Surface Devices

[0388631]

Given Intel's track record of of making dates, I'd say anything in 2018 might be pie in the sky

It isn't too much of a stretch. They're likely failed yields from higher lines. Intel has to do something to stop AMD from gaining ground. While Ryzen+ isn't the same as Intel's offerings, their platform offers more bang for buck in the longrun. Ryzen 2 is very likely going to close that gap in single thread performance and meet or exceed Intel in IPC. It's all very interesting if not a bit amusing to see Intel scramble, especially when their 75%~ market share in enterprise (servers) is also at risk to Epyc 2.

This is great for consumers like you and me, of course. Jim Keller is now at Intel, but whatever he creates for them, presuming he's working on processors, won't be out for another 2-3 years. With Intel's "failed" "10nm" launch, they'll probably cut their losses in relation to future "10nm" yield losses and go straight to "7nm" and utilize EUVL.

 

[maflynn]

It isn't too much of a stretch.

Normally, I'd say yes but Intel has been struggling for some time with rolling out new chips. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just that even if this rumor turns out to be true, I have a hard time beleiving Intel is capable of updating the cpu so quickly.

 

[0388631]

Normally, I'd say yes but Intel has been struggling for some time with rolling out new chips. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just that even if this rumor turns out to be true, I have a hard time beleiving Intel is capable of updating the cpu so quickly.

You'll have to read the rest of my reply as I just explained what happened. At any given time Intel was sitting on 2-3 hardware revisions. AMD's success with Ryzen and Ryzen+ toyed with that. Failed yields from higher end lines can be recycled. I wouldn't call 3-4 years of wait time "quick" by any measure. In that time Intel will likely resort to their old tactics and bribe OEMs to use their products over AMDs and dish out their usual nastiness through underhanded campaigns.

I would say in 5 years, we'll see another processor war where creation technique will be new and we'll get a lot more IPC than we do today with smaller power envelopes. The technology exists now. The know how to utilize it is still being developed. And Intel processor from 2011 and 2018 aren't much different until you begin putting them through their paces. Sure, mid-high and high range performance may be similar, but the newer processor will have a better low range performance and mid range performance. A new mid-range i3 performs better than the older i7.

 

[Dave245]

You'll have to read the rest of my reply as I just explained what happened. At any given time Intel was sitting on 2-3 hardware revisions. AMD's success with Ryzen and Ryzen+ toyed with that. Failed yields from higher end lines can be recycled. I wouldn't call 3-4 years of wait time "quick" by any measure. In that time Intel will likely resort to their old tactics and bribe OEMs to use their products over AMDs and dish out their usual nastiness through underhanded campaigns.

Normally, I'd say yes but Intel has been struggling for some time with rolling out new chips. I'm not saying its a bad thing, just that even if this rumor turns out to be true, I have a hard time beleiving Intel is capable of updating the cpu so quickly.

according to these rumours Microsoft will announce a new smaller version of the surface that's around 10" and will cost in the region of $400

What's also interesting is that the report also says "A dual-screen device dubbed Andromeda is also scheduled for a 2018 release, Sams reports, which seems more likely after Intel revealed its wild Tiger Rapids prototype at Computex 2018."

So will there be a dual screen Surface? the chips from Intel must be ready if Microsoft are planning to launch these two devices this year.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/328...re-xbox-surface-release-dates-code-names.html

 

[0388631]

according to these rumours Microsoft will announce a new smaller version of the surface that's around 10" and will cost in the region of $400

What's also interesting is that the report also says "A dual-screen device dubbed Andromeda is also scheduled for a 2018 release, Sams reports, which seems more likely after Intel revealed its wild Tiger Rapids prototype at Computex 2018."

So will there be a dual screen Surface? the chips from Intel must be ready if Microsoft are planning to launch these two devices this year.

https://www.pcworld.com/article/328...re-xbox-surface-release-dates-code-names.html

Likely more connected to Intel's announcement on developing a discreet graphics processor. There was some talk about them developing a gaming GPU years ago and recently, but this makes more sense.

 

[maflynn]

according to these rumours Microsoft will announce a new smaller version of the surface that's around 10" and will cost in the region of $400

Yeah, now that you mentioned it, there are rumors that MS is rolling out a product that will compete with the iPad. My focus is on laptop operations not tablet's so I think I pushed it out of my mind. Tbh, I find the Surface Book to be a poor tablet given the size and weight of the display. I didn't like windows 8 in tablet mode when I owned a surface pro. Tbh, I think Apple's iPad is a better product then the surface pro if you need a tablet.

 

[Falhófnir]

Do you think the Surface line will be updated later this year?

