Surface Pro 3 announcement and prices

[spinedoc77]

Legacy apps on the ipad? You appear to be moving the goal posts. The primary use case for a tablet is touch. My contention has been that the Surface makes a sub-par tablet because of the lack of touch-optimized apps (ie. Modern UI apps)

It's not a matter of semantics. The primary user interface for a tablet is the touchscreen.



You claimed that "Touch MS Office is coming soon" as a rebuttal to my point that touch MS Office is not available. Your response was not correct.

In the end, you are free to believe that the Surface makes a fine tablet on par with what is available for Android and iOS, but don't be surprised when the majority of consumers reject that belief.




I always fly coach too. I agree a tablet should be easier to deal with tight spaces. No disagreement when talking about a tablet alone. But the kickstand of the Surface devices requires space that is needed with a traditional notebook.

I'd be curious as to the distances on your rBMP from the front edge of the keyboard to the vertical line from the top edge of the screen.
rMBP

      /
     /
____/
<----->|

SP3

      /
     /\
____/  \
<------>|

On the contrary, I haven't moved the goalposts Microsoft has. Or rather more correctly, Apple moved the goalposts backwards when it introduced the ipad. WHY does a tablet have to primarily only be used with touch? Why can't you use it as a laptop? Or with a dock and a larger monitor? Or with a kickstand, keyboard and mouse? These are all questions Microsoft has asked, questions which Apple has not, or more specifically realized there was more money in selling consumers 2 devices. I know we are arguing semantics here, no disrespect intended as it's a great discussion. But I think our definitions of what a tablet should do differ greatly.

I think part of the dissonance is what I like to call the "I can write my masters thesis one handed on the subway" conundrum. Does the lack of an app, but having a legacy program always mean a negative? I'd say definitely not, I wouldn't want to do any heavy photo editing with the iOS version of Photoshop lite for example.

At the end of the day you are just saying "the SP3 doesn't fit my needs", and I'm saying "the SP3 does fit my needs", nothing more, nothing less. All that remains to be seen is how successful they are and how many consumers need what you need, and how many need what I need.

As for touch office, I was agreeing with you. It IS coming, but not right away. Still, what options do you have? iWork? The current Office for iOS? Both poor solutions when compared to legacy Office, but if they are good enough for your use then I understand your stance. But when Touch Office is released won't you still have the same choices? Is it not a moot point anyway? Anyhow, as I mentioned, legacy Office is quite usable as it's scaled correctly and has large buttons and a ribbon which is geared for the touch user. If you look at legacy OneNote and modern OneNote there really isn't that great of a difference in many ways.

Last one, on an airplane at least I can hold my tablet as a tablet. On a macbook you can't fold the screen back, you can't flip the keyboard behind it or detach the screen, you can't touch the screen, you can't write with a stylus. Heck yeah I'd choose the SP3 over the macbook ANY day of the week on an airplane. Once again just my use scenario, not meant to force one on you.

----------

Has anyone actually preordered and if so, which one?

Will the store have any stock at all and which day? I should have asked when I was there Saturday but totally forgot.

I preordered a i5/256gb/8g RAM one. My store said it would be waiting for me on 6/20. You can have it mailed out also.

 

[balamw]

FWIW had my first trip with the DVP8 yesterday.

One problem I ran into in slate mode was that the software keyboard and Metro Chrome didn't want to play well together in Gmail over the plane's Wifi.

I kept having to type blind with the keyboard obscuring what I was typing.

This bummed me about a bit re: my use case of SP3 in slate mode on a plane.

I'm sure there's a way around it.

B

 

[sracer]

On the contrary, I haven't moved the goalposts Microsoft has. Or rather more correctly, Apple moved the goalposts backwards when it introduced the ipad. WHY does a tablet have to primarily only be used with touch? Why can't you use it as a laptop? Or with a dock and a larger monitor? Or with a kickstand, keyboard and mouse? These are all questions Microsoft has asked, questions which Apple has not, or more specifically realized there was more money in selling consumers 2 devices. I know we are arguing semantics here, no disrespect intended as it's a great discussion. But I think our definitions of what a tablet should do differ greatly.

Yes, our definitions are indeed different. I stand by the definition that a tablet's primary input source is the touchscreen. You believe that a tablet doesn't have a primary input source.

