as well. And lest we forget, season 2 contains the excellent "The Measure of a Man."

Looking forward to the rest of the season...
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
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Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Well, I've recently been watching episodes from TNG season 2, and there are more good ones than I had remembered. "Elementary, Dear Data" is a fun one, and I thought "Loud as a Whisper," "The Schizoid Man," and "A Matter of Honor" to be quite good episodes as well. And lest we forget, season 2 contains the excellent "The Measure of a Man."

Looking forward to the rest of the season...

Excellent post.

Apart from "The Measure of a Man" - which I thought brilliant, a very powerful episode with an excellent story, terrific acting, and a first rate script - an aside, this episode shows you don't need CGI and expensive pyrotechnics to tell a great story in a space setting - I had forgotten the others.

And yes, I admit that I did remember "Elementary, Dear Data" (which showed the STNG cast becoming much more comfortable in their roles, as they were able to assume other roles - a full appreciation of which depended on audience knowledge of their primary roles).

However, the others I had forgotten - and had to look them up.

"Loud as a Whisper" was very good, and it is always interesting to pick up snippets of Data's past - or what became his past - "The Schizoid Man".

Actually, I hadn't known until I read about the episode that the character of Ira Graves was originally supposed to have been played by Patrick McGoohan - who was one of my favourite actors.
 

maflynn

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May 3, 2009
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The one thing that bugged me about the Star Trek universe was their constant reliance on time travel as a story line. They dabbled with in TNG, Did it once or so in TOS, some in DS9. Enterprise, it seemed like a constant theme. Voyager, seemed to have too much of it, but yet with that said, I found The Voyager's "Year of Hell" parts I and II to be two great episodes.
 

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macrumors Haswell
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Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
The one thing that bugged me about the Star Trek universe was their constant reliance on time travel as a story line. They dabbled with in TNG, Did it once or so in TOS, some in DS9. Enterprise, it seemed like a constant theme. Voyager, seemed to have too much of it, but yet with that said, I found The Voyager's "Year of Hell" parts I and II to be two great episodes.

Time travel, done intelligently, or in a manner that is thought-provoking, is not something I have an issue with.

Some of the very best - and most gripping - shows that I saw in the past decade on British TV had that theme - very compellingly treated - as a core concept - namely, "Life on Mars" and "Ashes to Ashes".

But, my bugbear with STNG was the wretched holodeck; to my mind, holodeck malfunctions happened far too often - had that happened on a real spaceship the holodeck would have been out of bounds until repaired (with those repairs tested endlessly); actually, while it was used intelligently (those Sherlock Holmes episodes), to my mind, it was also relied on far too often (and lazily) by script-writers.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
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Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Anyone care to comment on Q?

I must say that I thought some (not all) of his episodes in STNG very funny.

And - on a related but separate topic - I loved Vash; "Captain's Holiday" was very, very funny. (As was "Qpid").
 

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macrumors Haswell
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he is an amazing troll, wish I was that good :p

He is an infuriating troll.

Actually, when I first saw some of those episodes, I didn't much care for the character, but he sort of grew on me, to the extent that I could see how funny (clever and witty) he was; the actor (John de Lancie) was excellent, portraying him as glib, articulate, manipulative, a somewhat amoral teacher, but gifted with wonderful lines.
[doublepost=1510252343][/doublepost]
Q isn’t allowed in PRSI anymore.

I’m sorry. Still too soon?

Q would have been right at home in PRSI.
 

jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
998
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Criminal Mexi Midget
Q isn’t allowed in PRSI anymore.

I’m sorry. Still too soon?
TOO soon

pout.gif

[doublepost=1510254094][/doublepost]
He is an infuriating troll.

Actually, when I first saw some of those episodes, I didn't much care for the character, but he sort of grew on me, to the extent that I could see how funny (clever and witty) he was; the actor (John de Lancie) was excellent, portraying him as glib, articulate, manipulative, a somewhat amoral teacher, but gifted with wonderful lines.
[doublepost=1510252343][/doublepost]

Q would have been right at home in PRSI.
did you watch "death wish" yet? how about "all good things"??
yeah I liked Q.
 
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macrumors Haswell
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Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
TOO soon

pout.gif

[doublepost=1510254094][/doublepost]
did you watch "death wish" yet? how about "all good things"??
yeah I liked Q.

I should have known that Q would resonate with you.

"All Good Things", yes, of course I remember that episode.

Re "Death Wish" - no, I haven't seen it; I don't own a TV, and - as I have lived abroad and worked abroad for years over the past decade (or two), there are whole years of TV that I have missed. (Not that I was ever evangelical about watching TV - apart from the news - but I did watch STNG religiously, so religiously, that I even re-scheduled classes I was to teach to second chance students in order not to miss it; it was easier to re-schedule classes - not that this was the explanation I vouchsafed to the university bureaucracy - than to learn the complications of trying to master a VTR machine.)