Personally if I were to game it wouldn’t be anything too heavy because i do have the game consoles for that (when I actually get time to go on them) but i do like the occasional game of The Sims, Tropico, Theme Hospital and those type of games, mainly because they do help and aid with the creative process plus taking a break is always good

Recently I have been tempted to try a Surface device, I still love my Mac’s and would still use them along side other devices but I’m not going to lie the temptation is definitely there. I’ve never tried a Surface at all, my last Windows machine was a tower before I upgraded to a Mac in 2011.

Microsoft seem to rotate their updates across several years - as the surface books were last to be updated I’d expect to see a new surface laptop and/ or studio this year, followed by a surface pro and book next year (as a very rough approximation). They might give the surface books a mid cycle upgrade (as they did with the ‘performance base’ version of gen 1, but as there’s no more powerful internals available as yet I’m not sure exactly what they would do).

I’m very tempted by asurface book 15 if Apple don’t reconsider their erroneous path as far as the keyboard goes. I had been considering getting a MBP and magic keyboard for comfort on longer typing sessions but why reward Apple for bad design and greed and callous disregard for user experience?

 

[maflynn]

surface book 15

MS does charge a premium for the 15" model. While I'm pretty much settled on the Razer for my purchase, for giggles I may throw in the 15" model into my excel matrix that cross references the specs for what was on my short list of of laptops

 

[Dave245]

Yeah, now that you mentioned it, there are rumors that MS is rolling out a product that will compete with the iPad. My focus is on laptop operations not tablet's so I think I pushed it out of my mind. Tbh, I find the Surface Book to be a poor tablet given the size and weight of the display. I didn't like windows 8 in tablet mode when I owned a surface pro. Tbh, I think Apple's iPad is a better product then the surface pro if you need a tablet.

Yea during my recent research into the Surface line I did read that as a tablet the iPad is much better. I also read that the Microsoft store isn’t as good as Apple’s App Store.

But also like you I’m looking at laptop oporations rather than tablet ones. I have no intention of giving up my iMac so that would still remain as my home desktop, but as a portable I’m looking to replace my now slow and aging MBP 2011.

I’m very impressed with the 12” MacBook and will probably get one of those once they are updated, the Surface Pro does intrigue me a lot just lately, maybe I could buy one to try out and use alongside my Mac’s to game on and use Microsoft Word, as an experiment.

Does anyone else use a Mac and Surface Pro or Surfacebook? How well do they work together?

 

[maflynn]

I also read that the Microsoft store isn’t as good as Apple’s App Store.

To me stores are stores. I'm neither negative nor positive regarding MS stores. They're not as busy as Apple's so on a plus side its easier to talk to someone

But also like you I’m looking at laptop oporations rather than tablet ones.

That's the one thing missing with the iPad.

Does anyone else use a Mac and Surface Pro or Surfacebook? How well do they work together?

I use a mixed environemnt but my workflow may not be the same and tbh, I've largely stopped using my SB. For Office stuff (word, excel) its seemless because I store all my documents on OneDrive. I also use DropBox for other file syncing needs. When I was using my SB more, I'd store my trips photos on it and export it off the SB to the Mac. That was a bit trickier

 

[Dave245]

To me stores are stores. I'm neither negative nor positive regarding MS stores. They're not as busy as Apple's so on a plus side its easier to talk to someone


That's the one thing missing with the iPad.


I use a mixed environemnt but my workflow may not be the same and tbh, I've largely stopped using my SB. For Office stuff (word, excel) its seemless because I store all my documents on OneDrive. I also use DropBox for other file syncing needs. When I was using my SB more, I'd store my trips photos on it and export it off the SB to the Mac. That was a bit trickier

Sorry I meant the Microsoft App Store isn’t as good as the Apple one from what I’ve read online. Being able to do everything on one device would seem better, for example if I could use Word, drawing apps, games such a the Sims 4 and light gaming, Netflix and so on it would be great all under one device.

At present i do have to use my iPad Pro for drawing and colouring in apps (I do have Affinity Photo and Pixelmator) I occasionally use it to also write a few blog posts but long writing sessions for hours at a time for work (I’m a writer) it’s just not practical and so i end up using either my MacBook Pro 2012 or iMac at home. Also if I want to play some games I have to do so on my Mac (those that are supported for Mac that is)

 

[maflynn]

Sorry I meant the Microsoft App Store isn’t as good as the Apple one from what I’ve read online.

Yeah, I give you that

 

[Falhófnir]

MS does charge a premium for the 15" model. While I'm pretty much settled on the Razer for my purchase, for giggles I may throw in the 15" model into my excel matrix that cross references the specs for what was on my short list of of laptops

Yes, indeed it seems to parallel the 15” MBP pricing to a greater or lesser degree - and just like a MBP I probably wouldn’t have a huge amount of use for that power (though installing a couple of games is more likely for a windows computer than a Mac) - where it is better though (ignoring the keyboard) is the 3:2 aspect screen which I find very appealing for document use...