 

[B...]

Yes, our definitions are indeed different. I stand by the definition that a tablet's primary input source is the touchscreen. You believe that a tablet doesn't have a primary input source.

From Google:

tab·let
ˈtablit/
noun
noun: tablet; plural noun: tablets
1.
a flat slab of stone, clay, or wood, used especially for an inscription.
synonyms: slab, stone, panel, plaque, plate, sign More
ARCHITECTURE
another term for table (sense 3 of the noun).
2.
a small disk or cylinder of a compressed solid substance, typically a measured amount of a medicine or drug; a pill.
synonyms: pill, capsule, lozenge, caplet, pastille, drop, pilule; More
BRITISH
a small flat piece of soap.
3.
NORTH AMERICAN
a writing pad.
synonyms: pad, notepad, memo pad, notebook, scratchpad More
trademark
a computer that accepts input directly onto an LCD screen rather than via a keyboard or mouse.
noun: tablet PC; plural noun: tablet PCs; noun: tablet computer; plural noun: tablet computers

 

[spinedoc77]

Yes, our definitions are indeed different. I stand by the definition that a tablet's primary input source is the touchscreen. You believe that a tablet doesn't have a primary input source.

It's not that I believe the touchscreen isn't the primary source of input, because it is. I just think other sources of input should not be downplayed so much, although of course that varies greatly depending on the user. You sound like you use touch most of the time, conversely I use touch less than half the time on my tablets.

The other thing to consider is that touch is a primary method of input possibly because the most popular tablets are the ones which make any other input harder. Mouse input is impossible on an ipad, so obviously no one will be able to use it and it will not be a viable input method. Conversely a windows tablet has a desktop, USB port and millions of legacy programs which specifically benefit from mouse input. So this may even vary hugely depending on which OS you are running.

As usual, and what often gets missed, is that the reality is not black and white but a certain shade of grey.

Edit: I'm curious, can you make a list of which apps are necessary to have on a tablet for you that are not in the windows app store. No trolling, I'm genuinely curious as it would help to shape my opinion a bit more.

 

[sracer]

It's not that I believe the touchscreen isn't the primary source of input, because it is.

Well then there should be no disagreement when I say that the lack of touch-optimized apps affects the quality of experience in the use of a tablet... and yet there is (disagreement).

 

[spinedoc77]

Well then there should be no disagreement when I say that the lack of touch-optimized apps affects the quality of experience in the use of a tablet... and yet there is (disagreement).

I can only assume you are not reading my responses very closely. I discussed the paradigm of primarily using touch input in regards to the leading tablets sold out there and how they function. I also discussed the individual users needs and the difference in tablet capability.

Once again it's not that I disagree, if you own an ipad and cannot use a mouse and can't really use it well as a laptop then it's quite obvious that you won't use those modes of input very much if not at all, sorry I just thought that was kind of painfully obvious. Once again it's a case by case scenario, not black and white at all.

Which apps are you missing on windows?

 

[Liquorpuki]

Well then there should be no disagreement when I say that the lack of touch-optimized apps affects the quality of experience in the use of a tablet... and yet there is (disagreement).

Depends on the application

 

[spinedoc77]

Depends on the application

Yep, and the user, and the tablet used.

 

[maflynn]

Yep, and the user, and the tablet used.

Agreed, the SP3 has a lot of features that many tablets do not and you can use it like a laptop. Touch optimized apps could increase a user experience but there may be regular windows apps that work fine on the SP3.

 

[sracer]

Agreed, the SP3 has a lot of features that many tablets do not and you can use it like a laptop. Touch optimized apps could increase a user experience but there may be regular windows apps that work fine on the SP3.

I'm not connecting with this line of thinking at all. I get where you are coming from, but I don't think it is a widespread point of view.

The iPad has set the bar for consumer tablets. The fact that Microsoft tip-toed past the iPad to position the Surface Pro 3 to compete with the Macbook Air is their acknowledgement that the SP3 can't directly compete with the iPad. Ultrabook first, tablet second is the message Microsoft is sending. Why this is in dispute is quite puzzling to me.

