Surface Studio discussion

[Sirmausalot]

I think if you look at the 5K iMac it was specifically tailored for Final Cut Pro X and 4K editing. The Surface Pro is specifically tailored to artists who use a pen to compose: architect, illustrators, and musicians.

Apple HAS experimented with touch for the end computer user and that first foray was the iPad Pro that was designed to be used with a keyboard and stylus and was pitched as a full on laptop replacement. Yes, it runs iOS which has some serious limitations, but I suspect was a way for them to test if both iOS and a combo system could scale larger.

 

[theluggage]

Lately, Apple has been rehashing products with different sizes and different colors.

That would never have happened when Steve Jobs was alive...

But, seriously, yes - although Apple are quite right that touchscreen + regular desktop/laptop = gorilla arm syndrome, that pre-assumes that the only option is to slap a touchscreen on an iMac. I'm sure the surface is not the first "easel-style" computer that has been done, but its giving the idea a high profile. We'll probably see the affordable versions from Dell/Lenovo/Asus etc. next year.

I'm sure that, 30+ years ago, people were saying how the Mac's mouse and graphical user interface were great for artists, but that most users just needed a slightly faster version of DOS.

 

[tubeexperience]

That would never have happened when Steve Jobs was alive...

But, seriously, yes - although Apple are quite right that touchscreen + regular desktop/laptop = gorilla arm syndrome, that pre-assumes that the only option is to slap a touchscreen on an iMac. I'm sure the surface is not the first "easel-style" computer that has been done, but its giving the idea a high profile. We'll probably see the affordable versions from Dell/Lenovo/Asus etc. next year.

I'm sure that, 30+ years ago, people were saying how the Mac's mouse and graphical user interface were great for artists, but that most users just needed a slightly faster version of DOS.

Steve Jobs would be happy to know that Microsoft has fixed his problem.

This is what Steve Jobs actually said:

"We've done tons of user testing on this, and it turns out it doesn't work. Touch surfaces don't want to be vertical.

It gives great demo but after a short period of time, you start to fatigue and after an extended period of time, your arm wants to fall off. it doesn't work, it's ergonomically terrible."

 

[SteveJobzniak]

To the two guys above: You are correct. Touchscreens used by pros are not vertical like a regular screen. They are angled like a music mixing desk/console, or like a drawing board.

See this Slate Raven professional music production touchscreen, and pay attention to its angle:

 

[CWallace]

I'm sure the surface is not the first "easel-style" computer that has been done, but its giving the idea a high profile. We'll probably see the affordable versions from Dell/Lenovo/Asus etc. next year.

Lenovo had the A740 All-in-One Desktop with a 1920x1080 27" touchscreen that could tit from 90 to -5 degrees and was "man portable" (per the advertisements showing a woman carrying it around the house from room to room). They also made an IdeaCentre B540 at 23" with a much shallower adjustment angle.

Both have been discontinued with no replacement model that I can see.

 

[tubeexperience]

Lenovo had the A740 All-in-One Desktop with a 1920x1080 27" touchscreen that could tit from 90 to -5 degrees and was "man portable" (per the advertisements showing a woman carrying it around the house from room to room). They also made an IdeaCentre B540 at 23" with a much shallower adjustment angle.

Both have been discontinued with no replacement model that I can see.

Microsoft didn't invent the tilting screen.

Apple didn't invent the touchscreen nor multi-touch.

It's not just about being the first one to do something, but to make something useful out of it.

 

[fokmik]

i already see the flaws from this video, i still wait for mine to test it, but what i was pretty sure what problems will have this kind of device, this video confirm those

 

[smoledman]

i already see the flaws from this video, i still wait for mine to test it, but what i was pretty sure what problems will have this kind of device, this video confirm those

The main problem with this is the price and dated I/O.

 

[fokmik]

The main problem with this is the price and dated I/O.

and the base is not entirely sealed, you have to move up and down the screen a lot, if you make a lot of stuff between drawing and conference calls, no usb-c, the base seems loud under load, hard to use touch while standing down/chair, is meant to be used standing up

 

[maflynn]

The main problem with this is the price and dated I/O.

Same thing can be said for the iMac

To put a different spin on things, we have people complaining in the MBP forum about USB-C ports, and here we have people complaining about not using USB-C ports.

Regardless of what either company does, people will not be happy.

 

[Sam_S]

never will go back to a windows machine OS X is far superior.

Actually after only using Windows 10 for the last few days on my rMBP I am very surprised at how much windows has improved since XP (my last PC). I actually didn't have much of a choice in the switch, dropped my laptop broke the wifi card, and the dongle I brought is plug and play in Windows, and functions much better in Windows 10.

My overall impressions are good, very responsive, fast and seems to be a little faster at opening some applications then in MacOS. Only one or two small issues with the edge browser, but to be fair that was probably me just getting used to this new system. It has been a long time since I have used Windows and I can't believe how much I am enjoying the experience. Depending on what happens with the new iMacs next year I may look at building my own PC and switching to windows. I am very worried about the direction Apple is taking, especially when Microsoft is coming out with some great products.

