Start of marketing for Nikon mirrorless FF

[Cybbe]

I'd abandon Fuji and hop on a Nikon mirrorless in a heartbeat. If it's sized right. And from anything I've seen, it won't be.

I don't think you'll find such a compromise outside of the rangefinder world, which of course comes with it's own issues (and is rather expensive).

A full frame camera will necessarily be rather large. Even the smaller first generation Sony A7 had some size to it, and since then models have become bigger to accommodate new features (IBIS, battery etc), a trade many are willing to make. And the size of lenses are to a large extent decided by physics. Even for smaller sensor systems, such as Fuji X, lenses get large once they try to match the output of semi-fast full frame lenses (Fuji 56mm F 1.2 is not much smaller than Sony 85mm 1.8, which produces similar photos from an optical point of view).

As many Nikon users seem to value a large grip and some heft, I doubt their focus will be to make the smallest, most portable camera. Rumours abound of very fast lenses as well (F 1.2), which won't be small.

If you want a portable full frame setup which is cheap, the best option is the first gen Sony A7 (which has some issues, admittedly) paired with old manual focus lenses. If you want AF, then M43 is probably the cheapest and smallest you can get.

 

[bunnspecial]

As many Nikon users seem to value a large grip and some heft, I doubt their focus will be to make the smallest, most portable camera. Rumours abound of very fast lenses as well (F 1.2), which won't be small.

Yep-fast lenses that cover a 24x36mm frame aren't small.

I go back to the f/.95 for the Canon 7. The 7 has a standard LTM mount as used on tiny Leica III series(and Canon II/IV that were obviously inspired by the III). None the less, the Canon 7 is a BIG camera-it's roughly the same size as the Canonflex RM SLR. The special bayonet mount for the .95 takes up a lot of that space, and the camera with the .95 on it makes for quite an imposing piece. I've used my Canon 7 with a collapsible Elmar(I don't have a .95) and it's almost comically small on the camera. My Summaron doesn't look much better.

 

[fathergll]

I don't see a major need for anyone to jump on this system for a while unless somehow Nikon knocks this out of the ballpark which I can't see them doing on a first gen product. Sony has years of R&D into their system(camera+lenses).


The marketing on this product is silly. Nikon is acting like this is some kind of new tech that will change photography when it's just the same tech it's competitors have been using for years.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I don't see a major need for anyone to jump on this system for a while unless somehow Nikon knocks this out of the ballpark which I can't see them doing on a first gen product. Sony has years of R&D into their system(camera+lenses).


The marketing on this product is silly. Nikon is acting like this is some kind of new tech that will change photography when it's just the same tech it's competitors have been using for years.

As many have said online I believe the marketing message is 'Don't switch to Sony. Something good is coming!'

But agree I'll not be queuing up at launch.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about tbh. A better UI would be better than removing the mirror imo.

 

[Ray2]

I don't think you'll find such a compromise outside of the rangefinder world, which of course comes with it's own issues (and is rather expensive).

A full frame camera will necessarily be rather large. Even the smaller first generation Sony A7 had some size to it, and since then models have become bigger to accommodate new features (IBIS, battery etc), a trade many are willing to make. And the size of lenses are to a large extent decided by physics. Even for smaller sensor systems, such as Fuji X, lenses get large once they try to match the output of semi-fast full frame lenses (Fuji 56mm F 1.2 is not much smaller than Sony 85mm 1.8, which produces similar photos from an optical point of view).

As many Nikon users seem to value a large grip and some heft, I doubt their focus will be to make the smallest, most portable camera. Rumours abound of very fast lenses as well (F 1.2), which won't be small.

If you want a portable full frame setup which is cheap, the best option is the first gen Sony A7 (which has some issues, admittedly) paired with old manual focus lenses. If you want AF, then M43 is probably the cheapest and smallest you can get.

Yes, the realities of life. So I ordered my first m4/3 a few days ago: GX85, 12-32 and 15/1.7. I shoot Fuji but curious about m4/3, especially having IBIS for primes in a small package.

 

[fathergll]

As many have said online I believe the marketing message is 'Don't switch to Sony. Something good is coming!'

