Surface Pro 3 announcement and prices

[sracer]

On my ipad those apps include Pandora, Spotify, (not to mention the music app and they all integrate with my Airport Expresses and AppleTV's around the house via Airplay), subscriptions to half a dozen magazines, only one of which is available in Windows, Time Warner tv app, video apps that again integrate simply and reliably with our AppleTV's, a number of reading apps, a complete copy of the Oxford Dictionary of English, FaceTime, apps like Goodreader and Goodnotes for which I've found nothing of comparable quality in the Windows store, an app for my Nest thermostat, for my password manager that integrates facial recognition for convenient unlocking, and yes, even apps for stores like eBay, amazon, McMaster Carr and others that extend their excellent web interfaces into an even more touch friendly way. Not to mention the much larger library of quality games, the remote app I use to control our home theater, the fact that there is no gmail app in Windows, nor even any alternative touch browser other than IE that can stay in sync with all of my other browsers.

You go on constantly about how much iOS is crippled, when my experience has been that in re-defining the computer interface, they've made a device that does a LOT of things better than any other computing device I have. It's not less powerful, it's just designed for a different use case.

One strawman I keep having to knock down on Windows-specific forums is "because MSIE is a full web browser on Windows RT then there is no need to have so many different apps".

The problems with that statement are:

1. MSIE on Windows RT is not actually the same browser that is on x86 Windows. It doesn't support Java and doesn't support browser plug-ins. Both of these issues can be cause for concern for students who need to access educational institution websites that require one or both. Yes, it has Flash, but there is more to a full web browser than supporting Flash.

2. Not all apps are app-ified websites. For every app that is a front-end to a website, there are dozens that are not.


I find it somewhat ironic that there is a sentiment expressed that the iPad specializes in consumption and the Surface specializes in creation but the thing that the iPad has in greater quality and quantity are those content creation apps.

 

[zhenya]

No clue if you guys are talking about x86 W8 or ARM based RT

The way I see it, iOS has a lot of apps that are basically web portals needed to hide the fact Safari can't do Flash, upload attachments, and stuff like that. FB and Gmail fall in this category.

On W8 you get full functionality in the browser and apps that duplicate this functionality are now redundant. I don't need to use a FB app on my SP2. I just pin the actual website to Metro instead.

Full web functionality is not the same thing as developing an app where everything is designed specifically for that platform and UI. That may have been the case a couple of years ago, but it's far from it today.

 

[spinedoc77]

On my ipad those apps include Pandora, Spotify, (not to mention the music app and they all integrate with my Airport Expresses and AppleTV's around the house via Airplay), subscriptions to half a dozen magazines, only one of which is available in Windows, Time Warner tv app, video apps that again integrate simply and reliably with our AppleTV's, a number of reading apps, a complete copy of the Oxford Dictionary of English, FaceTime, apps like Goodreader and Goodnotes for which I've found nothing of comparable quality in the Windows store, an app for my Nest thermostat, for my password manager that integrates facial recognition for convenient unlocking, and yes, even apps for stores like eBay, amazon, McMaster Carr and others that extend their excellent web interfaces into an even more touch friendly way. Not to mention the much larger library of quality games, the remote app I use to control our home theater, the fact that there is no gmail app in Windows, nor even any alternative touch browser other than IE that can stay in sync with all of my other browsers.

You go on constantly about how much iOS is crippled, when my experience has been that in re-defining the computer interface, they've made a device that does a LOT of things better than any other computing device I have. It's not less powerful, it's just designed for a different use case.

I agree, although the ipad/iOS is crippled for my needs it's not crippled for your needs. If anything it's the opposite, since you don't have the apps you need obviously you would choose the ipad. Thanks for the input.

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One strawman I keep having to knock down on Windows-specific forums is "because MSIE is a full web browser on Windows RT then there is no need to have so many different apps".

The problems with that statement are:

1. MSIE on Windows RT is not actually the same browser that is on x86 Windows. It doesn't support Java and doesn't support browser plug-ins. Both of these issues can be cause for concern for students who need to access educational institution websites that require one or both. Yes, it has Flash, but there is more to a full web browser than supporting Flash.

2. Not all apps are app-ified websites. For every app that is a front-end to a website, there are dozens that are not.


I find it somewhat ironic that there is a sentiment expressed that the iPad specializes in consumption and the Surface specializes in creation but the thing that the iPad has in greater quality and quantity are those content creation apps.

1) valid point, although I'm not discussing RT it still makes sense. Does RT have the IE11 desktop browser, or only the metro/modern one? Flash is a positive, but balanced with the negatives you point out. How does iOS Safari fare with flash, plugins and java?