Also the new MacBook Pros are probably out of the question for me, I can't justify the price tag, or the lack of IO. Also the loss of Magsafe is going to be very hard for me, I am shocking with my cables, as I am always out and often have to plug in at some terrible spot. Magsafe has saved me hundreds of times over years.

 

[SteveJobzniak]

@Sam_S: Believe me, Windows will just keep getting better. They're streamlining and throwing out legacy garbage and making it look better and better with the years. By Windows 11 or 12, it could be as pretty as macOS - and then what's Apple gonna do, with their outdated hardware which was only propped up by their great OS?

Sure, Windows will never be based on Unix, will never have as good of a security model (Unix permissions + microkernel), will always be the biggest malware target, will always be saddled with its weird and insane "Registry" system, will always have terrible developers designing ugly applications, etc... But I am seeing a lot of change in the Windows landscape, where it matters: The OS itself. And you don't have to use the plethora of ugly Windows applications. There's enough beautiful and slick software out there for Windows! All Windows needs now is to keep upgrading the coats of paint on their OS to make it pretty and slick like macOS. At this rate, Apple could be in serious trouble in a few more years.

By that time, Windows will have:
- Cheap, upgradeable hardware.
- Beautiful, well-built, high-end machines that match Apple's build quality nowadays.
- A beautiful OS.

And Apple will have:
- Expensive, soldered, locked-in old hardware.
- Beautiful, well-built, low-end machines.
- A beautiful OS.

And then it's game over for Apple.

At this rate, Microsoft will overtake Apple in the art-conscious crowd someday not too long from now.

My hope is that this impending doom forces Apple to wake up. Because I still love macOS and its design sense, ease of use and beautiful applications with a unified design language.

 

[Sam_S]

@Sam_S: Believe me, Windows will just keep getting better. They're streamlining and throwing out legacy garbage and making it look better and better with the years. By Windows 11 or 12, it could be as pretty as macOS - and then what's Apple gonna do, with their outdated hardware which was only propped up by their great OS?

Sure, Windows will never be based on Unix, will never have as good of a security model, will always have terrible developers designing ugly applications, etc... But I am seeing a lot of change in the Windows landscape. At this rate, Apple could be in serious trouble in a few more years.

By that time, Windows will have:
- Cheap, upgradeable hardware.
- Beautiful, well-built, high-end machines that match Apple's build quality nowadays.
- A beautiful OS.

And Apple will have:
- Expensive, soldered, locked-in old hardware.
- Beautiful, well-built, low-end machines.
- A beautiful OS.

And then it's game over for Apple.

At this rate, Microsoft will overtake Apple in the art-conscious crowd someday not too long from now.

I'm not sure if the hardware will be that upgradeable (surface line), but certainly more so compared to Apple.
The prices are on par with Apple products at the moment in NZ, that's one of the reasons I haven't jumped in just yet, I am hoping that they will come down, well to a point where I will be tempted.

To me Apple has lost that beautiful OS a bit. Things don't work as well as they used to. And they have absolutely destroyed iTunes and Apple Music. Which was my favourite application, however it just makes me so mad at the moment. Ugh Apple what are you doing, can we please just go back to Snow Leopard, probably my favourite OS.

 

[maflynn]

iFixit has their teardown of the Studio, and low and behold the hard drive is upgradeable, but this causes other thoughts to percolate back to the top.

Why in the world did MS put in a 5400RPM drive into a 3,000 - 4,000 dollar computer. I was fairly critical with Apple doing that on a 1,000 iMac, how much more should MS be castigated for using such a slow drive on a computer that costs 3x to 4x more.

 

[SteveJobzniak]

@maflynn: The Surface Studio is a Hybrid Drive (same as Apple's Fusion Drive). 128 GB of the most active data is kept on the SSD part, and the rest is kept on the HD. https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/5blm79/surface_studio_hybrid_drive_has_128gb_ssd/

Still, yeah they should have made the HD part faster... No need to conserve that power usage in a desktop computer.

 

[maflynn]

@maflynn: The Surface Studio is a Hybrid Drive (same as Apple's Fusion Drive). 128 GB of the most active data is kept on the SSD part, and the rest is kept on the HD.

I know, I saw the keynote and the discussions, but my critism stands, its ludicrous that a 3k to 4k machine would ever use a 5400rpm drive. Something that is geared to high end users not having a SSD is crazy, but to put in such a slow drive is mind boggling.

I'm a big fan of the Studio and I want one (but I'm not spending 3k on a computer), so don't get me wrong.

 

[Krevnik]

Still, yeah they should have made the HD part faster... No need to conserve that power usage in a desktop computer.

Eh, it probably isn't about power, but cost. I suspect the cheaper HDD is partially to offset the added SSD cost.

The displays in both the iMac and Surface Studio represent the current state of the art in this area, which makes it a bit tougher to build to a specific price as well. It's sitting there being the single largest piece of your BOM, probably even the majority of it.

 

[apolloa]

I know, I saw the keynote and the discussions, but my critism stands, its ludicrous that a 3k to 4k machine would ever use a 5400rpm drive. Something that is geared to high end users not having a SSD is crazy, but to put in such a slow drive is mind boggling.