So, DS9, - I missed much of that, and am more than aware that it got really good; likewise, Voyager; I missed years of that, and would have liked to have been able to see it.

Enterprise, well, I was never enthused about it, as discussed earlier.
 
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jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
998
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Criminal Mexi Midget
I should have known that Q would resonate with you.

"All Good Things", yes, of course I remember that episode.

Re "Death Wish" - no, I haven't seen it; I don't own a TV, and - as I have loved abroad and worked abroad for years over the past decade (or two), there are whole years of TV that I have missed. (Not that I was ever evangelical about watching TV - apart from the news - but I did watch STNG religiously, so religiously, that I even re-scheduled classes I was to teach to second chance students in order not to miss it; it was easier to re-schedule classes - not that this was the explanation I vouchsafed to the university bureaucracy - than to learn the complications of trying to master a VTR machine.)

So, DS9, - I missed much of that, and am more than aware that it got really good; likewise, Voyager; I missed years of that, and would have liked to have been able to see it.

Enterprise, well, I was never enthused about it, as discussed earlier.
YEAH enterprise just did not do it for me. I liked "death wish" , it showed the drawbacks of being a Q.
 
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mobilehaathi

macrumors G3
Aug 19, 2008
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The Anthropocene
YEAH enterprise just did not do it for me. I liked "death wish" , it showed the drawbacks of being a Q.
Indeed, this was a Voyager episode if I remember correctly, and it was about a Q who couldn't fathom being alive forever (after billions of years of existence) and simply wished to die. The other Q would have none of that nonsense, and Voyager ends up mediating the dispute.
 

ActionableMango

macrumors G3
Sep 21, 2010
9,612
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So, DS9, - I missed much of that, and am more than aware that it got really good; likewise, Voyager; I missed years of that, and would have liked to have been able to see it.

Considering how much you like TNG, it seems tragic to me that you haven't caught DS9 (and to a lesser extent, VOY). You can watch these now without a television and I encourage you to do so at some point.

P.S. If you are a TNG fan you should watch at least one episode of VOY. Remember in TNG's "The Price" where two Ferengi get stuck in the Delta Quadrant by being on the wrong side of a supposedly-stable wormhole when it collapsed? Well in VOY "False Profits" we get to see what happened to them. It is a fun episode.
 
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jkcerda

macrumors 6502a
Jun 10, 2013
998
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.
Considering how much you like TNG, it seems tragic to me that you haven't caught DS9 (and to a lesser extent, VOY). You can watch these now without a television and I encourage you to do so at some point.

P.S. If you are a TNG fan you should watch at least one episode of VOY. Remember in TNG's "The Price" where two Ferengi get stuck in the Delta Quadrant by being on the wrong side of a supposedly-stable wormhole when it collapsed? Well in VOY "False Profits" we get to see what happened to them. It is a fun episode.
loved Garak on DS9, talk about cloak & dagger
 

840quadra

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Staff member
Feb 1, 2005
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Twin Cities Minnesota
The one thing that bugged me about the Star Trek universe was their constant reliance on time travel as a story line. They dabbled with in TNG, Did it once or so in TOS, some in DS9. Enterprise, it seemed like a constant theme. Voyager, seemed to have too much of it, but yet with that said, I found The Voyager's "Year of Hell" parts I and II to be two great episodes.
That and the Equinox episodes are my favorite from voyager. The later had nothing to do with time travel though.

I actually like that little ship that beat up Voyager so much, that it became (the Nova Class) my favorite ship to use on STO (Star Trek Online).

Wow, amazed I never discovered this thread! I tend to have ST series episodes on speed dial on my Netflix devices, and usually have a few full episodes of iTunes versions on any iPad traveling with me.

Great thread!
 

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macrumors Haswell
Original poster
Jul 29, 2008
65,135
47,525
In a coffee shop.
Well, I've recently been watching episodes from TNG season 2, and there are more good ones than I had remembered. "Elementary, Dear Data" is a fun one, and I thought "Loud as a Whisper," "The Schizoid Man," and "A Matter of Honor" to be quite good episodes as well. And lest we forget, season 2 contains the excellent "The Measure of a Man."

Looking forward to the rest of the season...

I also liked "Pen Pals" - a rather sweet role for Brent Spiner as Data - and the excellent "The Emissary" (Suzie Plakson as 'K'Ehleyr' was a fantastic character, witty, brave, smart, decent and I would have loved to have seen more of her) in Season Two.
 
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Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
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The Misty Mountains
The one thing that bugged me about the Star Trek universe was their constant reliance on time travel as a story line. They dabbled with in TNG, Did it once or so in TOS, some in DS9. Enterprise, it seemed like a constant theme. Voyager, seemed to have too much of it, but yet with that said, I found The Voyager's "Year of Hell" parts I and II to be two great episodes.

