Surface Pro, Sick!

[Phil A.]

Personally, I think the Surface Pro is a great concept, but I dislike widescreen as a format for tablets - I had Transformer and it was brilliant when docked or when in landscape, but terrible in portrait mode: just felt too tall and too thin

I prefer to use tablets in portrait mode so wouldn't consider a widescreen format tablet

 

[borka105]

I might be in the minority on this site, but a lot of folks on another message board focused solely on the Surface also feel that the RT is the better device.

It is the device without compromise... the Pro is better on paper than it is in real life usage.

The Surface RT has the battery life, is light weight, matched the iPad on price, but also incorporates the Surface's secret sauce: Keyboard, Usb Port, Upgradable storage, kick stand, MS Office, Live Tiles.

The other issues people who have the Pro are realizing is that it sucks to look/run/play with native Windows Apps on a tablet type device. They are not designed for touch and having to now carry around a mouse makes the Surface a tad less portable. You certainly can't hold the tablet and mouse while on a couch...

I know you cannot compare the Pro to an ARM tablet and that is not what I am doing. I am simply stating that the Surface RT does not promise to do something it cannot fully execute on without sacrifices.

 

[TheHateMachine]

Not at all. However, I confess I also felt confused when I was looking at Dell tablets earlier today and noticed that they offered two varieties of Win 8. Here's a page at Microsoft showing the diff between plain Win 8 and Win 8 Pro.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows/buy

Not sure I understand what the extra features of the Pro do, exactly... But that's Microsoft for you, I guess.

Pro gives you three large features over regular one. Most of this stuff really isn't a big deal for your average consumer.

You get Encryption for your storage, the ability to remotely connect to your pc and use it from another pc and the ability to join company networks and authenticate on their network using their passwords (If you work for somewhere that has a login system under windows you could login to that system with your Windows 8 Pro copy on your pc)

 

[spinedoc77]

I might be in the minority on this site, but a lot of folks on another message board focused solely on the Surface also feel that the RT is the better device.

It is the device without compromise... the Pro is better on paper than it is in real life usage.

The Surface RT has the battery life, is light weight, matched the iPad on price, but also incorporates the Surface's secret sauce: Keyboard, Usb Port, Upgradable storage, kick stand, MS Office, Live Tiles.

The other issues people who have the Pro are realizing is that it sucks to look/run/play with native Windows Apps on a tablet type device. They are not designed for touch and having to now carry around a mouse makes the Surface a tad less portable. You certainly can't hold the tablet and mouse while on a couch...

I know you cannot compare the Pro to an ARM tablet and that is not what I am doing. I am simply stating that the Surface RT does not promise to do something it cannot fully execute on without sacrifices.

The Rt tablets are full of compromise imo, wayyyy more than any other tablet, but I understand a select few will be happy with them, although besides the attaches keyboard and free office I fail to see them having any benefit whatsoever over an atom tablet. Plus I disagree, native windows programs are quite easy to use with the right scaling. This is where the surface pro fails, not because of windows but because of the horrible scaling.

 

[zhenya]

Some more updates, this time more positive.

-Stereo speakers are impressive. They are relatively Clear and Much more Stereo effect than I would have expected on a device this size.

- the written pen input option for the keyboard is seriously good. It is Smooth, fast, and ridiculously accurate. I wish the pen was this good in Onenote.

-as I adjust to this layout I am More impressed. Make No mistake, the issues I raised before are real, but I am enjoying this More than before.

Make this thing 50% thinner and lighter, with twice the battery life, with a real docking Station able to drive two monitors and it'll be a killer device. Fortunately that reality is probably not that far off.

(this post written by pen, excuse the extra caps).

 

[Night Spring]

Plus I disagree, native windows programs are quite easy to use with the right scaling. This is where the surface pro fails, not because of windows but because of the horrible scaling.

Is the scaling problem specific to the Surface Pro, or is it a problem with Win8 machines in general? If it's a specific Surface problem, which Win8 devices handle it well?

 

[zhenya]

Is the scaling problem specific to the Surface Pro, or is it a problem with Win8 machines in general? If it's a specific Surface problem, which Win8 devices handle it well?

Hope you don't mind if I clarify.

The Surface is ironically hamstrung by its own high resolution screen. Because it has a 1920x1080 panel, if the Desktop is rendered at that resolution, all UI elements are TINY. (Remember, the iPad has a 2048x1536 resolution, but only 1024x768 points of content displayed).

In order to make things visible and touch capable, you must scale them up - the default is by 150%. The problem when you attach an external monitor is that the monitor then ALSO scales everything up by 150% which you really don't want because it makes everything huge. There is currently no way to define separate scaling on a per-monitor basis, and if you connect to a monitor regularly, you must delve into the Windows settings to change this every time you connect or disconnect.