But agree I'll not be queuing up at launch.
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about tbh. A better UI would be better than removing the mirror imo.

Knowing Sony they will counter with something new to take the shine off(A7SIII anyone?)

 

[Clix Pix]

Just having bought two new Sonys in July (RX100 Mark VI and just a few days ago the RX10 Mark IV) I looked at my camera gear and realized that I am slowly becoming more of a "Sony Girl" than a Nikon girl, as I have a NEX-7 (and a few lenses), the RX100 Mark V, a small waterproof P&S (I think it is T-30?) and a HX90V.....

From what I've seen as rumors and so on, I have the feeling that Nikon's new offerings in mirrorless camera bodies and probably two or three new lenses are going to be somewhat expensive and rather disappointing for my particular shooting preferences. Yes, Sony has been in this mirrorless game for a long time and their products are refined and time-tested. Nikon, just coming in now with this may or may not hit anything out of the ballpark and they very well may have come into the whole mirrorless scene too late. I daresay a lot of long-time Nikon users have either switched completely to other manufacturers' systems or have experimented with using two different systems (retaining their Nikon gear while using an additional set of lenses and camera body).... 4/3 and Mirrorless have been quite successful and once someone has found a system that works well for them it may be unlikely that they change again or return to Nikon if they've been away for a while and no longer have a bunch of lenses and a sense of loyalty to Nikon.....

 

[Apple fanboy]

Just having bought two new Sonys in July (RX100 Mark VI and just a few days ago the RX10 Mark IV) I looked at my camera gear and realized that I am slowly becoming more of a "Sony Girl" than a Nikon girl, as I have a NEX-7 (and a few lenses), the RX100 Mark V, a small waterproof P&S (I think it is T-30?) and a HX90V.....

From what I've seen as rumors and so on, I have the feeling that Nikon's new offerings in mirrorless camera bodies and probably two or three new lenses are going to be somewhat expensive and rather disappointing for my particular shooting preferences. Yes, Sony has been in this mirrorless game for a long time and their products are refined and time-tested. Nikon, just coming in now with this may or may not hit anything out of the ballpark and they very well may have come into the whole mirrorless scene too late. I daresay a lot of long-time Nikon users have either switched completely to other manufacturers' systems or have experimented with using two different systems (retaining their Nikon gear while using an additional set of lenses and camera body).... 4/3 and Mirrorless have been quite successful and once someone has found a system that works well for them it may be unlikely that they change again or return to Nikon if they've been away for a while and no longer have a bunch of lenses and a sense of loyalty to Nikon.....

I think that's a very likely scenario for a lot of people. As I have said more than once the rush to drop the mirror doesn't offer me any real benefits for taking photos. As a hobbiest, I'm not about to drop 5-6k on a new system even if it's Nikon.
I'll keep on using my mirror box and I'll let others be the beta testers. However I'll watch with interest to see what they produce!

 

[OreoCookie]

From what I've seen as rumors and so on, I have the feeling that Nikon's new offerings in mirrorless camera bodies and probably two or three new lenses are going to be somewhat expensive and rather disappointing for my particular shooting preferences. Yes, Sony has been in this mirrorless game for a long time and their products are refined and time-tested. Nikon, just coming in now with this may or may not hit anything out of the ballpark and they very well may have come into the whole mirrorless scene too late.

I think they are definitely too late, and if they only release mirrorless cameras with full frame sensor, they'll price a big portion of customers out of the market. Moreover, I expect Nikon to be extreeemely conservative when it comes to other design aspects, instead of taking the risks they need to take with user interface design and camera software.

Why doesn't have any camera manufacturer a software policy like Apple and Google do:
- Have all cameras run essentially the same version of “camera OS”.
- Allow third-party apps in curated app stores.
- Don't do any update BS, i. e. don't artificially limit updates to recently released models.
- Have GPS, wifi and other modern connectivity built into the camera.

I have zero hope that Nikon will do this, but that'd be one way to distinguish themselves.

I daresay a lot of long-time Nikon users have either switched completely to other manufacturers' systems or have experimented with using two different systems (retaining their Nikon gear while using an additional set of lenses and camera body).... 4/3 and Mirrorless have been quite successful and once someone has found a system that works well for them it may be unlikely that they change again or return to Nikon if they've been away for a while and no longer have a bunch of lenses and a sense of loyalty to Nikon.....