As for content creation apps, I guess it depends on the user. I'll take things like photoshop, MS Office suite, etc for my needs. Most of the content creation stuff I've seen on iOS is watered down for big button touch use. I'm not saying it's the case all the time, but quite often when it's time to do some types of work you really just have to sit down and get the keyboard/mouse out. Sometimes not.

 

[spinedoc77]

On my ipad those apps include Pandora, Spotify, (not to mention the music app and they all integrate with my Airport Expresses and AppleTV's around the house via Airplay), subscriptions to half a dozen magazines, only one of which is available in Windows, Time Warner tv app, video apps that again integrate simply and reliably with our AppleTV's, a number of reading apps, a complete copy of the Oxford Dictionary of English, FaceTime, apps like Goodreader and Goodnotes for which I've found nothing of comparable quality in the Windows store, an app for my Nest thermostat, for my password manager that integrates facial recognition for convenient unlocking, and yes, even apps for stores like eBay, amazon, McMaster Carr and others that extend their excellent web interfaces into an even more touch friendly way. Not to mention the much larger library of quality games, the remote app I use to control our home theater, the fact that there is no gmail app in Windows, nor even any alternative touch browser other than IE that can stay in sync with all of my other browsers.

You go on constantly about how much iOS is crippled, when my experience has been that in re-defining the computer interface, they've made a device that does a LOT of things better than any other computing device I have. It's not less powerful, it's just designed for a different use case.

Pandora: has a desktop program and a phone app, not sure how that translates to a tablet.
Spotify: has a phone app, not sure how that translates to a tablet.
Which magazines? Zinio has a windows app
TWC has a desktop program but no app
which reading apps? Kindle has a windows app among a bunch of others
Oxford dictionary has a windows app
Facetime: windows has skype, not sure if this is valid since it's Apple only
Goodreader: Adobe pdf viewer, calibre, mobi reader, MS Office does a great job with PDF's as well, foxit reader. I use PDF annotation a LOT, I carry around gigabytes of medical references and reports on my tablets and used to use Good reader as well, but I don't miss it.
Nest thermostat: windows has an unofficial app, wpnest
Ebay/Amazon all have windows apps, personally I find the website to be far more functional than the iOS or windows app, but that's me.
Quality games, a good point if you like iOS games, a bad point if you like windows games.
gmail works perfectly in the email app, at least it does for me, but still a valid point not having a native app.

I think I got them all. I haven't researched each one and compared them so I won't say they are as good, I don't know. But it seems like there are alternatives to the vast majority of the things that keep you on iOS.

----------

No clue if you guys are talking about x86 W8 or ARM based RT

The way I see it, iOS has a lot of apps that are basically web portals needed to hide the fact Safari can't do Flash, upload attachments, and stuff like that. FB and Gmail fall in this category.

On W8 you get full functionality in the browser and apps that duplicate this functionality are now redundant. I don't need to use a FB app on my SP2. I just pin the actual website to Metro instead.

Well it's a SP3 thread so I'd say we are NOT talking about RT at all. Personally I won't defend RT in the least.

IE11 even the metro version trounces safari IMO, and then you can always fall back on desktop IE11 which, of course, is a real browser.

 

[zhenya]

Pandora: has a desktop program and a phone app, not sure how that translates to a tablet.
Spotify: has a phone app, not sure how that translates to a tablet.
Which magazines? Zinio has a windows app
TWC has a desktop program but no app
which reading apps? Kindle has a windows app among a bunch of others
Oxford dictionary has a windows app
Facetime: windows has skype, not sure if this is valid since it's Apple only
Goodreader: Adobe pdf viewer, calibre, mobi reader, MS Office does a great job with PDF's as well, foxit reader. I use PDF annotation a LOT, I carry around gigabytes of medical references and reports on my tablets and used to use Good reader as well, but I don't miss it.
Nest thermostat: windows has an unofficial app, wpnest
Ebay/Amazon all have windows apps, personally I find the website to be far more functional than the iOS or windows app, but that's me.
Quality games, a good point if you like iOS games, a bad point if you like windows games.
gmail works perfectly in the email app, at least it does for me, but still a valid point not having a native app.

I think I got them all. I haven't researched each one and compared them so I won't say they are as good, I don't know. But it seems like there are alternatives to the vast majority of the things that keep you on iOS.