Microsoft attempted to produce a product that umbrellas over both tablet and ultrabook... claiming that the SP3 does a good enough job in each to replace both. They're playing the angle that every ounce and every mm saved matters more than the functionality it provides. They more than merely implied that the SP3 is a replacement for an MBA + iPad Air.

There's a shell-game of sorts going on that Microsoft is playing. Whenever someone attempts to compare the SP3 to an iPad, the response is.. well it can do more than an iPad. That is so nebulous and subjective as to be essentially meaningless.

The "more" that the SP3 can do is not a proper superset of the functionality of the iPad. It is not "the SP3 can do everything that the iPad can and more" type of "more". It is "the SP3 can do some things that the iPad can't" type of "more". The same goes for any comparison of the SP3 to an MBA.

But in the end, people's opinions (as well as mine) have been formed and settled. Mine come from first hand experience with a Surface RT and Surface 2, Macbooks, Windows notebooks, iPads, and Android tablets. Based on that I've said what I think Microsoft needs to be successful with the Surface.

 

[maflynn]

The iPad has set the bar for consumer tablets. The fact that Microsoft tip-toed past the iPad to position the Surface Pro 3 to compete with the Macbook Air is their acknowledgement that the SP3 can't directly compete with the iPad. Ultrabook first, tablet second is the message Microsoft is sending. Why this is in dispute is quite puzzling to me.

It has, I don't think anyone is going to argue that. I also agree Microsoft erred in marketing the SP series against the iPad. With that said, I think there is room in the market to have a hybrid tablet/laptop replacement. Does the SP3 sacrifice too much to accomplish this - maybe. Will it be an over night success like the iPad - not likely. Will there be people who want it and use it. Yes.

As mentioned I have one on order and I'll be making my final decision to let that order go through or cancel it. I've not completed my vetting process, but from what I have done. I'm very impressed with what it has to offer. Is it a perfect device no, but then neither is my iPad or MBP for that matter.

I'm looking for a device that best fits my needs and works within the parameters I set. I'm not overly concerned about how it may or may not fit other people's needs. I have a hard enough time worrying about me

 

[spinedoc77]

I'm not connecting with this line of thinking at all. I get where you are coming from, but I don't think it is a widespread point of view.

The iPad has set the bar for consumer tablets. The fact that Microsoft tip-toed past the iPad to position the Surface Pro 3 to compete with the Macbook Air is their acknowledgement that the SP3 can't directly compete with the iPad. Ultrabook first, tablet second is the message Microsoft is sending. Why this is in dispute is quite puzzling to me.

Microsoft attempted to produce a product that umbrellas over both tablet and ultrabook... claiming that the SP3 does a good enough job in each to replace both. They're playing the angle that every ounce and every mm saved matters more than the functionality it provides. They more than merely implied that the SP3 is a replacement for an MBA + iPad Air.

There's a shell-game of sorts going on that Microsoft is playing. Whenever someone attempts to compare the SP3 to an iPad, the response is.. well it can do more than an iPad. That is so nebulous and subjective as to be essentially meaningless.

The "more" that the SP3 can do is not a proper superset of the functionality of the iPad. It is not "the SP3 can do everything that the iPad can and more" type of "more". It is "the SP3 can do some things that the iPad can't" type of "more". The same goes for any comparison of the SP3 to an MBA.

But in the end, people's opinions (as well as mine) have been formed and settled. Mine come from first hand experience with a Surface RT and Surface 2, Macbooks, Windows notebooks, iPads, and Android tablets. Based on that I've said what I think Microsoft needs to be successful with the Surface.

Synergy: the interaction or cooperation of two or more organizations, substances, or other agents to produce a combined effect greater than the sum of their separate effects.

This is at the heart of MS strategy, one I agree with. Apples solution is to carry around an ipad AND a laptop, MS solution just carry one device, less weight, less money spent, less hassle.

I wouldn't say the bar has been set with the ipad, I'd say it's been lowered to a great extent. The dumbifying of consumers was quite successful, but Apple had an easy road in that no one had anything close to the ipad in terms of hardware at the time. The only bar that has been set high is how many ipads Apple has sold. The Pro line was never meant to compete with the ipad, even from the Surface Pro 1 that was not their intention. It's a common mistake that many make to think that way though.