Ultimately I think it will come down to if I can settle for 256gb storage plus an external drive (really I want 512gb min but I’m not paying what msft want for the 512gb version, the value just isn’t there). I might also find being able to annotate directly on screen with the pen useful so there’s that too. Though an HP spectre with a foldable design, pen included, 512gb SSD, MX150 4gb graphics card and 8th gen chip can be had for about £1,800 which is about £1,000 less than the 512gb surface book.

 

[Dave245]

Yes, indeed it seems to parallel the 15” MBP pricing to a greater or lesser degree - and just like a MBP I probably wouldn’t have a huge amount of use for that power (though installing a couple of games is more likely for a windows computer than a Mac) - where it is better though (ignoring the keyboard) is the 3:2 aspect screen which I find very appealing for document use...

Ultimately I think it will come down to if I can settle for 256gb storage plus an external drive (really I want 512gb min but I’m not paying what msft want for the 512gb version, the value just isn’t there). I might also find being able to annotate directly on screen with the pen useful so there’s that too. Though an HP spectre with a foldable design, pen included, 512gb SSD, MX150 4gb graphics card and 8th gen chip can be had for about £1,800 which is about £1,000 less than the 512gb surface book.

I do wonder if Microsoft are giving Apple the kick they need with the Surface, I don’t know how well the Surface device’s sell but I’m sure Apple could get in on this market, maybe not a hybrid but they could do something that makes it easier for people who own an iPad and a Mac.

Don’t get me wrong I use an iMac and will continue to do so because I love the iMac it’s a great desktop and MacOS is my favourite OS, BUT in portable machines it can get a little annoying when I have to use my iPad Pro for drawing and note taking but then use my 2011 MacBook Pro for long periods of writing and so on, even if I wanted to game with the Sims, Tropico and similar games that are not that power hungry I still have to use my MacBook Pro or iMac because the iPad Pro simply can’t do it.

I also think Apple have made it worse for themselves with pricing, the 15" is over £2,000 here in the U.K. and even the 13” can get to that price if you add 16GB Ram. The Surface isn’t much better on price unless you have the fabless Surface Pro which can be brought for around £750 over here in the U.K.

 

[maflynn]

I do wonder if Microsoft are giving Apple the kick they need with the Surface, I don’t know how well the Surface device’s sell but I’m sure Apple could get in on this market, maybe not a hybrid but they could do something that makes it easier for people who own an iPad and a Mac.

I don't think so, my take on it is MS is riding on Apple's coat tales (high priced premium type products). I'm not knocking the Surface design, to some degree its been successful, but I don't believe the sales of the Surface Pro or book are high enough to take away an appreciable amount of Apple's business.

 

[Dave245]

I don't think so, my take on it is MS is riding on Apple's coat tales (high priced premium type products). I'm not knocking the Surface design, to some degree its been successful, but I don't believe the sales of the Surface Pro or book are high enough to take away an appreciable amount of Apple's business.

Fair enough, I do think that the Surface boss (Panos Panay) seems very passionate about it from the presentations I’ve seen. Personally I’m conflicted because Apple do make great stuff, I love my Mac’s, iPhone and iPad BUT at the same time I appreciate what Microsoft are trying to do with the Surface devices.

It’s a road that Apple doesn’t seem to want to go down, they have been asked many times and they seem adamant about it.

 

[RickTaylor]

I like the idea of the Surface book. As a math teacher, I connect my iPad pro to a projector to use it as a virtual white board. It's great for that. And I use my Macbook Pro for writing papers and exams and such.

But I'm intrigued by the idea of a device that could do both. It would be less of a hassle moving files back and forth.

But then I really like the Apple pencil. It feels as natural to write with as any electronic device I've tried, and I question whether I'd be satisfied with the Surface pen.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

I don't think so, my take on it is MS is riding on Apple's coat tales (high priced premium type products). I'm not knocking the Surface design, to some degree its been successful, but I don't believe the sales of the Surface Pro or book are high enough to take away an appreciable amount of Apple's business.

It is not the intention of Microsoft to sell as much Surface devices as Apple. The Surface line was introduced by Microsoft as a halo product to inspire other OEM's to start making high quality Windows devices (because Windows was associated with cheapo products at that time). Microsoft only makes the Surface line within the expensive price range because they don't want to compete with their OEM's. The result is that almost all OEM's now make Windows hybrid/touch devices.
If you want to compare sales you should not only compare the MS Surface line to Apple, but all hybrid Windows devices.

