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curtvaughan

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2016
1,069
1,147
Austin, TX
I'm of two minds on this. As a consumer and fan of the cMP, slots, bays, expandability, and upgradability, I repeatedly criticize Apple for the direction they are going with their computers.

As an Apple shareholder however, my view is quite different because of the data that I read.

All the major PC makers are seeing declining PC sales quarter after quarter for years now, but in the same time period Apple has repeatedly bucked the trend. For example in 2014 the PC industry as a whole dropped 5%, but Mac sales were up 12%.

So we are essentially telling Apple, "Hey, see all those PC makers in decline? Make your computers more like those." That's a tough pitch.

As for Tim Cook doing a bad job? He's holding Mac sales steady in a declining industry and during his tenure he's nearly doubled the Mac installed user base. If anyone thinks that's a terrible job and Cook should be fired immediately, then you must have some extremely high expectations for whoever you think can do it better.
It isn't a declining industry. It is a steady industry, founded upon people who like to connect to great computers. The dilletantes are going after the gadgets; the computer people want great computers. Just a theory ...
 

Chancha

macrumors 68020
Mar 19, 2014
2,244
2,041
It isn't a declining industry. It is a steady industry, founded upon people who like to connect to great computers. The dilletantes are going after the gadgets; the computer people want great computers. Just a theory ...
There are dozens of industries built around a powerful desktop computer as a workstation + hub for peripherals and interfaces. These are long standing markets that wouldn't move to another ecosphere just because some other vendor releases a shinny thinner model of a machine. This sort of market is rock steady and it would take minimum effort to satisfy just with incremental updates.

But Apple chose to not do even that because like some said, on a purely capitalistic point of view, the success of mobile platform is too much to not focus the company's resources on. I think Apple's biggest problem is its reluctance or sluggishness in merging their macOS and OS ecosphere. Refusing to implement touch onto OS X essentially puts themselves in the current position where priority is given to iOS with macOS undermined, then disappointing macOS users as a compromise. If they had a touch desktop OS in place similar to Win 10, both spheres could then move forward concurrently.
 
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Jyby

Suspended
May 31, 2011
720
617
I would argue the only thing Apple lacks are good graphics cards. For most people there are plenty of options to expand IO, storage, and ram (16-32GB being pretty good).

But it's like why make it easy for Mac Pro graphics card upgrades if you only release cards that are slow and ancient?

Why is it easy for PC laptop makers to put two 1080s in their machines that cost less than a Mac Pro? It's ridiculous.
 

curtvaughan

macrumors 65816
Dec 23, 2016
1,069
1,147
Austin, TX
If we apply the same measure to the Windows PC world, that example fails miserably. Since the decline of the desktop PC year after year must mean people are not interested in cheaper more powerful computers. They fail to see the decline is due to mobile computing and not needing more powerful desktops for the majority of people. Microsoft & Nokia dismissed that trend, and now one company has disappeared in to obscurity.
I think Microsoft is again experiencing growth, particularly as hardware offerings expand to fill in the hole neglected by Apple and the Mac line. They missed the boat with mobile phones, but who knows? If Apple fades in its iPhone / iPad products and sales MS might rise again in that area (though Android makes that unlikely). MS is particularly expanding in hybrid offerings, as are several PC makers on the Windows 10 platform.
 

linuxcooldude

macrumors 68020
Mar 1, 2010
2,480
7,232
I think Microsoft is again experiencing growth, particularly as hardware offerings expand to fill in the hole neglected by Apple and the Mac line. They missed the boat with mobile phones, but who knows? If Apple fades in its iPhone / iPad products and sales MS might rise again in that area (though Android makes that unlikely). MS is particularly expanding in hybrid offerings, as are several PC makers on the Windows 10 platform.

Hybrids and super niche markets fill quite small holes. The Surface Studio's base model and maybe mid tier Studio can't even run Adobes Lightroom adequately without problems. ( See the TWIT networks Windows Weekly #494 )

https://twit.tv/shows/windows-weekly/episodes/494
 
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aaronhead14

macrumors 65816
Original poster
Mar 9, 2009
1,243
5,324
I would argue the only thing Apple lacks are good graphics cards. For most people there are plenty of options to expand IO, storage, and ram (16-32GB being pretty good).

But it's like why make it easy for Mac Pro graphics card upgrades if you only release cards that are slow and ancient?

Why is it easy for PC laptop makers to put two 1080s in their machines that cost less than a Mac Pro? It's ridiculous.

While I'd obviously prefer a Mac with up to 128 or 256 GB of RAM, PCI-E slots, expandability, etc., I also agree with what you're saying here! Out of all the problems, the graphics card issue is the one that needs fixing the most. Seriously, why can't Apple just use some GTX 1080's in their machines? It seriously can't be that difficult...
 
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CWallace

macrumors G5
Aug 17, 2007
12,510
11,509
Seattle, WA
I think Apple's biggest problem is its reluctance or sluggishness in merging their macOS and OS ecosphere. Refusing to implement touch onto OS X essentially puts themselves in the current position where priority is given to iOS with macOS undermined, then disappointing macOS users as a compromise. If they had a touch desktop OS in place similar to Win 10, both spheres could then move forward concurrently.

I've used Touch on Windows for many years (going back to Windows XP on the Panasonic Toughbook) and while it can have a function on portables, for desktops... Look at how hard Windows 8 flopped in the marketplace because it demanded users use touch as their input, even in scenarios (like desktops) where it was at best superfluous and at worst actively hostile.