I'm a big fan of the Studio and I want one (but I'm not spending 3k on a computer), so don't get me wrong.

Probably heat? A slower drive will generate a bit less heat and that base unit is stacked full! Wait till next year I say and Kaby Lake and 10 series Nvidia cards.

 

[varian55zx]

That's too bad it comes equipped with a slow spinner-

Maybe they are taking a page from Apple's book... "Rip em the F off!!"

 

[tubeexperience]

iFixit has their teardown of the Studio, and low and behold the hard drive is upgradeable, but this causes other thoughts to percolate back to the top.

Why in the world did MS put in a 5400RPM drive into a 3,000 - 4,000 dollar computer. I was fairly critical with Apple doing that on a 1,000 iMac, how much more should MS be castigated for using such a slow drive on a computer that costs 3x to 4x more.

View attachment 675299

It's a fairly expensive PC, but most of the cost probably goes to the display rather than the components inside the base.

The good news is that Microsoft used standard drives that are readily available and easily replaced by accessing that base. The base is also secured by screws rather than glued in.

 

[maflynn]

It's a fairly expensive PC, but most of the cost probably goes to the display rather than the components inside the base.

I'd say its a very expensive PC, not fairly, but aside from that, I think spending so much money, you would expect premium components throughout the machine.

Don't get me wrong, its a great machine, but I think its wrong to give MS a pass on the 5400 rpm drive, when so many people (including me) have been critical of Apple for doing the same thing on their iMacs.

As for the cost being mostly in the display, I won't dispute that, but that's really not relevant to the issue, where they're using what I would consider questionable components in a premium computer.

 

[tubeexperience]

I'd say its a very expensive PC, not fairly, but aside from that, I think spending so much money, you would expect premium components throughout the machine.

Don't get me wrong, its a great machine, but I think its wrong to give MS a pass on the 5400 rpm drive, when so many people (including me) have been critical of Apple for doing the same thing on their iMacs.

As for the cost being mostly in the display, I won't dispute that, but that's really not relevant to the issue, where they're using what I would consider questionable components in a premium computer.

That's not how I think about it.

I don't think that if it costs N dollars, it should have X features.

Rather, I find something somewhat similar and compare the prices.

In this case, it's the Wacom Cintiq 27QHD Touch ($2799.95) + Cintiq Ergo Stand ($399.95) + a PC.

Obviously, if someone find something similar to the Surface Studio, yet costs less, then I would have to reevaluate.

 

[Mac4Fun]

Have you ever heard the saying "you'll never make a silk purse out of a sows ear"? The sow in this instance being the iPad and iOS. Apple are trying to lead their customers down a dead end. They need to invest in their desktop computers and stop trying to get users to buy iToys.

This is myfeeling also. I don't want to have to buy extra things, software such as AstroPad, dongles and whatnot, to get the functionality that should already be there in the device. I have the money to buy a better product, such as the Surface Studio or Wacom Mobile Pro, so I don't have to settle for solutions that seem clumsy to me. Apple seems always to be trying to tell me what I should be liking in computer hardware.

 

[richinaus]

This is myfeeling also. I don't want to have to buy extra things, software such as AstroPad, dongles and whatnot, to get the functionality that should already be there in the device. I have the money to buy a better product, such as the Surface Studio or Wacom Mobile Pro, so I don't have to settle for solutions that seem clumsy to me. Apple seems always to be trying to tell me what I should be liking in computer hardware.

I have just been looking at the costs to go with a surface studio and book over an iMac and MBP. The funny thing is there is barely much difference in the cost with simialr specs.

BUT..... withthe surface you get the pen input, so no need for the Wacom / iPad Pro or whatever digital drawing device you use. That's save at least AU $1200.

It has me quite stumped on what to do. I know the ipad is a better tablet, but not for drawings as a Wacom. The studio is perfect for markups etc. the Apple gear has better aesthetics and I still think build quality too.

My main apps are both windows and Mac transferable so no difference there.
I quite like win 10 and feels like a productive OS where I find MacOS a little distracting.

It is absolutely great that MS has turned a corner and is now making me really question my mac hardware after 20 years of using it. I am loving the choice but am also in analysis paralysis.

Deep in my heart I really know surface would be better for me.... but don't want to split up with Apple. Its like so odd relationship

 

[Wowereit]

Don't get me wrong, its a great machine, but I think its wrong to give MS a pass on the 5400 rpm drive, when so many people (including me) have been critical of Apple for doing the same thing on their iMacs.

I never quite got why they stick to using notebook GPUs on the iMac while also crippling cooling.
Now MS is doing the same on the Surface Studio, but they took it a step further and even use notebook CPUs.

It's a desktop PC, you won't carry it around with you anyway so weight isn't a concern.
They are doing this for making the design appear a little bit sleeker - form over function.
Honestly I don't even think that anybody would care if the Surface Studio's base was larger.

It's the same as with Apple's thinness-fetish. They probably circle jerk themselves for their thin design but in the real world nobody would give a damn if their iMac was thicker.