"Well it can do more than the ipad" is not nebulous, it's actually quite simple if you can read the words on the advertising that is right in front of you. Digitizer with stylus, full Office, millions of legacy windows programs, USB connectivity, those are just a few ways it's better than an ipad. Once again though it's not meant to be compared to an ipad, but if you forcing the comparison then there ya go. The SP3 can do EVERYTHING the ipad can do. The ipad has some apps that the SP3 has, although I'm unclear how devastating that is because after asking you multiple times you haven't stated which apps you are missing in the windows ecosystem. If a dev wanted to port an app from iOS to Windows there is NOTHING that the ipad can do that the SP3, or really any windows tablet couldn't do.

As for the MBA comparison, same thing EXCEPT the keyboard, which is overblown IMO because it's not like the MBA keyboard is that good, but I cannot deny that this is a completely valid complaint. It's definitely a compromise.

It's all opinion, but I think MS came out with a VERY strong contender for your ultrabook money, it's priced the same as the MBA with similar specs. So any tablet functionality you get is pretty much free. It's like Apple selling a MBA and saying on here, you get this ipad for free. Additionally although the keyboard is a compromise, you also compromise on the MBA, for example by not having a touchscreen. Which compromise you are willing to accept will, of course, depend on your particular needs.

 

[sracer]

I'm looking for a device that best fits my needs and works within the parameters I set. I'm not overly concerned about how it may or may not fit other people's needs. I have a hard enough time worrying about me

HA! Me too!

My frustration with Microsoft and the Surface 2 is that it is so close to actually delivering something better (for me) than the iPad. I'm saddened that the belief that "the apps currently available are good enough" is a commonly held one. And with that, there is no expectation of the situation improving. And so it goes.

 

[spinedoc77]

Just out of curiosity, what apps do you guys use on iOS that are not on Windows?

 

[m98custom1212]

Just out of curiosity, what apps do you guys use on iOS that are not on Windows?

I cant think of any for Ios but I hate Itunes


OSX:
Solidworks
NX (buggy and toned down in OSX)
Inventor
Minitab
Mathcad
Vault
TeamCenter
Notepad ++
Hsmworks
Bobcad
Sony Vegas
Office 2013 but should be out soon for OSX
I'm sure I'm missing some.

 

[spinedoc77]

"Apps" or Programs

Me:
Solidworks
NX buggy and toned down in OSX
Minitab
Mathcad
Vault
TeamCenter
Notepad ++
Hsmworks
Bobcad

I'm sure I'm missing some.

These are windows programs that are not available as iOS apps? I'm looking for apps on iOS that are NOT available as a windows app. I find it fascinating and I'm curious what people think make a windows tablet such a deal breaker in terms of its app market. Especially with the consumption nature of the ipad, windows seems to have consumption covered: books, video/movies, pdf readers, Office, email, web browser, pictures, cloud storage, etc etc.

It seems the discussion always returns to apps and why the lack of apps cripples a windows tablet so much. I'm curious about this. In fact I think I'll start a thread.

 

[m98custom1212]

These are windows programs that are not available as iOS apps? I'm looking for apps on iOS that are NOT available as a windows app. I find it fascinating and I'm curious what people think make a windows tablet such a deal breaker in terms of its app market. Especially with the consumption nature of the ipad, windows seems to have consumption coverd: books, video/movies, pdf readers, Office, email, web browser, pictures, cloud storage, etc etc.

I edited when I noticed you said IOS.. main reason I hate using Itunes

Android or Windows 8 Phone. I just plug my phone or tablet and its drag and drop

 

[Vegastouch]

These are windows programs that are not available as iOS apps? I'm looking for apps on iOS that are NOT available as a windows app. I find it fascinating and I'm curious what people think make a windows tablet such a deal breaker in terms of its app market. Especially with the consumption nature of the ipad, windows seems to have consumption covered: books, video/movies, pdf readers, Office, email, web browser, pictures, cloud storage, etc etc.

It seems the discussion always returns to apps and why the lack of apps cripples a windows tablet so much. I'm curious about this. In fact I think I'll start a thread.

Even apps that are on Windows, they arent near as good than on iOS or Android. eBay sucks on Windows as does Facebook and GMail. You cant even get a popular game like Candy Crush or many of the other games on Windows though they have games called something else that is similar.