Yes, of course most of them have desktop programs, but those are not at all the same experience as a purpose-built touch interface. Expanding a phone app to a 10-12" screen doesn't work either. In any case, for many of those programs, there is nothing at all in the Windows store other than some hack put together that kind of works, for now.

For the magazines, zinio has a one of the titles I subscribe to for subscription, several others it has but only to buy individual issues, and a couple others not at all. In any case, no generation of Surface has a format that makes for great magazine reading.

I use Skype, but FaceTime sees plenty of usage as well; I'd definitely miss it.

Several months ago I tried a number of PDF annotating apps on the Surface. Every one was limited in function and unstable. iOS has easily a dozen apps that are better at this. Maybe that's changed recently.

The big one, other than the form factor, is the tv and audio streaming infrastructure that I have that is simple cheap and reliable. I have become wholly expectant that any audio or video content I have on my tablet or phone can instantly be streamed to any stereo or tv in our house. We use it every day. Piecing something like that together on Windows would be a challenge.

 

[Liquorpuki]

Full web functionality is not the same thing as developing an app where everything is designed specifically for that platform and UI. That may have been the case a couple of years ago, but it's far from it today.

My opinion is there's little need for apps that are basically holdovers from a time when you couldn't upload a file through your tablet's browser. The justification for the existence of these apps back in the day was functionality, not interface. Browsers were already detecting mobile devices and resizing pages. But the only way you were gonna be able to upload a photo to FB on your iPad 1 back in the day was through an app.

As a SP user, if I want to upload a photo through FB with touch, I can just use Metro IE.

Well it's a SP3 thread so I'd say we are NOT talking about RT at all. Personally I won't defend RT in the least.

I don't like RT either but sracer has been saying RT every other post and people still confuse RT, Pro, their ecosystems & chipsets.

 

[sracer]

I don't like RT either but sracer has been saying RT every other post and people still confuse RT, Pro, their ecosystems & chipsets.

Yes, I continue to refer to Windows RT because only Modern UI apps are available for it. It makes it clear that I'm referring to Modern UI apps. If I refer to the Surface Pro, there is ambiguity as to whether we're talking about Modern UI apps or desktop apps.

There is no question that the Surface Pro tablets can handle x86 desktop apps. The crux of the matter is in the availability and quality of apps developed for the Modern UI.

 

[Vegastouch]

No clue if you guys are talking about x86 W8 or ARM based RT

The way I see it, iOS has a lot of apps that are basically web portals needed to hide the fact Safari can't do Flash, upload attachments, and stuff like that. FB and Gmail fall in this category.

On W8 you get full functionality in the browser and apps that duplicate this functionality are now redundant. I don't need to use a FB app on my SP2. I just pin the actual website to Metro instead.

I'm talking Windows 8.1 that I use on my Yoga 11s. For the ones I mentioned I go to the website instead because the apps imo, are so bad.

 

[spinedoc77]

Yes, of course most of them have desktop programs, but those are not at all the same experience as a purpose-built touch interface. Expanding a phone app to a 10-12" screen doesn't work either. In any case, for many of those programs, there is nothing at all in the Windows store other than some hack put together that kind of works, for now.

For the magazines, zinio has a one of the titles I subscribe to for subscription, several others it has but only to buy individual issues, and a couple others not at all. In any case, no generation of Surface has a format that makes for great magazine reading.

I use Skype, but FaceTime sees plenty of usage as well; I'd definitely miss it.

Several months ago I tried a number of PDF annotating apps on the Surface. Every one was limited in function and unstable. iOS has easily a dozen apps that are better at this. Maybe that's changed recently.

The big one, other than the form factor, is the tv and audio streaming infrastructure that I have that is simple cheap and reliable. I have become wholly expectant that any audio or video content I have on my tablet or phone can instantly be streamed to any stereo or tv in our house. We use it every day. Piecing something like that together on Windows would be a challenge.

Fair enough, thanks for elaborating. I'd be curious if Microsoft plans on beefing up their streaming TV/music like Apple has. I suppose the Xbox is Microsofts media device, but it's a mighty expensive solution.

----------

Yes, I continue to refer to Windows RT because only Modern UI apps are available for it. It makes it clear that I'm referring to Modern UI apps. If I refer to the Surface Pro, there is ambiguity as to whether we're talking about Modern UI apps or desktop apps.

There is no question that the Surface Pro tablets can handle x86 desktop apps. The crux of the matter is in the availability and quality of apps developed for the Modern UI.

I don't think that's the crux of this thread, which is specifically about the Surface Pro 3. If we were having a conversation about windows RT tablets I'd probably agree with 90% of what you are saying.