I find time travel stories to be intriguing despite the perceived paradoxes and admit the viewer is put into the position of going with the flow, ie, accepting the narrative at face value without putting too much thought into it. I usually have problems when the stories get complicated and involve parallel dimensions.

A great example of a go with the flow paradox is in Interstellar where a message from the future gives the coordinates of an important location, a message sent by the person, basically to themselves from the future, when at the original time, they had no clue a base existed. But how did they get into space? They found the base. ;)

My impression of time travel, which some of these stories has shown, is a radically changed present as a result of going back in time. This is what would make time travel far to impractical if there was any intention of returning to a future you recognize.

Time travel, done intelligently, or in a manner that is thought-provoking, is not something I have an issue with.

Some of the very best - and most gripping - shows that I saw in the past decade on British TV had that theme - very compellingly treated - as a core concept - namely, "Life on Mars" and "Ashes to Ashes".

But, my bugbear with STNG was the wretched holodeck; to my mind, holodeck malfunctions happened far too often - had that happened on a real spaceship the holodeck would have been out of bounds until repaired (with those repairs tested endlessly); actually, while it was used intelligently (those Sherlock Holmes episodes), to my mind, it was also relied on far too often (and lazily) by script-writers.

Agreed, the idea of a device that with a malfunction could erraticate all occupants would be troubling, and doubtful it would ever be available for routine use, but a good mechanism for story telling imo. :)

Anyone care to comment on Q?

I must say that I thought some (not all) of his episodes in STNG very funny.

And - on a related but separate topic - I loved Vash; "Captain's Holiday" was very, very funny. (As was "Qpid").

Q was the single best character in the series. He ushered the series in and out, provided semi-regular challenges for the crew and was very entertaining. He had a presence. The series final was profound, exilerating, and he was right in the middle of it. The concept of an event perceived in different points in the past, by the same person, the desire to investigate it, and by doing so cause the event to occur, which threatened our existence, amazed and excited me. Probably the single best time paradox story ever!

My impression is that the Q Continuim had the inconceivable ability to alter reality as we know it, and Q used this as the ultimate test to determine if humans, epspecifically Picard was worthy of existence. What does that make Q in the big picture? Almost, if not, God like.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
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I find time travel stories to be intriguing despite the perceived paradoxes and admit the viewer is put into the position of going with the flow, ie, accepting the narrative at face value without putting too much thought into it. I usually have problems when the stories get complicated and involve parallel dimensions.
I'm not against time travel, but in the case of Star Trek, it seemed to turn into a lazy option to introduce changes or just re-tell a once successful story. I think the Star Trek Enterprise epitomizes this by its heavy reliance on time travel a central theme to the series. They had an opportunity to introduce brand new story lines and issues, but instead we got a time traveling bad guy
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Original poster
Jul 29, 2008
65,135
47,525
In a coffee shop.
I'm not against time travel, but in the case of Star Trek, it seemed to turn into a lazy option to introduce changes or just re-tell a once successful story. I think the Star Trek Enterprise epitomizes this by its heavy reliance on time travel a central theme to the series. They had an opportunity to introduce brand new story lines and issues, but instead we got a time traveling bad guy

Done properly - as with "Yesterday's Enterprise" (a superlative episode) - or "Mirror Mirror" in the original Star Trek (a stunning episode) the use of time travelling mechanisms to allow for the telling of a particular story can work exceptionally well.

But, firstly, @maflynn, I agree with you, when it is overused, and abused, it becomes a lazy cliché.

And secondly, for it to work, the story that the time travel facilitates must be worth telling in itself; thus, the story is not time travel, it is what happens when the familiar universe is stripped away and challenging, threatening, alternatives are presented.

What do Our Heroes do then? Are they true to themselves, or to the values of the world they are currently (whether knowingly or not) visiting or inhabiting?
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
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Done properly - as with "Yesterday's Enterprise" (a superlative episode)
That's probably one of my favorite TNG episodes, so yes. Time travel can introduce some intriguing stories and trials for the protagonists. Like I said above, Voyager's Year of Hell is one such example as well.

Of course the flip side in the star trek universe, is we seem to get a steady diet of a time travelers showing up telling the protagonist he can't say anything because he'll disrupt the time line, but then eventually he actually does. He also helps the crew achieve a certain end result and then tells them not say anything (temporal prime directive). That gets old rather quick.
 

Huntn

macrumors Core
May 5, 2008
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The Misty Mountains
I'm not against time travel, but in the case of Star Trek, it seemed to turn into a lazy option to introduce changes or just re-tell a once successful story. I think the Star Trek Enterprise epitomizes this by its heavy reliance on time travel a central theme to the series. They had an opportunity to introduce brand new story lines and issues, but instead we got a time traveling bad guy
Can I assume you are referencing back to back Star Trek series? I remember a time early in Voyager where they did a chicken or the egg time paradox story and I was dissapointed because I had already seen this in STNG. I wanted new concepts, not repeats. :)
 
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