Tablets that have lower resolutions, ironically don't have this issue because no scaling is necessary.

 

[Night Spring]

Hope you don't mind if I clarify.

The Surface is ironically hamstrung by its own high resolution screen. Because it has a 1920x1080 panel, if the Desktop is rendered at that resolution, all UI elements are TINY. (Remember, the iPad has a 2048x1536 resolution, but only 1024x768 points of content displayed).

In order to make things visible and touch capable, you must scale them up - the default is by 150%. The problem when you attach an external monitor is that the monitor then ALSO scales everything up by 150% which you really don't want because it makes everything huge. There is currently no way to define separate scaling on a per-monitor basis, and if you connect to a monitor regularly, you must delve into the Windows settings to change this every time you connect or disconnect.

Tablets that have lower resolutions, ironically don't have this issue because no scaling is necessary.

Thank you. That was very clear.

It seems odd that you can't set DPI on a per-monitor basis. Is that so only on Win8, or all Windows systems? I do occasionally hook up my laptop (Win7) to an external monitor, but I'd never thought about the DPI -- I know that the screen resolution changes when I connect/disconnect from external monitors, but I never felt I had to reset the DPI, probably because it's not such a big deal with non-touch systems.

 

[zhenya]

Thank you. That was very clear.

It seems odd that you can't set DPI on a per-monitor basis. Is that so only on Win8, or all Windows systems? I do occasionally hook up my laptop (Win7) to an external monitor, but I'd never thought about the DPI -- I know that the screen resolution changes when I connect/disconnect from external monitors, but I never felt I had to reset the DPI, probably because it's not such a big deal with non-touch systems.

It has always been that way. DPI scaling has never worked well in Windows, so it's not something you normally hear much about. This should really light a fire at MS to fix it now though.

 

[Night Spring]

It has always been that way. DPI scaling has never worked well in Windows, so it's not something you normally hear much about. This should really light a fire at MS to fix it now though.

Well, at least Windows has DPI scaling. I'd love to be able to scale DPI on OS X, all the menu and system fonts on my 27 inch iMac are so tiny, I can hardly read them.

 

[MuffCabbage]

Thank you. That was very clear.

It seems odd that you can't set DPI on a per-monitor basis. Is that so only on Win8, or all Windows systems? I do occasionally hook up my laptop (Win7) to an external monitor, but I'd never thought about the DPI -- I know that the screen resolution changes when I connect/disconnect from external monitors, but I never felt I had to reset the DPI, probably because it's not such a big deal with non-touch systems.

Its a Windows thing (Metro addresses it though)
Microsoft stated they are working on implementing some sort of fix, however they decide to do it.

Right now Metro takes resolution AND screen size into account when rendering elements so it is smarter in that regard than the desktop side.

 

[Cod3rror]

Its a Windows thing (Metro addresses it though)
Microsoft stated they are working on implementing some sort of fix, however they decide to do it.

Right now Metro takes resolution AND screen size into account when rendering elements so it is smarter in that regard than the desktop side.

I hope they figure something out.

Setting DPI to anything other than 100% screws up how Windows looks.

 

[iPhoneApple]

Does the surface work well/ok-ish in a lap?

Does it work well as just a tablet? (and how are the windows store apps on it?)

Would you consider it a full laptop replacement even with the small battery life?

Would you recommend the surface pro now or would you recommend waiting for version 2?

 

[jamojamo]

Does the surface work well/ok-ish in a lap?

Does it work well as just a tablet? (and how are the windows store apps on it?)

Would you consider it a full laptop replacement even with the small battery life?

Would you recommend the surface pro now or would you recommend waiting for version 2?

All of those questions were answered in the thread basically all you need to do is read the full thread.

 

[Cod3rror]

Does the surface work well/ok-ish in a lap?

Does it work well as just a tablet? (and how are the windows store apps on it?)

Would you consider it a full laptop replacement even with the small battery life?

Would you recommend the surface pro now or would you recommend waiting for version 2?

Surface is a product ahead of what current hardware allows. It's ahead of its time, a reference product.

Wait for version 3, then all the problems will be solved.

The CPU is going to be truly mobile, yet powerful and will allow for a fanless, thin design. Intel SkyLake-SkyMont CPUs.
It'll have 8GB of RAM
512GB of storage, at least.
More than one USB 3.0 port
Long battery life
DPI scaling of Windows Destkop will hopefully be solved.
Windows will be a more mature touch product. More converged.

Surface form factor is the future, but right now, it is not ready.

 

[zhenya]

The other problem will remain in that the screen is just a little too small to comfortably work on for any period of time. I have been trying to spend my afternoons working solely on the Surface (as my laptop replacement) and even with solid 20/10 vision it gets uncomfortable after a few hours.