Windows apps are improving but they have a ways to go. Id still buy a Windows 8 phone and want to do just that.

 

[sracer]

Even apps that are on Windows, they arent near as good than on iOS or Android. eBay sucks on Windows as does Facebook and GMail. You cant even get a popular game like Candy Crush or many of the other games on Windows though they have games called something else that is similar.

Windows apps are improving but they have a ways to go. Id still buy a Windows 8 phone and want to do just that.

That's been my ongoing frustration. In some cases, I'm willing to accept ANY application that performs the same function even if it isn't specifically a Windows version of its iOS counterpart. For example, I have need of a text editor that supports tags and supports DropBox. I use different apps on different operating systems (Android, iOS, Windows, OSX) but none for Windows RT.

 

[spinedoc77]

Even apps that are on Windows, they arent near as good than on iOS or Android. eBay sucks on Windows as does Facebook and GMail. You cant even get a popular game like Candy Crush or many of the other games on Windows though they have games called something else that is similar.

Windows apps are improving but they have a ways to go. Id still buy a Windows 8 phone and want to do just that.

Jeez, the ebay app sucks on iOS, I hated that app and would just go directly to the website thru safari. I'll take a look at the windows app, I've never used it because the website served all my needs.

Candy crush and other games is certainly important to recreation, does anyone find this as a deal breaker? I'm not a big iOS gamer, although I have purchased and played a decent amount of games. I like RPG's and liked games like Aralon/Ravensword and the Celtic Heroes MMO. The nice part about windows is you can play desktop games on there, so you literally have thousands and thousands of games which will run. Currently dabbling in the elder scrolls online and also play games like skyrim and tomb raider on my tablet.

I made a new thread for iOS apps not on windows if you guys want to comment on there:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1743646/

 

[m98custom1212]

Even apps that are on Windows, they arent near as good than on iOS or Android. eBay sucks on Windows as does Facebook and GMail. You cant even get a popular game like Candy Crush or many of the other games on Windows though they have games called something else that is similar.

Windows apps are improving but they have a ways to go. Id still buy a Windows 8 phone and want to do just that.

Dont use the gmail app use the mail app works great.

 

[sonicrobby]

Im really hopeful to see the Apple counterpart to this, next year if possible!

 

[zhenya]

Just out of curiosity, what apps do you guys use on iOS that are not on Windows?

On my ipad those apps include Pandora, Spotify, (not to mention the music app and they all integrate with my Airport Expresses and AppleTV's around the house via Airplay), subscriptions to half a dozen magazines, only one of which is available in Windows, Time Warner tv app, video apps that again integrate simply and reliably with our AppleTV's, a number of reading apps, a complete copy of the Oxford Dictionary of English, FaceTime, apps like Goodreader and Goodnotes for which I've found nothing of comparable quality in the Windows store, an app for my Nest thermostat, for my password manager that integrates facial recognition for convenient unlocking, and yes, even apps for stores like eBay, amazon, McMaster Carr and others that extend their excellent web interfaces into an even more touch friendly way. Not to mention the much larger library of quality games, the remote app I use to control our home theater, the fact that there is no gmail app in Windows, nor even any alternative touch browser other than IE that can stay in sync with all of my other browsers.

You go on constantly about how much iOS is crippled, when my experience has been that in re-defining the computer interface, they've made a device that does a LOT of things better than any other computing device I have. It's not less powerful, it's just designed for a different use case.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Even apps that are on Windows, they arent near as good than on iOS or Android. eBay sucks on Windows as does Facebook and GMail. You cant even get a popular game like Candy Crush or many of the other games on Windows though they have games called something else that is similar.

Windows apps are improving but they have a ways to go. Id still buy a Windows 8 phone and want to do just that.

No clue if you guys are talking about x86 W8 or ARM based RT

The way I see it, iOS has a lot of apps that are basically web portals needed to hide the fact Safari can't do Flash, upload attachments, and stuff like that. FB and Gmail fall in this category.

On W8 you get full functionality in the browser and apps that duplicate this functionality are now redundant. I don't need to use a FB app on my SP2. I just pin the actual website to Metro instead.