I don't blame you or the consumer, Microsoft made this VERY confusing to the average consumer by introducing windows RT. Let's not get off on a RT tangent though, that's for another time and thread.

 

[zhenya]

Fair enough, thanks for elaborating. I'd be curious if Microsoft plans on beefing up their streaming TV/music like Apple has. I suppose the Xbox is Microsofts media device, but it's a mighty expensive solution.

Yep, it's a big hole, IMO in both Microsoft and Android's offering. Chromecast is a big step in that direction for Google, but it's primarily based on video at a time when streaming music is taking off. Both companies need a cheap audio streamer that can be connected to any stereo and works system-wide. Lack of access to this feature is one of the primary reasons I don't even bother using my brand-new laptop at home anymore. It feels so limiting having anything except for itunes audio confined to the laptop speakers and screen. Almost any time I'm home we have music streaming somewhere in the house.

 

[Cnasty]

So when can we expect a price drop once these things arent flying off the shelf like iPads/Macbooks?

 

[sracer]

So when can we expect a price drop once these things arent flying off the shelf like iPads/Macbooks?

Don't expect one. Microsoft has adjusted their manufacturing run orders to more closely reflect expected demand. For a variety of reasons they needed to produce a large quantity of 1st gen devices... that won't happen again.

 

[Cnasty]

Darn, they learned their lesson.

I dont see this selling well at all to the general public but maybe I am just throwing darts.

 

[Renzatic]

I'm looking for a device that best fits my needs and works within the parameters I set. I'm not overly concerned about how it may or may not fit other people's needs. I have a hard enough time worrying about me

Keep me in the back of your mind when you're playing with it, because I'm dead set on buying an expensive portable machine this year, and I'm torn between the SP3 and a 15" rMBP.

For what I mostly use a computer for, the Surface Pro 3 looks just about perfect. I rarely ever type up long documents on my lap, and being able to interface directly with the screen would help me tons. If I want a good keyboard, I can pair my Apple Bluetooth with it, and use it almost like a pick-up-and-go mini iMac. Thing is, the rMBP has considerably more power, a larger screen, and a proven form factor. I could pair it a wireless Wacom tablet, and get a good approximation of the stylus digitizer on the SP. It wouldn't be quite as sleek, but it's all a known quantity. I know it'll work well.

That's my biggest problem with the SP3, it's all unknown. It looks great, and I think it's one of the best designed pieces of tech since the MBA and rMBP. But I'm not sure how well an MBA level machine will work for what I do. How powerful is it? Do all the desktop apps work as well on a touchscreen/pen driven device as they do with the traditional keyboard and mouse? Does it get flaky when you drive it hard? My only experience with the Surface line is with an SP2 in a local Best Buy, and I've got too many "ifs" about it to justify running out right this second and dropping $1500 on one.

When you finally get your hands on it, and have spent a week or two playing with it, I hope you write up a semi detailed review, because I'd love to hear about what you have to say about it. Especially since you currently own an MBP, and can offer up a direct comparison with everything I'm mulling over.

 

[Cnasty]

I kind of asked this before but will only pre-orders be in the store on the 20th or will they have actual stock that anyone coming there that may see it for the first time can walk in and buy one right off the shelf?

 

[diamond.g]

I kind of asked this before but will only pre-orders be in the store on the 20th or will they have actual stock that anyone coming there that may see it for the first time can walk in and buy one right off the shelf?

Most likey they will have limited stock until the 22nd. Folks have until then to pick up their pre-orders in store. Now other retailers, like Best-buy, may have stock as I don't think they offered pre-orders.

 

[eelpout]

I kind of asked this before but will only pre-orders be in the store on the 20th or will they have actual stock that anyone coming there that may see it for the first time can walk in and buy one right off the shelf?

No one here knows for sure of course. But if it's like the Surface Pro 2, MS stores and places like Best Buy will have a handful in stock at launch. Note again, only i5 models will be available on the 20th.

 

[maflynn]

Keep me in the back of your mind when you're playing with it, because I'm dead set on buying an expensive portable machine this year, and I'm torn between the SP3 and a 15" rMBP.

I haven't fully vetted out whether the SP3 is the right tool for me yet. I have it on order to keep myself in line for one, but I'm not done mulling things over.

For instance, the rMPB has been and continues to be the best laptop I've ever bought. Will I be giving up too much, including the ability to use OSX.

I think MS Office for windows is light years ahead of the OSX flavor and so for my work day I'm in windows but I do like OSX and having my rMBP dual boot provides benefits that are not duplicated on the SP3.