I hear ya. I haven't had any interest in new Nikon bodies in years, my D7000 works great. I am sure the current generation has better noise characteristics (my Fuji X100s certainly does), but I have a few bright lenses that even things out again. The camera is fast, capable and allows me to do what I'd like. Nevertheless, most of the time I take my Fuji X100s along with me, I just love that thing. If I started afresh now, I would definitely get into Fuji's X-mount system: I don't want to spend ¥¥¥,¥¥¥ for a full frame sensor camera, I love the retro UI and they have a very good line-up of lenses.

Nikon certainly has its work cut out for it.

 

[fathergll]

I think they are definitely too late, and if they only release mirrorless cameras with full frame sensor, they'll price a big portion of customers out of the market. Moreover, I expect Nikon to be extreeemely conservative when it comes to other design aspects, instead of taking the risks they need to take with user interface design and camera software.

Given that there is hype on the ability to mount legacy glass via an adapter Nikon's full frame success will dictate everything. It will depend on how well everything works but Nikon needs to bring some other level of innovation to the table which probably won't be too great in a gen 1 product but we will see.

 

[MacNut]

Given that there is hype on the ability to mount legacy glass via an adapter Nikon's full frame success will dictate everything. It will depend on how well everything works but Nikon needs to bring some other level of innovation to the table which probably won't be too great in a gen 1 product but we will see.

The question is what does Canon offer that can take the hype away from Nikon. We know Sony will counter Nikon.

 

[OreoCookie]

Given that there is hype on the ability to mount legacy glass via an adapter Nikon's full frame success will dictate everything. It will depend on how well everything works but Nikon needs to bring some other level of innovation to the table which probably won't be too great in a gen 1 product but we will see.

Honestly, I feel that being able to use F-mount glass is an absolute requirement if Nikon even wants to have a shot at this. But I am not convinced this is enough.

Nikon's offering has to stand out in some other way, and I am not sure what this could realistically be. (I have given you my list, but I don't expect that Nikon delivers on any of these.)

Canon technically already has a mirrorless offering, but just like Nikon they have crippled their line-up (i. e. they made only consumer-grade bodies, apparently believing it to be necessary to protect their professional dslr cameras from competition). In my observation, they are not very popular, not even in Japan. Because of that I think Canon is in the same problematic situation that Nikon is in.

 

[MCAsan]

The question is what does Canon offer that can take the hype away from Nikon. We know Sony will counter Nikon.

Isn't already Nikon countering Sony? Sony has already proven themselves in FF mirrorless.

 

[MacNut]

Isn't already Nikon countering Sony? Sony has already proven themselves in FF mirrorless.

What ever Nikon announces in 3 weeks Sony will counter with by announcing the A7Siii.

 

[fathergll]

The question is what does Canon offer that can take the hype away from Nikon. We know Sony will counter Nikon.

Canon's mirrorless will be coming and I guarantee you this will be videocentric device which is really a key thing in 2018 and beyond. Canon already has a lot of R&D into their video lineup with DPAF among other things.

 

[MacNut]

Canon's mirrorless will be coming and I guarantee you this will be videocentric device which is really a key thing in 2018 and beyond. Canon already has a lot of R&D into their video lineup with DPAF among other things.

Canon is waiting until Nikon announces to see what they have. Nikon is in the worst position here. Both Sony and Canon can counter Nikon’s first attempt.

 

[OreoCookie]

What ever Nikon announces in 3 weeks Sony will counter with by announcing the A7Siii.

That makes no sense on so many levels: designing a camera takes years, and Sony won't have any possibility to “counter” Nikon for quite a while. (Not that it needs to, Sony is the 800 lbs gorilla in that particular space.)

Also, Nikon has traditionally been using Sony sensors and Nikon's image processing algorithms are also a known quantity (not that Sony knows them, but it knows full well what look they go for), so Sony knows exactly what kind of IQ Nikon will be able to get. In the past, Sony and Nikon cameras have been using the exact same sensors, and I expect this to be true here.