As for merging iOS and macOS, Apple is only accelerating that - but they're doing it in the background, leveraging their common foundation. And even then, we see a fair bit of backlash in these forums about the usability of a new bit of functionality added to macOS that was previously an iOS-exclusive.
 

JimGoshorn

macrumors 6502
Mar 8, 2009
438
522
NY
Just an FYI for those that might not know: today I discovered that not only does Apple have iTunes for Windows but it also has iCloud for Windows so that Outlook can see your email, contacts, calendar and reminders...
 

ssgbryan

macrumors 65816
Jul 18, 2002
1,488
1,420
As for merging iOS and macOS, Apple is only accelerating that - but they're doing it in the background, leveraging their common foundation. And even then, we see a fair bit of backlash in these forums about the usability of a new bit of functionality added to macOS that was previously an iOS-exclusive.

From what I have seen, the OSX apps get butchered so they can fit within the capabilities of iOS.
 

Jyby

Suspended
May 31, 2011
720
617
While I'd obviously prefer a Mac with up to 128 or 256 GB of RAM, PCI-E slots, expandability, etc., I also agree with what you're saying here! Out of all the problems, the graphics card issue is the one that needs fixing the most. Seriously, why can't Apple just use some GTX 1080's in their machines? It seriously can't be that difficult...

Could you explain your use case for 128GB+ of ram?
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
Could you explain your use case for 128GB+ of ram?
mem.jpg


128 GiB - 13.2 GiB unused.
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
What apps are you running? RAM disk?
Usual stuff - browsers, IDEs, remote desktops, SSH clients, image and video editors...

And VMs running databases and other VMs running test environments and other VMs running different IDE versions.

Looking at expansion options - either upgrade to 256 GiB (and eBay the 128 GiB), or get a new system with possibly two sockets and lots more DIMM slots.

And this is my home PC - for work I use serious hardware.

And RAM disks are slower than my spinners and SSDs.
 
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AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
How is that possible?
Easy.

Disk controllers use DMA so that the CPU isn't involved in data transfer.

RAMdisks use "memcpy" CPU instructions to move data - so data transfers need 100% of a thread.

Disk controllers use NCQ and other parallel transfer tactics - most RAMdisks are single-threaded.
______

Therefore, if your application is multi-threaded and CPU-bound, and you have fast disks - the CPU hit from a RAMdisk can mean that your application runs slower from a RAMdisk than from real disks.
 

Bubba Satori

Suspended
Feb 15, 2008
4,726
3,756
B'ham
Easy.

Disk controllers use DMA so that the CPU isn't involved in data transfer.

RAMdisks use "memcpy" CPU instructions to move data - so data transfers need 100% of a thread.

Disk controllers use NCQ and other parallel transfer tactics - most RAMdisks are single-threaded.
______

Therefore, if your application is multi-threaded and CPU-bound, and you have fast disks - the CPU hit from a RAMdisk can mean that your application runs slower from a RAMdisk than from real disks.

Interesting. Learn something new every day.
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
Interesting. Learn something new every day.
Yeah. We spent a bunch of time redoing a workflow to use RAMdisks - only to find out that the new version was slower.

It turned out that it was CPU-bound and highly parallel - and we had fast RAID-5 and RAID-0 disks. The CPU hit from the RAMdisk made it slower.

Perhaps a better RAMdisk that had better parallelism would have won - but we licked our wounds and went back to real disks.
 

PortableLover

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2012
734
663
england
Usual stuff - browsers, IDEs, remote desktops, SSH clients, image and video editors...

And VMs running databases and other VMs running test environments and other VMs running different IDE versions.

Looking at expansion options - either upgrade to 256 GiB (and eBay the 128 GiB), or get a new system with possibly two sockets and lots more DIMM slots.

And this is my home PC - for work I use serious hardware.

And RAM disks are slower than my spinners and SSDs.

Apologies, if I may ask what do you do as a job?
 

AidenShaw

macrumors P6
Feb 8, 2003
18,667
4,677
The Peninsula
Apologies, if I may ask what do you do as a job?
Support computing operations for a research lab, including a handful of systems with 72/144 C/T, 1 TiB RAM, 12K CUDA cores. Most systems 12 to 32 cores, 128 GiB to 768 GiB RAM, 2K to 6K CUDA cores. No ATI GPUs anywhere. Upwards of 100 10GbE ports and an uncountable number of 1GbE ports. 16 Gbps FC for storage. Typical disk purchases are in increments of 96TB 2U shelves, about a $1M capex budget per year. Mix of FC and DAS depending on the project. The usual midrange stuff.
 
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PortableLover

macrumors 6502a
Apr 14, 2012
734
663
england
Support computing operations for a research lab, including a handful of systems with 72/144 C/T, 1 TiB RAM, 12K CUDA cores. Most systems 12 to 32 cores, 128 GiB to 768 GiB RAM. Upwards of 100 10GbE ports and an uncountable number of 1GbE ports. 16 Gbps FC for storage. Typical disk purchases are in increments of 96TB 2U shelves, about a $1M capex budget per year. Mix of FC and DAS depending on the project. The usual midrange stuff.

Seeing all that sexy hardware must be fun. Although its definitely a hard job. Thanks for the reply.
 
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