 

[Dave245]

It is not the intention of Microsoft to sell as much Surface devices as Apple. The Surface line was introduced by Microsoft as a halo product to inspire other OEM's to start making high quality Windows devices (because Windows was associated with cheapo products at that time). Microsoft only makes the Surface line within the expensive price range because they don't want to compete with their OEM's. The result is that almost all OEM's now make Windows hybrid/touch devices.
If you want to compare sales you should not only compare the MS Surface line to Apple, but all hybrid Windows devices.

it would be interesting to see sales figures against Apple’s Mac’s for example, can the Surface line even be compared to the the iPad Pro? Since it’s suppose to be a laptop replacement anyway.

With the comments made over the last few years Tim Cook seems to very adamant that Apple won’t do such as device, half of me understands why but the other half is very intrigued with the idea of owning a device that can replace both my iPad Pro and laptop (MacBook 2011). Does Apple not feel like they are missing out in that market.

 

[Kingcr]

it would be interesting to see sales figures against Apple’s Mac’s for example, can the Surface line even be compared to the the iPad Pro? Since it’s suppose to be a laptop replacement anyway.

As @AndyMacAndMic said, the Surface line isn't there to compete with Apple (or any of the Windows OEM's). If Surface was directly competitive (in terms of volume or revenue) with Apple products, it'd probably be by accident IMO.

Microsoft has been clear that its goal in hardware is to create new categories. They're trying to change the way end-users use devices, and then shape their service offerings around that to complete the package.

 

[AndyMacAndMic]

it would be interesting to see sales figures against Apple’s Mac’s for example, can the Surface line even be compared to the the iPad Pro? Since it’s suppose to be a laptop replacement anyway.

With the comments made over the last few years Tim Cook seems to very adamant that Apple won’t do such as device, half of me understands why but the other half is very intrigued with the idea of owning a device that can replace both my iPad Pro and laptop (MacBook 2011). Does Apple not feel like they are missing out in that market.

If you compare Windows computers to Apple computers it is easy: Apple's MacOS marketshare is around 7% if I am not mistaken. Windows OS around 90%.

For tablet devices it is a lot more complicated. Are Surface devices tablets or laptops?

It is all apples and oranges but in my opinion they could be compared as follows:
- Surface pro (more accent on tablet than laptop). Also lots of Surface pro 'clones' are made by OEM's. These devices could be compared with iPad users with a need for a laptop once in a while.
- Surface laptop. This is a laptop (with touch) and should be compared with a MacBook(pro?). There are also lots of laptops with touch nowadays made by OEM's.
- Surface Book/Surface Book 2. Powerful laptop (with touch) with detachable screen that can occasionally be used as a tablet. Should be compared to the MacBook pro and to an iPad (for occasional use). Also 'copied' nowadays by lots of OEM's.
- Surface Studio. A desktop all in one computer with touch. This comparison is obvious: the iMac.

But all those comparisons don't matter. Microsoft is not a hardware company but a software company. In the end it matters to Microsoft how many devices are sold with Windows and/or other MS software on it. Be it an MS device or another OEM device. Microsoft also likes it when people buy Apple stuff (think all the MS software running on Mac/iOS).

Apple is a hardware company. Therefore I understand why Apple is adamant about not doing such a device. They also said they will never implement touch in MacOS. It simply would hurt their sales. They want you to buy an iMac or MacBook (pro) for your computer needs and an iPad/iPhone (preferably both) for your easy consumption/portable/communication needs. If Apple combined MacOS and iOS to make hybrid devices people would buy only one device instead of two.

But in the end it is about what you like. I know people owning both (Surface and iPad) and love them both.

You'll have to decide for yourself which half of you wins the vote

 

[Dave245]

But in the end it is about what you like. I know people owning both (Surface and iPad) and love them both.

You'll have to decide for yourself which half of you wins the vote

Yea I would definitely not stop using my Mac’s, I also own a 2012 iMac and I love it as my desktop. I may have to try one at some point and see if I like it maybe as an added companion or something as I’m no where near ready to give up MacOS/Apple stuff.

 

[Dave245]

It appears Microsoft are teasing a new Surface device, one that may be competing with the iPad. It may be the smaller Surface that's been rumoured.

Would such a device interest you over the iPad Pro?

 

[kazmac]

It appears Microsoft are teasing a new Surface device, one that may be competing with the iPad. It may be the smaller Surface that's been rumoured.

Would such a device interest you over the iPad Pro?

Yes. Having just sold my iPad Pro and looking to migrate away from Apple, the cheaper Surface does intrigue me.

Depending on the specs, price, the pen and if I can find apps that will replace Notability and Procreate, I may very well get one for University and art.

 

[The_Interloper]

...if I can find apps that will replace Notability and Procreate, I may very well get one for University and art.

Notability = OneNote: https://products.office.com/en/onenote
ProCreate = Sketchable: https://siliconbenders.com/