Lastly, Nikon is also good at designing and making lenses, and the problem Nikon has is obvious: a rather small line-up. Of course, Nikon, just like anyone else, will offer an adapter for their F-mount, so that won't be a problem, unless you want a “native” lens.

The big question is: what is Nikon's mirrorless camera optimized for? Is it video? Is it still photography? What is the UI like, all touch screens and a few buttons or a retro UI (think Fuji)? IMHO that will decide the camera's fate. Unless Nikon pulls of a miracle, the people at Sony need not be worried too much I reckon.

If all things are equal, though, it may come down to handling. I have tried Sony mirrorless cameras and I always disliked how the UI worked and how they felt in my hand — especially once you put nice glass on them. Just for this reason, I would prefer a Fuji-style retro UI. But of course, other people have other preferences, and fortunately, there are options that fit most people's preferences

Canon is waiting until Nikon announces to see what they have. Nikon is in the worst position here. Both Sony and Canon can counter Nikon’s first attempt.

Again, the product cycles are way too long for that to make any sense. Canon has the same problem, and if it aims for a different niche than Nikon (say, Canon focusses on video capabilities), then they may not even compete in many markets. In most traditional areas all cameras are already “way more than good enough” (high ISO performance, fps continuous shooting). The only two areas where I expect a regression is AF performance (especially when compared with a Nikon D5 or a Canon EOS-1d(X)) and battery life.

Isn't already Nikon countering Sony? Sony has already proven themselves in FF mirrorless.

Not only that, Sony knows a few of the essential parameters if they supply the sensor for the new camera. Nikon will be in the unfamiliar position that it is not one of the two big guys but rather the new kid on the block trying to get a piece of the market.

 

[fathergll]

Canon is waiting until Nikon announces to see what they have. Nikon is in the worst position here. Both Sony and Canon can counter Nikon’s first attempt.

Most of the R&D is already done on whatever Canon is doing. They are not going to drastically change their planned camera this late in the game based on what Nikon will end up doing(Unless Canon is way behind on their Mirrorless system)

 

[MacNut]

Most of the R&D is already done on whatever Canon is doing. They are not going to drastically change their planned camera this late in the game based on what Nikon will end up doing(Unless Canon is way behind on their Mirrorless system)

What are the chances that Nikon hits it out of the park and Canon decides it has to start over? Now I don't think Nikon will do that but would Canon feel threatened enough to start over?

 

[Apple fanboy]

What exactly would any of the camera companies do to knock it out of the park? What are you hoping the new Mirrorless box will do that the mirror box can't?

 

[fathergll]

What are the chances that Nikon hits it out of the park and Canon decides it has to start over? Now I don't think Nikon will do that but would Canon feel threatened enough to start over?

It won't matter. We saw how Canon responded to to the Nikon D810.They had a ton of notice and the D810 still was superior in multiple areas while being cheaper.

Canon will hurt Nikon on the video portion of the camera which I am almost certain of.

 

[mollyc]

I've only been keeping up a little bit with this camera as I like my full frames, but I read that the Nikon mirrorless might accomodate a medium format sized sensor. That seems like kind of a big deal?

 

[MCAsan]

What ever Nikon announces in 3 weeks Sony will counter with by announcing the A7Siii.

No it will be the A10 with 75mp sensor.
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What exactly would any of the camera companies do to knock it out of the park? What are you hoping the new Mirrorless box will do that the mirror box can't?

Silent mode with constant live view, edge to edge AF points.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No it will be the A10 with 75mp sensor.
[doublepost=1533328830][/doublepost]

Silent mode with constant live view, edge to edge AF points.

Here's a list of all the times I've missed a shot due to a noisy shutter or having no AF points on the edge.
0.

You?

 

[Clix Pix]

Silent mode does come in handy for specific situations where a photographer does not want to draw attention to him/herself or to annoy other people with a shutter firing off bang-bang-bang-bang. Weddings are a prime example of this of course, but there are also other similar occasions. This past weekend I put one of my cameras into silent mode as I didn't want to disturb others around me while I was shooting; as it happened I didn't do any shooting at that particular time anyway so it didn't matter after all.