There are other aspects that I'm considering, i.e., I really like the tablet feature of the SP3 and note taking. Does that offset my stated concerns?

tl;dr: I'm not done deciding whether to buy it

 

[sracer]

Darn, they learned their lesson.

I dont see this selling well at all to the general public but maybe I am just throwing darts.

LOL I KNEW that the Surface RT would be firesaled, and I jumped on it when it was. I would be greatly surprised of there was similar deep-discounting of the SP3. But if by some chance that happens, I'll be on it too.

 

[Cnasty]

I sold my ipad last week as I rarely used it since I got my Note 3 and then this was announced so I made the decision to sell it.

Now I am tabletless but really dont want to jump on a day 1 big release like this and spend that coin right now on something I dont necessarily need at this point.

But make no mistake, I want it!

 

[B...]

I haven't fully vetted out whether the SP3 is the right tool for me yet. I have it on order to keep myself in line for one, but I'm not done mulling things over.

For instance, the rMPB has been and continues to be the best laptop I've ever bought. Will I be giving up too much, including the ability to use OSX.

I think MS Office for windows is light years ahead of the OSX flavor and so for my work day I'm in windows but I do like OSX and having my rMBP dual boot provides benefits that are not duplicated on the SP3.

There are other aspects that I'm considering, i.e., I really like the tablet feature of the SP3 and note taking. Does that offset my stated concerns?

tl;dr: I'm not done deciding whether to buy it

I visited the MSFT store again today. Did you notice that the kickstand was a little wobbly on the table? It was pretty secure when trying to press it down, but there was a little give on any particular angle.

 

[Renzatic]

tl;dr: I'm not done deciding whether to buy it

Sounds like you're suffering from the same thing I am.

The way I think of it, the MBP is more a jack of all trades device that does everything really well. The Surface? To me, it's an digital artist/designer device first and foremost. That's where it's strongest, and where it beats the MBP in user experience. Using an MBP with a Wacom tablet is far from terrible, but it won't give you that feeling of direct interaction the Surface does. There's a lot to be said about being able to draw, model, sculpt and write directly on the screen.

But to be good in this one area, it had to make sacrifices elsewhere, and that sacrifice is...dramatic pause...the keyboard. This is entirely my personal opinion, but I don't think the type cover is all that great. Admittedly, I haven't used it much, and if I spent more time with it, I probably could get used to it, but my limited experiences with it didn't leave me all that impressed. Granted, I could use any keyboard I feel like, since it's a Windows machine, but both solutions ultimately require you have a table or a desk to set it all up on. It's kinda like my iPad in a way. If I'm typing up something longwinded on it, I'll do it at the house where I've got a bunch of flat spaces to set everything up on. Even with the SP3's lap-happy improvements, it still won't be as comfortable as a laptop here.

The MBP's biggest advantage is that it's good at everything. While it doesn't do some things as well, it doesn't really sacrifice anything, either. The SP3 is spectacular at some things, weak to merely middling at others. It's a more specific device.

But then you think about the SP3's snazzy dock, and how you can set it up with a mouse, keyboard, external HDD's, and a big screen, while keeping it as a second touch enabled monitor without taking up barely any space, and...

....you know, I wish I had enough money to get both.

 

[maflynn]

I know what you mean, I keep waffling

I think I'm leaning to cancelling my order and waiting until its out for general consumption for two reasons.

1. Waiting for more indepth reviews and hands on experiences by users not the handful of reviewers

2. We may see sales/discounts for the SP3 once we get into the school season or the Holiday season later this year.

 

[eelpout]

I dont see this selling well at all to the general public but maybe I am just throwing darts.

LOL I KNEW that the Surface RT would be firesaled, and I jumped on it when it was. I would be greatly surprised of there was similar deep-discounting of the SP3. But if by some chance that happens, I'll be on it too.

I don't think anyone would qualify the Surface Pro line as any kind of failure, the Surface RT on the other hand...

My biggest issue with the SP3 is it really isn't any big gain over my SP2 in compute power or battery life; it's much a lateral move. It's the same i5 4300u and I believe the same 42 watt-hour battery. Not sure I'm willing to make any kind of trade up until there's a Broadwell. And by that time of course others will also be improving their line like Asus and Lenovo. But I do like my SP2, a lot.

 

[maflynn]

My biggest issue with the SP3 is it really isn't any big gain over my SP2 in compute power or battery life

My guess is that they wanted to put a broadwell chipset into the SP3 but once Intel delayed it, they decided to release it anyways with the same chipset.