 

[VFC]

Is the scaling problem specific to the Surface Pro, or is it a problem with Win8 machines in general? If it's a specific Surface problem, which Win8 devices handle it well?

The 13" Lenovo Yoga has a 1600x900 resolution; scaling is not needed as the characters are easy to read in native mode. I wanted a hybrid that I can use without putting on my reading glasses. I could barely read the MS Surface screen without them.

 

[spinedoc77]

Hope you don't mind if I clarify.

The Surface is ironically hamstrung by its own high resolution screen. Because it has a 1920x1080 panel, if the Desktop is rendered at that resolution, all UI elements are TINY. (Remember, the iPad has a 2048x1536 resolution, but only 1024x768 points of content displayed).

In order to make things visible and touch capable, you must scale them up - the default is by 150%. The problem when you attach an external monitor is that the monitor then ALSO scales everything up by 150% which you really don't want because it makes everything huge. There is currently no way to define separate scaling on a per-monitor basis, and if you connect to a monitor regularly, you must delve into the Windows settings to change this every time you connect or disconnect.

Tablets that have lower resolutions, ironically don't have this issue because no scaling is necessary.

The external monitor issue is one thing, something Microsoft is actually on record saying they are aggressively pursuing a solution. But the bigger problem IMO is the scaling on the surface screen itself. This is the BIG issue consumers cry about when they say the desktop is not suitable for a tablet. It is confusing, because what is iOS but a desktop? But Apple have scaled their UI elements correctly, allowing for finger use and for use at arms length.

This is where we start to get into things I think MS screwed up on. Firstly they should have designed their UI to scale up correctly, things like hitting close, minimize, resizing windows, of course font sizes, buttons, etc etc should all have been reworked YEARS ago. I'm coming from a background of Windows Mobile and Windows CE, they did this crap 10+ freakin years ago, we'd have a pocket PC with these tiny little UI elements, MS just didn't get it back then. Back then it was excusable, even though Palm did get the UI right, still we cut MS a break, but today with iOS and android it is just inexcusable to have the UI scaled the way it is on the desktop. So what did MS do? The exact opposite, they virtually completely ignored the desktop and created a new "mobile" tablet OS, Metro, and in doing so confused and pissed off a lot of consumer. All MS needed to do was adjust their desktop and Metro would not have even needed to exist. Granted legacy programs would have had an issue, but the choice now is to write a totally new Metro program, where in my scenario a developer would only have to rewrite with the new UI interfaces. I'm sure this could be made easy for the developer, just as Apple makes it a no brainer for their developers.

The UI is very usable on the Atom processors with the lower resolution, and looks quite good, arguably just as good as the higher resolution on the surface Pro, but much more usable. This is something either MS will get with time, or they won't and they will phase the desktop out in favor of Metro, which is an abomination IMO.

 

[VFC]

The 13" Lenovo Yoga has a 1600x900 resolution; scaling is not needed as the characters are easy to read in native mode. I wanted a hybrid that I could use without putting on my reading glasses. I could barely read the MS Surface screen without them.

I ruled out the high-res 10-12" Win 8 hybrids during my research largely because of the scaling issues. I also ruled out the MacBook Pro retina for the same reason. I ended up getting the 2012 15" cMBP at 1440x900.

 

[Abazigal]

Surface is a product ahead of what current hardware allows. It's ahead of its time, a reference product.

Wait for version 3, then all the problems will be solved.

The CPU is going to be truly mobile, yet powerful and will allow for a fanless, thin design. Intel SkyLake-SkyMont CPUs.
It'll have 8GB of RAM
512GB of storage, at least.
More than one USB 3.0 port
Long battery life
DPI scaling of Windows Destkop will hopefully be solved.
Windows will be a more mature touch product. More converged.

Surface form factor is the future, but right now, it is not ready.

I have my reservations about a 16:9 tablet (prefer the ipad's 4:3 ratio), but that is probably an issue of personal preference.

I think the issue with apps being touch-centric is that the Surface currently supports way too many modes of input (keyboard/trackpad/touchscreen/mouse/stylus). If I were a programmer, I would likely just take the easy way out and just update my app for windows8, with minimal changes. What incentive would I have to completely redesign my app for touch?

That's why, in a way, I think the ipad's restrictions actually worked in its favour. When the only reliable way of interacting with it is multi-touch, this all but forces developers to design around it, because you cannot expect people to be toting bluetooth keyboards and styluses around.

Microsoft's job is far from done. I think their next task is to convince, or even bully (when necessary) developers into designing their apps the way Microsoft envisions.

 

[laserfox]

To some extent, yes, but only because my computing experience is now partially defined by the existence of the ipad, and as I've said all along, there are certain things that the ipad brings to the table that are extremely valuable. I've also said that the Surface is a compromise on both fronts, and so far that expectation is being proven by reality. It's a significantly worse tablet than an ipad or an android device, while also being a significantly worse laptop than almost everything else out there. Adding the touch interface doesn't seem of that much value to me because there is nowhere in this OS or this device where it is optimized; Modern apps are too limited, and the desktop mode can't really be navigated smoothly without using the trackpad or the pen.

I'm just not seeing what this brings to the table compared to a good ultrabook. It's not a terrible alternative to an ultrabook for someone who really wants a touch device integrated into their main computer, but honestly, a nice ultrabook and an ipad mini or nexus 7 is a much better combo than this single device at the moment. (admittedly at a higher cost)

I can say honestly that there hasn't been a piece of tech in a long time that I was as excited as this to get my hands on, so I'll definitely keep at it for a while yet before making a final verdict; these are just my early impressions.

Honestly I disagree. I own the Surface RT and a laptop. I use my Surface for 90% of the things I normally did on my icore 7 15.6 inch laptop. Its much more portable, comfortable to use in tablet form and when used with the touch cover on a flat surface I still manage to get my work done.

Now if I had the Surface Pro I wouldn't need the laptop at all since it remains docked to my 26inch monitor which the surface can easily do.

Now you say the Pro is a worst tablet than the iPad, in some ways yes (apps, longer battery life) but the iPad lacks usb, digital inking- a huge benefit on a slate!, flash support , and many other things that you compromised your workflow with. Etc

Now the question is would someone be contented with a surface pro + smartphone instead of a ultrabook +iPad mini + smartphone and I say yes!

 

[spinedoc77]

Honestly I disagree. I own the Surface RT and a laptop. I use my Surface for 90% of the things I normally did on my icore 7 15.6 inch laptop. Its much more portable, comfortable to use in tablet form and when used with the touch cover on a flat surface I still manage to get my work done.

Now if I had the Surface Pro I wouldn't need the laptop at all since it remains docked to my 26inch monitor which the surface can easily do.

Now you say the Pro is a worst tablet than the iPad, in some ways yes (apps, longer battery life) but the iPad lacks usb, digital inking- a huge benefit on a slate!, flash support , and many other things that you compromised your workflow with. Etc

Now the question is would someone be contented with a surface pro + smartphone instead of a ultrabook +iPad mini + smartphone and I say yes!

Its not that the surface is a worse tablet than the iPad, because in many important ways the iPad is a much much worse tablet than the surface. For me the pro was worse than an "ideal" tablet, specifically the atom powered tablets which show just how inferior and how much of a great compromise having an iPad is. It gets murkier with more powerful programs, where the surface pro both shows its strengths, but interestingly also shows weakness against a laptop. At least the atom powered tablets have no weakness against the iPad, and quite a few strengths.

I also highly disagree that the desktop is hard to use in tablet mode IF the UI and scaling is correct, which on the pro its not. There are many things about a simplified UI like on the iPad which hinder productivity, power, choice, etc. There are no new paradigms on the desktop, x still closes a program for example, now we just need UI refinements instead of the childish ios UI which went much too far in that direction.

 

[Tulani]

Did you say you installed any antivirus on it?

 

[NowhereOutThere]

I, for one, am in love with my Surface Pro. As a student, OneNote plus the digitizer/stylus is a godsend. I really like Windows 8, coming from Mac OS X 10.8. The weight is not a huge deal, at least to me... and I am not a very muscular person. I picked up both types of keyboards (Type and Touch) with a Wedge mouse, and I almost like the touch cover a tad more if only for the novelty and color. The mouse is extremely portable, does not take up a USB slot like some other mice and can be used on practically any surface with ease. It also makes for a more pleasant experience navigating the desktop when working, as opposed to touching or using the (admittedly bad) trackpads on the covers.

 

[pesos]

I, for one, am in love with my Surface Pro. As a student, OneNote plus the digitizer/stylus is a godsend. I really like Windows 8, coming from Mac OS X 10.8. The weight is not a huge deal, at least to me... and I am not a very muscular person. I picked up both types of keyboards (Type and Touch) with a Wedge mouse, and I almost like the touch cover a tad more if only for the novelty and color. The mouse is extremely portable, does not take up a USB slot like some other mice and can be used on practically any surface with ease. It also makes for a more pleasant experience navigating the desktop when working, as opposed to touching or using the (admittedly bad) trackpads on the covers.

Agreed. I plan on picking up a wedge soon. Overall the Pro is a great device and was a pleasure to use this past week while on the road. Looking forward to the improvements Lenovo seems to have on tap with the upcoming Helix.